Selling diseased animals

[Megan]

I need to go back and reread most of the thread, I'm just skimming while at work. I haven't been extremely active the past 2/3 years in the chinchilla community/online community - I have not heard of this before today.

One of my biggest complaints has ALWAYS been the "hush hush" of issues. We know word WILL get out eventually, and it will be far worse of an outcome when people know the fact has been hidden/covered up. I don't understand why people just don't come out and say "yes I'm having issues, I'm working on getting them treated" and be done with it. It's less damaging to their business then selling sick/infected animals or lying about the issues they had/are having.

Has this been more of a West coast thing? Has it been documented on the east coast yet? I will have to see if Dawn's question was answered about it transmitting from horse-person-chin as a lot of people (including myself) own horses and chinchillas. Even more so what is the likely hood of it coming from hay? If we support local farmers and if they use natural fertilizer (manure) can the bacteria be in the manure, get into the ground and into the feed supply?

 

[ticklechin]

The Strep equi germ can survive in contaminated soil, water troughs, feed buckets, and tack. The germ can even be transferred by people from one location to another.Remember, the infection can be transferred on clothing, tack, vehicle tires, or hands. Due to Strangles' extremely contagious character, seek veterinary care immediately if suspected. . Often, the veterinarians prefer to examine the animal away from their clinic to avoid contamination.

So reading on this since my questions have not been answered, it has around a 10% mortality rate as long as it is a "simple infection" but complications are frequent and deadly, the infection control of it is very difficult and the illness it brutal, the flippant responses to peoples concerns leads me to believe this will not be controlled, good luck with this.
http://vetmed.tamu.edu/news/pet-tal...ng-equine-distemper-and-purpura-haemorrhagica

 

[Spoof]

as a lot of people (including myself) own horses and chinchillas.

This is what I worry about too. I am surprised that in the last 15 years of owning horses that I've never seen this, shoot my last horse broke into my chin room multiple times. He was never vaccinated for Strangles though as it wasn't a big issue in this area back then.

Even more so what is the likely hood of it coming from hay? If we support local farmers and if they use natural fertilizer (manure) can the bacteria be in the manure, get into the ground and into the feed supply?

I don't think this is very likely, this article says it only survives in the soil for three days. Nobody around here fertilizes with horse poop anyway. Horses that have had an infection sometimes shed it for awhile afterwards though. That's how it comes home from shows - no clinical signs at the show and you come home and your horse is down for the count. Once the vet is out you find out that barn X had an outbreak a few weeks prior to the show that they just got done cleaning up....

I don't think that there are many that would sell a known sick animal

Enough to contaminate more herds in the last year. If you were in the first wave of this you now know the animals you sold contaminated others... I mean geez they came from somewhere.

 

[jags]

I have not heard anything of this until I just read this. Sure would like more info on it and to talk with people having dealt with it. It does not sound like the same symptoms that I was told about in the two other threads. Maybe we can get a University to do some research and dig further into this issue. I would like more facts and then to be able to consult with some of the vets I know.

 

[Vyxxin]

Can someone clarify...even with treatment, any herd that has had this...will be carriers? Even if the animals are all showing healthy, and have finished treatment...it really still would not be safe to sell any animal at the facility to another herd? Basically, the herd is tainted and (from what I'm understanding reading here) you'd basically have to get rid of the entire herd...sanitize everything in the facility...and start over new? And THEN you'd have to worry about buying animals from a "tainted" herd? AND when you got rid of your entire herd...basically the only "real" option would be to euthanize the entire herd as if you sold ANY chinchilla that'd be potentially contaminating other chinchillas "out there" and contributing to the problem?

 

[saphire]

Basically, none of us really know if we have tainted animals in our herds!!
Where do we go from here?

 

[6Dusters]

I have read this thread several times in the last couple days. One thing about the illness symptoms Mark mentioned, has me asking questions and seeking answers. And I would also like to know the answer Ange posted above, "if you treated your animals, does that mean they are a carrier??"

Say you never have had a problem and go to shows with your animals and your animal is a carrier.....how the heck would you know?

And lets say the symptoms have never shown themselves in your herd ever. But you sell one of your animals and then it goes home with the person and it infects their herd because it gets stressed out. I only mention stress as it seems to be the possible trigger factor to Marks postings. Or is it something else that sets it off? My goodness! You would feel horrible.

Would like to know more about the illness that Mark posted about earlier. And would love to see it published to help all of us in the case it reared its ugly head on our animals.

May I suggest Randy that the MCBA perhaps include the illness and its treatment as part of its educational seminars? Once diagnosed of course. With a vet that is willing to speak on the topic?
And of course if possible a piece put in the MCBA magazine?
Thanks in advance for considering it,
Alex

 

[Spoof]

Basically, none of us really know if we have tainted animals in our herds!!
Where do we go from here?

With this stuff you'll know if you have it in your herd. You're either battling it or you are not. The act of bringing the new chins in seems to bring it out. Just introducing carriers brought down the herd I first heard about it in. Those new animals remained healthy but the existing herd got it quick.

This is a good question for Mark, did anyone say how long it took before the rest of the herd started coming down with it? Did any of the new animals ever show signs, or did they get sick too?

 

[jags]

I am already looking into it and have spoken with a couple of vets. I am also trying to get some University to take on the project of doing research on this and other problems, sponsored by MCBA if need be. May also be looking for animal donations to these research projects to get things going.

 

[mark miller]

There are a lot of questions still out there regarding this disease. Unfortunately, I don't have all the answers to your questions. I still have many questions I would like to gather more good information on. A lot of the problems with what is being assumed about this disease is what has been proven about strangles in horses. I'm still not convinced that this is the exact same bacteria affecting chinchillas as strangles in horses. There are many similarities but, without more info and lab reports from infected chinchillas we are all just making assumptions and our best guesses on a lot of these symptoms with this disease. I'm continuing to monitor my friends progress with treating his chinchilla herd. He has seen many visually improve since his first treatment of Sulfadimethoxine. He is just finishing up his second treatment. I will continue to monitor his success and it's effectiveness in ridding the bacteria from his animals. I went and saw his herd about a week ago and he no longer had any chins with lumps under their chins and all the chins whose eyes had been swollen shut now were open and the swelling gone. It is too early to tell if all the chins will be cured and if the disease will continue to reoccur and show up in more chins in the herd in the future or not. There are breeder's out there that have been dealing with this for a couple years that probably have more information about this then I've been able to gather. I do believe it is possible to completely cure a entire herd of chinchillas with treatment of animals and complete disinfecting of all cages and environment. If this is done diligently and thoroughly in a consistent treatment program, there is no reason to believe that there would be any future carriers of the disease ever come from that herd. The problem is there is not an established proven protocol for this treatment plan for people to follow. I feel we are still in the early stages of this disease with chinchillas. We need to have more conclusive testing done on this exact strain of bacteria affecting chinchillas and establish a proven protocol for most successful treatment.

 

[jags]

Mark or anyone else for that matter, on the herd you are dealing with have they done any cultures or necropolises?

 

[mark miller]

On my friends herd, the current one I'm monitoring, no he has not had any tested. There has been 2 others that I personally talked to that have had animals tested at university labs. I have not seen those results personally, only have visited with them about it and was told that the results were confirmed to be a Strepptoccus bacteria similar to what is common in horses.

 

[jags]

Any way of getting a copy of them to go over with the people I am working with?

 

[KissThis]

This is what I was asking, the article states it was strangles-that is strep equi sub equi, which is what I think Spoof is bringing up-strep equi sub zoo is not that big of deal according to what I read, easily treated with a low mortality rate.

I have this in my herd - flame away.

it has been isolated as strep equi subtype zoo, not strep equi subtype equi.

It is not fatal, only when people start culling. It does not seem to be nearly as contagious as strangles in horses, and it seems to be more of a contact transmission than an airborne. It can present as swollen, weepy eyes, abscess under the chin (or in any other lymph node), or a combination of the two. Most of the chins act completely normal and don't stop eating or drinking. The abscesses can be easy to miss when they are small, especially if you have a breeding collar on or with a large, well furred chin.

This can be carried, but it isn't always. Same with strangles in horses, it can be carried but the mechanism isn't well understood, nor is it carried all the time. The carriers of both seem to be immune to the disease themselves.

The problem with culturing bacteria, but not subtyping is that it comes back as a strep species which is generally treatable with the sulfa class of antibiotics. Unfortunately the strep equi sub zoo, which is what we are dealing with, is resistant to sulfa antibiotics and so they will only be somewhat effective in treating it. Not sure if this contributing to the carrier problem. Strep equi sub zoo can be treated with a number of other antibiotics such as chloramphenicol, erythromycin, gentamicin, and a few others.

Here is a paper that gives you some idea of the antibiotic susceptibility of strep equi sub zoo. (http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/hrs6289 )

As far as why I haven't talked about it, I am still gathering information and trying to figure out the best way to treat and prevent this. There is lots of misinformation on there and people tend to panic and stop listening. My plan was to figure out which antibiotic works best, what my rate of carriers is, and how to deal with it long term and then publish a comprehensive article in the ECBC and MCBA magazines.

Until I have this completely figured out and treated I am not showing or selling any animals.

Yes, I do know where it came from, no I am not posting that information.

 

[Snickers]

I have this in my herd - flame away.

Until I have this completely figured out and treated I am not showing or selling any animals.

At least you are taking responsibility on not showing or selling I admire that.

 

[jags]

Should be no flaming as far as I am concerned it takes a lot more of a person to come forward with a problem than one that keeps it all to them selves. If you have any info you would like to share so I may be more able to help you and others please contact me. I have been talking with some vets and a lab but I really have little info as no one has shared what details they have so I have very little to go on. I am sure I can get the MCBA board behind me to do some research once we have more to go on.

 

[ticklechin]

I agree with the above posts, this is too important of issue to make people divided.

 

[KissThis]

Thanks for the support. My goal is to get a solution to this and publish it as widely as possible so people stop needlessly culling herds and have an effective method for treatment in the future. I seriously doubt that this is a new disease and I doubt that it will completely disappear, but I do think it is 100% manageable and treatable.

Given the transmission patterns I have seen in my herd I would say that it is very, very unlikely that this would be passed around at a show unless someone brought an animal with obviously pus filled eyes or a weeping abscess to the show. I have had this show up in colonies and had only one animal in the colony impacted, even after the abscess ruptured, the rest of the colony was fine and months later has not shown signs of developing this. If it were as contagious as has been suggested this would have shown up in all of my animals and is has not. So everyone should breathe and culture (and subtype, culturing alone is not enough) and odd infections they get and then proceed rationally.

 

[Spoof]

I absolutely agree. There is no reason to flame or degrade anyone.

Equi Zoo is an interesting one, I've read about it popping up in dogs, cats, humans, etc. even when there are no infected equines in the area. Very curious.

 

[ticklechin]

The question I had to Mark is was the exact strain involved discovered? The strain his person dealt with is treated with a Sulfa-more strep equi equi since that is the treatment of choice but the strain kiss is dealing with is treated with chloramphenicol, and is sulfa resistant-strep equi zoo. If the sub typing was not done it needs to be done to determine if there are two infections with two different treatments.