Selling diseased animals

[chinsNdobermans]

I have additional information that I've gathered as well on this disease. I hope to have it all detailed in a informative article very soon. I will submit the article to both MCBA and ECBC Magazines.

This is a VERY GOOD step forward. Thank you for your diligence, Mark.

 

[Snickers]

Thanks Mark for the information.

 

[AZChins]

That is very good to hear! I'm hoping that I won't see any chins with this issue, but if I do I know I can treat it. I was really worried that this strain of strep couldn't be treated with meds.

But, knock on wood, I haven't had even a single chin with anything like this. I must be very lucky, I've brought in chins from other herds with no problems. The last time was about a year ago and each and every one of the 20 I brought in are alive and doing well, and making a lot of babies for us.

 

[saphire]

I agree with Dawn, it is great that Spoof brought this health issue up.

Wish things where no so secretive, but at the same time I understand the breeders, pet owners and rescues (health issues does not discriminate ) for keeping quiet.
A side note : The word Secrecy, is not reserved for the breeding community, it is also for the pet owners and rescues.

Putting myself in the situation:
If I had the situation; don't know how long the chin have been carrying this bacteria, basically impossilble to know.
So, all the animals may be carriers. One shows the symtoms, get it diagnosed, get the result and here we are. From there, where does one go in the community.
The unhealthy competitivness between breeders, pet owners, rescues surely does not help to speak of these health issues. All try to be the best breeder, owner and rescue.
The Assuming, judgment, bullying in the pet world/breeders is killing our chinchillas, not the individual.
Only to make a point I am writing in bold:
we are dealing with LIVE creatures at that both horses and chinchillas prey animals that do not speak and hide sicknes well, therefore IMPOSSIBLE to detect until it is far gone.
Can anyone honestly tell me they would be 100% comfortable coming out with this. I know I can’t , I would mention it, but will not be confident in my fellow chinchilla community (breeder , pet and rescue) to be truthfully open minded and non judgemental towards the whole situation . Some will try to distroy me and my reputation. I would have great fears….. but I trust in the people that know me.
Therefore, so secretive is due to the chinchilla community (breeders AND pet owners) the way one has/is treated when being open of a health situation.

If this is a bacteria that is fairly knew in chinchillas, I doubt research is done and over with.

If from the beginning of breeding/rescues/pet owning, we all worked in the same direction, possibly the knowledge of the chinchilla’s all around would be well advanced to what it is today.

It would be awesome, if we just took the situation and dealt with it. Period!!!
Let’s be realistic, as rescues, pet owners, breeders, chinchilla health issues all belong to us. It also belongs to us to work together. This without assumption, judgement, bullying, finger pointing.
Blame, assumtion, judgement, are distructive.

Thank you Mark! A step foward in the evolution of chinchilla’s health.

NOTE: Now to knowingly sell animals that have health issues,,, well , this is a place where I have no understanding. Maybe I will meet someone that chose to do so and willing to talk to me about it to help me see their reasonning behind it.

My way of seeing things.

 

[RDZCRanch]

I would put down the infected animals and anything they came into contact with because you can not visibly identify carriers and it is "silently" carried. If you read the articles I posted you'd see there is a documented case of this in chinchillas within the last few months.

You do understand that silent carriers CAN be treated, right? If you treat all the animals that came in contact with an infected animal in the last 6 weeks you should be able to treat all the carriers. Where you run into a problem is if people don't use bleach or practice other hygienic regimens to completely erradicate the problem.

During one of the original outbreaks two years ago it wiped out about 30% of the owner's herd when they brought the new animals in, antibiotics and all. It wasn't immediate, it ran on for about six months. Guess what? Ya'll bought those animals and it infected other herds so clearly it is silently carried. Why would you do that to another rancher? Now instead of 3-4 herds with it we've got a couple dozen (or more).

For each animal that "survives" you are potentially harboring a carrier that you are now going to sell back into the population... that is not kosher no matter how you look at it. At least be honest and say yea, I have had it. Then the buyer can decide if they want to take the risk.

You have basically begun a witch hunt to out and discredit any breeders who have had this in their herd. What's worse is you are trying to imply that an entire state worth of breeders are in on some conspiracy to spread this across the states. Some of my friends dealt with it and they identified the problem by getting it cultured immediately and treating it. "Ya'll" probably haven't heard of it because it has not been an ongoing problem. It happened well over a year ago with no new instances in any of the herds since they were treated.

In modern times it isn't too bad on horses, many do survive but it often takes both surgery and antibiotics. I believe the death rate was so high in the original outbreaks because they didn't know what it was and were only hitting it with antibiotics.

How you chose to deal with it is up to you. If it is your pet, the surgery and antibiotic combo appears to have the best success rate. If you are a breeder that wholesales... you are doing the chinchilla and horse world a great disservice. If you sell overseas you need to think real hard on what this disease will do to the chinchilla and horse populations. There are some countries that don't have it yet and it could cause a huge financial and biological mess.

You do understand that horses are structurally much different than chinchillas in terms of muscles so an abscess on the neck would be more likely to require surgery in a horse? The abscess on a horse neck can also become so proportionally large that it would not be economical or quick to attempt to treat it with antibiotics alone.

 

[saphire]

Tabitha,
thanks for the following, it was something I wanted to ask.
Silent carriers CAN be treated. If you treat all the animals that came in contact with an infected animal in the last 6 weeks you should be able to treat all the carriers. Where you run into a problem is if people don't use bleach or practice other hygienic regimens to completely erradicate the problem.

 

[Spoof]

There is a reason I started this in the debate section. This is a debate, not a scientific fact finding. )

You have basically begun a witch hunt to out and discredit any breeders who have had this in their herd. What's worse is you are trying to imply that an entire state worth of breeders are in on some conspiracy to spread this across the states.

I have never implied an entire state of anything, my knowledge of it (not fact, debate) started in the state of CA in one herd - who was very vocal about it. I don't know where the animals went after that but I have been hearing about it in the midwest and north and then this one case in the south.

"Ya'll" probably haven't heard of it because it has not been an ongoing problem. It happened well over a year ago with no new instances in any of the herds since they were treated.

I find this interesting, what about this statement of Mark's; It can be controlled within a herd with treatment of animals and disinfecting cages and environment. It is not easy to completely eliminate in a herd and can reoccur from time to time in stressed or weakened animals. So, you need to constantly be on lookout for any of these symptoms to appear once you've had it and treated it in your chinchilla herd. It is not uncommon to have to treat the herd repeatedly from time to time if symptoms arise.

So, I am to believe that an issue that can "reoccur from time to time" is controlled?

Do you want one of these in your herd? It sounds like a very expensive exhausting experience to deal with a herd full of these to me. Especially if you have to continually medicate and it will pop up from time to time.

The abscess on a horse neck can also become so proportionally large that it would not be economical or quick to attempt to treat it with antibiotics alone.

The surgery I am referring to drains the lymph nodes in the neck so the animal can breathe. Otherwise they suffocate to death - hence the nickname "Strangles". Horses are often not treated at all beyond draining the lymph nodes because antibiotics have no effect on how the bacteria runs it's course. Just good husbandry and keeping the drainage sites clean. Antibiotics are sometimes used if the drainage sites have secondary infection issues.

It would benefit everyone to read up on the different strains of strep and how they are handled. )

 

[AZChins]

So not to point out the obvious in this situation, but basically we can do our best to keep this from happening with keeping things clean, being observant about chins we bring into our herds, practicing quarantine and going to the vet for treatment of sick animals. In effect, doing everything that we should have been doing all along.

I guess it's good to know the particular strain of bacteria so we can point vets in the right direction. It just seems like no one should get too worked up over it if antibiotics can still be effective.

 

[EternallyCynical]

I don't know much about strangles in chins specifically, but I am a horse person and DO know about it in horses. Its an awful, awful disease, and its really freaking hard to contain. If you have a horse with strangles in your barn you are going to be taking some SERIOUS quarantine measures. I can see how it would spread through herds of chins like wildfire.... its incredibly contagious. I'm not a breeder and I only own the one chin.... I know that if he were to contract this disease, if meds weren't working and it recurred after surgery, I would probably have to make the decision to put him to sleep.... at that point, its not responding to treatment and I wouldn't want to prolong any suffering, as hearbreaking as it would be to say goodbye. Since I only own the one, I don't have to worry about spreading it to others, and I wouldn't give up on him without trying, but if the options were exhausted... If I were a breeder, however, I would not be selling ANY animals if one of my herd cropped up with this - it just spreads way too easily. I'd be isolating the sick chin and any chins the sick chin had been in contact with in an entirely different part of the house, disinfecting EVERYTHING, and changing clothes/disinfecting myself before handling any chins assumed healthy. None of them would leave except for vet visits and none would be interacting between sick/healthy groups. Selling animals from a herd with a known carrier is downright irresponsible...

 

[ticklechin]

Are we sure we are talking about the same disease-Streptococcus equi subspecies zooepidemicus is common in small mammals and easily treated, streptoccoccus equi subspecies equi is strangles, pretty deadly in small mammals. So what bacteria are you talking about Mark and Tabitha?

 

[Spoof]

It just seems like no one should get too worked up over it if antibiotics can still be effective.

Antibiotics alone are not effective in some cases.

From the vet that had the recent case in Louisiana;

I typically see this in guinea pigs, but I did see it
in a chinchilla 2 weeks ago. Owner opted for surgery. It was a very
difficult, involved surgery, but she is doing well. The infection is
still there, but it's stable. This article was actually pretty good.
Showed that even with strict quarantine, things can still happen out
of the owners hands. Caught early, I find surgery can be very
successful. Owners need to realize that instead of trying the medical
approach. To date, I have not had a 100% success with drugs alone.
As far as being contagious, it spreads by direct contact. This owner
is aware they can never have her with another chin. Good hand washing
techniques between animals and cage cleaning and not sharing dirty bowls
or play areas will help. Strep is fairly easy to kill with soap and bleach and pretty much any regular cleaning supplies.​

The article they are referring to is the one I posted in the first post.

In this case this chin can never be housed with another chinchilla as it will be a life-long carrier even when it is not displaying symptoms.

Also good to note that it can infect guinea pigs if you have any as pets.

 

[mark miller]

Dawn, I have not been able to verify that this strep bacteria in chinchillas is the exact same strain as strep equi in horses. The breeder's that I've talked to all indicated to me that their lab results were streptococcus bacteria similar to what is commonly found in horses. That's all I was told. All of my research on this disease has been on its effects in chinchillas primarily. There are many similarities to strep equi in horses but, some differences as well. The abscesses in chinchillas don't typically strangle them and horses have a lot of discharge from their nose with this disease that has not been the case with chinchillas. I personally believe it is a similar strain of strep but, not exactly the same as strep equi. That's just my personal opinion based on my findings and what I've seen with my friends chins symptoms.

Tara, the reason reoccurance of this disease commonly happens is because it is very difficult to be certain every chin in the herd has been treated effectively with the antibiotic and every inch of cage has been disinfected of the bacteria. In theory, Tabitha is correct that you can eliminate the bacteria completely with proper care. Unfortunately, that is very difficult in a larger size herd to do the first time you treat them. It definitely can be done, it just commonly takes more than one treatment cycle to completely eradicate.

 

[ticklechin]

The way I interpret this thread, the chin that died in Spoofs article was confirmed to have strangles, the chins in the herds have not been diagnosed with strangles, just strep, not equi and no subspecies.

 

[Spoof]

Thanks Mark, hopefully what will come out of this whole ordeal is how it has been spread in the past so that we can prevent it from spreading in the future.

Unfortunately if it wasn't spreading it would have been contained years ago, and since we have a case of some sort of strep affecting your friend's ranch in the last year it has not been appropriately contained.

Horses have a nasal discharge because the trachea and the esophagus are separate all the way down to the stomach/lungs.

Chinchillas can swallow their nasal discharge so it makes sense that it wouldn't drip out the nose like it does on a horse.

Their anatomy is different but still interesting that it can make the cross-species jump to them and guinea pigs and occasionally humans. )

 

[mark miller]

http://suite101.com/a/chinchillas-and-the-strangles-a282106

Here is my feelings after reading this article.

The findings were stated as streptococcus bacteria. It does not state anywhere that it was tested and verified to be the exact same strep strain as strep equi in horses. My feeling is the author made that assumption based on the chinchilla having the abscess on the lymph nodes which is what horses with Strangles get. Furthermore, they basically killed this chin by treating it like a horse and doing 2 unnecessary surgeries on its neck and the abscess. This was because of unfamiliarity with this disease in chinchillas I'm sure. All they had to do was drain the abscess daily and treat chin with a Sulfa drug until the infection dissipated. They treated it like Strangles in a horse because I'm sure that was their experience with this disease. Another example of why we need to educate and learn from each other's findings and experiences when it comes to chinchillas and their ailments.

 

[EternallyCynical]

http://suite101.com/a/chinchillas-and-the-strangles-a282106

Here is my feelings after reading this article.

The findings were stated as streptococcus bacteria. It does not state anywhere that it was tested and verified to be the exact same strep strain as strep equi in horses. My feeling is the author made that assumption based on the chinchilla having the abscess on the lymph nodes which is what horses with Strangles get. Furthermore, they basically killed this chin by treating it like a horse and doing 2 unnecessary surgeries on its neck and the abscess. This was because of unfamiliarity with this disease in chinchillas I'm sure. All they had to do was drain the abscess daily and treat chin with a Sulfa drug until the infection dissipated. They treated it like Strangles in a horse because I'm sure that was their experience with this disease. Another example of why we need to educate and learn from each other's findings and experiences when it comes to chinchillas and their ailments.

Horses treated for strangles are NOT subjected to neck surgery, at least not that I've ever heard. Horses aren't easy to operate on, being big animals not suited to lying down for long periods of time that certain surgeries require. In horses, the abscesses are lanced and drained, not surgically removed. This chinchilla was not treated in the same manner as a horse.... the only other thing they said they did in the article was provide antibiotics.... clearly these would not have been the same dosage as those used for a horse and the type of antibiotic used wasn't stated, but it seems to me that antibiotics would be a fairly logical course of action for an infection caused by bacteria... or at least that's my thought. Even if its not the same substrain of bacteria, its still bacteria. Not saying that they were RIGHT to do two neck surgeries, but this was not defaulting to horse treatment...

 

[AZChins]

So it's possible that this case of the "Strangles" was just and isolated incident with that one particular chinchilla and the rest of the cases were just run of the mill strep that can be treated fairly easily with antibiotics?

I'm confused now. Is there an epidemic of exotic horse strep or is it just strep that is floating around everywhere and causes problems occasionally? Did the person in the article actually get a true lab confirmation on the strain or was that just something that the vet decided? That article is far from being a scientific paper and it deals with one chin.

Disease causing bacteria is everywhere, we are never going to rid ourselves of it completely. Should we be worried about this or not? Should we be prepared for an onslaught of sick chins or just keep doing what we're doing and not let sick chins leave our homes and barns for shows or to be placed with other animals?

A lot of us have a lot to lose if our entire herds get sick with some incurable bacteria so we take this very seriously and need to be able to take action. Now I have my doubts if this is something I should even be concerned with at all.

 

[Spoof]

There are two species of horse strep, S. equi and S. Zoo. I rarely hear about Zoo but know it is carried in many horses and pops up in foals when the immune system is weakened. It is responsive to penicillin and easy to treat. If the vet says it's a form of equine strep and it's spreading to others, it causes lymph swelling and is not easily controlled with Penicillin then it is S. equi (Strangles).

This is not isolated and it has happened before per the vets. It is just far more common in guinea pigs, probably because they are a more common pet. The vet did clear up this morning that there was a case four years ago from a horse, this new one is from a chinchilla that was from Petco and purchased 3-4 years ago. The owners have no contact with horses and they don't know where it came from.

Prior to three years ago I had heard of things going through herds like bordetella, ringworm, URI's, MRSA, etc but never strep, and with the exception of ringworm never heard of anything herd hopping like this.

Obviously I'm concerned, I closed my herd back when I heard it had infected more than just a couple others.

Of course to worry or not to worry is up to you. ) This is just to inform everyone of what has been running around behind the scenes the last few years. I have offered to pay for the culture of any statewide cases that come up as I feel that it is going to become a bigger issue and would like to determine exactly what it is.

 

[ticklechin]

Are we sure we are talking about the same disease-Streptococcus equi subspecies zooepidemicus is common in small mammals and easily treated, streptoccoccus equi subspecies equi is strangles, pretty deadly in small mammals. So what bacteria are you talking about Mark and Tabitha?

This is what I was asking, the article states it was strangles-that is strep equi sub equi, which is what I think Spoof is bringing up-strep equi sub zoo is not that big of deal according to what I read, easily treated with a low mortality rate.

 

[Zoaea]

Back to the OP, I don't think that there are many that would sell a known sick animal as you would have to have an antisocial personality type to do so. But chins do hide illness and also there are incubation periods. Also I am sure in whole selling it might be easier to miss a sick animal or that they get contaminated from the other animals beings sold.

But I would expect a breeder to tell me the full history of an animal I am buying. Things like birth injuries, if it needed hand feeding and why, family genetic issues, and the like. I think something like, "had a respiratory infection about 6 months ago" and the treatment, would just naturally fall into that category. So if I were selling animals I would include any past diseases/surgeries/injury that were treated in their history. If your herd got sick a year prior, and you had animals born after the sickness passed, there is no way that they would be carriers unless at some point they had the infection. So, it would be more concerning in buying older breeders.

Also, I wanted to mention that in many diseases the infected individual can harbor the bacteria/virus for lengths of time and shed it but not be a life time carrier. Only in some would it be life time and this would vary from disease to disease making it that much more important to diagnose the exact organism for your records and treatment options. It is also important for this reason to finish antibiotic treatments for the full duration and not stopping if the animal appears well (that is how resistant strains get bred). Typically virus seems to be easier to be a carrier with no symptoms, but bacteria can sometime find a niche in the gut, respiratory or even skin after an illness. Much like many of the world population has tuberculosis but only when weakened does it express it's self. In this case carriers can be cured of the Bactria too, which is why I think Mark posted a treatment that covered a whole herd rather than just those you notice being sick. And why you would want to disinfect the cages/water bottles multiple times.

Contamination: in caring for a herd with quarantined animals, it also does no good if you handle one group and then the other without cleaning yourself. The biggest spread of disease in the herd when it is not airborne would be you the human. This is also a bacterium and there for can more likely infect a human even if the symptoms are different. I am always worried I'll bring something home from work (nursing) so often I change clothing even before I go home (either that or first thing in the door) because it is not just your hands that collect germs. Think about when you clean a cage, the dust lands on you, also dirty hay or sawdust bits. In a sick animal all these would contain shed bacteria. If I had sick animals, first I would quarantine, then when I took care of my animals I would care for the healthy first, and then the sick. After the sick I would change my clothes, then wash my hands, (shower to be honest) and then put on something clean before doing anything else. I would also keep contaminated clothes separate from my normal wash, and add some bleach to the load.

PS- I read all the linked pages first so I might have added responses that actually belonged in other threads. xP