Newbies Breeding

[ticklechin]

If there is no standard to achieve, which seems to be what is coming with the attitude of breeding whatever, those whatever chins are going to be the new norm.

 

[mark miller]

The standard to achieve is different with every breeder. When I started I wanted to raise a 1st place animal at a show. When I did a felt proud and accomplished, then it was a class champion, then Grand show champion, then National GSC. Some people are content with raising as many blue ribbon animals as they can. Some breeders standard is based on pelt price which is evaluated differently then a live animal at a show. Some breeders standard is just happy, healthy animals. The reason "quality" is a relative term is because what's quality to you might not be quality to me. A perfect example was the story I told about beating Ralph in standards on the show table. My animal was picked by the judges that day as the best of show. His point was his would have been a better pelt. Which one was better quality? I think mine was, he thinks his was. It's really all in how you look at it and what you're striving for in your own breeding program.

 

[mishalaa]

If Ralph wanted to be judged on pelt criteria, he should have entered it in a pelt show. That is the only relativity "quality" should have, if it's being judged as a pelt or an animal, there are shows and criteria for both. If breeders just want to breed happy, healthy animals and that is how "quality" is defined, then every animal that makes it to a show alive would get a first place.

 

[threewingedfury]

I believe that the way to go about is educating, but it will not always work for everyone. Sometimes you just have to be harsh in doing so. When I first joined Chins n Quills, I was absolutely shut down for everything that I did in chinchilla breeding. I was called many names, told off, laughed at and I absolutely cried for a couple of days because of how I was treated. I couldn't believe people could be so cruel. I had researched many things about chinchillas before I purchased my initial few, but I had searched in the wrong places - didn't realize this until it was too late. I knew nothing but backyard breeders in my area and the breeders that I did find that were serious just didn't seem to have the time of day for me - they were more interested in trying to make big $$$ off of selling the rarest mutation to me at a high price because they knew I was lost. For quite some time, I wanted to give up, but I didn't. I stuck around just because I'm a stubborn soul and I just read the forums and finally found a show that was within 5 hours of me. I went to the show and realized that the folks on the forum were right - I wasn't breeding correctly. I had chinchillas with pedigrees, but it meant nothing - I was breeding for the wildest mutations, couldn't stand the look of a gray chinchilla and my animals looked like crap. If I hadn't stuck around and had blown off what everyone had said to me - I would have continued to breed crap and wouldn't have made it to the show. I was absolutely ashamed at what I had bred. So I started over.

I went to some of the top breeders on the east coast, purchased top show quality animals and started my own little herd that I was proud of. I continued to go to as many shows as I possibly could within a 12 hour radius and I think I have done well so far. Others disagree, but you can't please everyone. I may not have had a GSC yet, but hopefully I'll get there one day. It's a long process and takes time. There are many on this forum that still call me a BYB or a "crap breeder" because I grew in numbers too quickly, because they believe I worship a particular rancher, because they just don't like me in general and still remember how I started out and how I'll "never change", how I don't fit in the "clique", because they don't agree with this I do and that I do, etc etc etc - now that gets old. This is now what works for me, and as long as I'm congratulated by long time ranchers and I get compliments on my animals from those that have been breeding for years and taking the top of the table - I'm doing something right. Sometimes you have to realize that you have to change for the better by listening to others advice, and then find your own niche. I'm constantly changing my herd around and re-evaluating to try to produce the best that I can. My old goal was to produce many mutations, now my herd consists of about 70% standards and I'm trying to cull many of my mutations to work with standards only in quite a few lines because it's so hard to get a quality standard where I am. Completely different from my initial reactions to a standard gray. This goal isn't every small breeder's - but it's mine. I want to do well with certain mutations, but I want to work primarily with standards now. Everything in this business comes from trial and error and sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. I'm no expert by any means nor will I ever be, but I hope that one day I will be known for some of the animals that I have produced. If I hadn't listened to the constructive criticism on the forum when I started out - I would still be breeding crappy chinchillas and trying to purchase every mutation possible. There's a difference in listening to what is right and wrong in chinchilla breeding, and then listening to opinions and personal beliefs.

 

[mark miller]

Mish, don't misunderstand me. Showing is a great gauge for quality. But, where do you draw the line for what is good quality in your opinion? Is it 2nd place or higher, is it 1st place or higher, do you judge quality by the attributes your looking for in your animals and disregard how they do at the show? Is the model for optimum quality in my head the same as in Ralph Shoots head. No, he liked really strong long furred animals, I like strong shorter furred nice textured animals. He liked x-dark clear black tipped animals. I like medium-dark to dark clear blue tipped animals. Our standards for best "quality" were different which made it very interesting when we showed against one another on what the judge was going to pick that day for best quality. Everyone in their own mind has an expectation of a certain quality level they want to produce in their offspring. That is why quality is relative to each and every breeder. What might be one persons opinion of great quality will not be the same as the next persons opinion.

 

[ticklechin]

Is there not a set of standards then in chinchilla showing? I assumed, to become a judge, you had to judge chinchillas to a certain standard and if there are no chins at the show that meet it then a GSC is not awarded. If you say quality is all up to the breeders opinion then why bother having shows or quality chins if it can be that loose of a interpretation.

 

[mark miller]

Tiffany, thank you for posting. Your post includes everything we're debating about. Did you need constructive criticism and good advice when you asked questions on this forum as a new breeder? Absolutely, and those things were positive and helpful to you and others viewing as well. Did you need to be called names and degraded publicly on this forum for asking those questions? Absolutely not!! Thankfully you were tough skinned enough to get beyond that and become a responsible breeder of chinchillas and not give up after the hurtful personal things that were said to you by other members. This is my point that not all "newbie" members and breeders should be treated this way on this forum for simply asking questions in an attempt to be educated. We can all educate with respect and not degradation.

 

[threewingedfury]

Is there not a set of standards then in chinchilla showing? I assumed, to become a judge, you had to judge chinchillas to a certain standard and if there are no chins at the show that meet it then a GSC is not awarded. If you say quality is all up to the breeders opinion then why bother having shows or quality chins if it can be that loose of a interpretation.

There is a set of standards, but each person, including judges, have their own set standards. You could set up a show with 20 animals and have them judged by 5 different judges on the same day and there will be many differences, possibly even differences in GSCs. Some judges look for clarity over size, some judges who like size will knock a small chin down on the table no matter how nice the other qualities are, all judges are different. Same goes for each breeder - when I go to different ranches and look through animals - I know what I'm looking for to put in my herd and many times I don't pick the animals that the ranchers pick out for me because it doesn't fit into my herd. Each rancher has a different goal, a different feeling of quality. One person likes dark animals more than others, the next likes larger animals more than others, the next likes shorter furred animals - it all depends on the lines and the person raising them. This is why many ranchers know how to play the judges - because they have learned over the years what qualities certain judges like.

 

[mishalaa]

That explains your point better, Mark, thank you. Personally, I focus on sapphires so I prefered to breed standards which are much lighter than most, and while they did well in light classes (MCBA showing), they never went any higher because they lack the eye appeal that darker standards have. I have started adding darker standards so that I can compete in the standard classes, but I still have my lighter animals as well. So yes, I see quality (for this, read usability) in light standards that many do not.

However... ^^

That is getting to the finer point of it - breeders making pairing decisions based on fur length or tip darkness, I would say, have passed the initial hurdles of understanding basic quality. I am speaking about the breeders who completely reject qualities (not necessarily "quality") such as density, conformation, clarity - things which are broadly accepted in the show circles as "quality" - and instead make up their own criteria and breed for qualities like temperament or as many mutation colors as they can get in one animal - the breeders who think the TOV tan white sapphire that sits on your shoulder and coos is a better breeding tool than the Empress Class Champion that sprays every time you walk by the cage.

 

[ticklechin]

Then how, if that is the case, can a breeder have any standards to strive for? It seems like a free for all to me. So there really is no "perfect chinchilla" that everyone is working towards? If the GSC of one Empress show was shuttled down the street to another Empress show with a different judge it could theoretically get a second because it was a long fured and that judge liked short fured chins?

 

[saphire]

Mark, I totally understand your point of each breeders personnal vue of quality and needs to improve their herd.

Guide lines have been established over many years in the chinchilla industry for quality. They have been used and are still used and proven for those who want to continue to improve the species... We all strive to get the GSC, therefore wanting the improvement of the animal.

If one chooses to consciencly go beneath those guidelines is not something that I believe should be encourraged.

I cannot believe and will not believe that any responsible breeder would be ready to encourrage a person to breed a low standard chinchilla (weak fur, denisty, clarity) because the individual believes their chinchilla has the color and personnality they like and see as quality.

Again I will say: By saying that we all have our different definition of quality gives the ticket to everyone and anyone to breed anything, with everything to get nothing in the long run.

For those who do not have ranchers or responsible breeders close to them to help, they have the opportunity of logging into this forum. Luckily the forum is available 24/24 - 7/7to everyone for any type of help. One must be willing to listen and hear what is being said and not shut off for that is when people get pissed off.

I wish I had had the opportunity at the time to have this forum, I would have saved myself thousands of dollars and heart aches... for I did not like letting go of the chinchillas I had originally bought for breeding. Luckily I found one to guide me before I had.

 

[threewingedfury]

Then how, if that is the case, can a breeder have any standards to strive for? It seems like a free for all to me. So there really is no "perfect chinchilla" that everyone is working towards? If the GSC of one Empress show was shuttled down the street to another Empress show with a different judge it could theoretically get a second because it was a long fured and that judge liked short fured chins?

I believe that every breeder has a different view of the perfect chinchilla - whether it be the best black velvet for a high dollar pelt, improving a newer mutation that would rarely do well on the table to make a 1st place, or breeding a sapphire so well that its worthy enough to take GSC at a sanctioned show.

Theoretically, yes a GSC at one show could take a 2nd at the next based on the judge - but also based on the different animals at a show and the show shape of the animal on that day. That's why I mentioned different judges on the same day, same animals. You'll still find that some animals will receive different places based on the judge's criteria. The majority of judges will judge on the same line, but there are others that just like certain qualities over others and if you don't have the quality, you're not gonna do as well as you may think. I'm not talking knocked down to 5th place, but a place or two is not uncommon. That's why is nice to show at different shows and get different opinions.

 

[mark miller]

My standard for gauging quality is probably close to the same as yours Mish with small subtle differences. We both breed to produce top show quality chinchillas. There are others that breed various colors and only sell their offspring as pets. Their criteria for quality would be nice healthy pretty colored animals. Are we right in our assessment of quality and them wrong? In my opinion, no each breeder has a right to breed for what they determine to be quality relative to their goals for their animals. As long as they are responsible breeders and understand when abnormalities show up not to continue to breed them into their breeding program. Who am I to say my reasons for breeding are more right then theirs. Granted they would be working with a larger gene pool of many mutation genes which would lead to a higher chance of abnormalities in their offspring, but if they are educated in what to watch for and are responsible to not continue breeding those animals if it shows up then that is their right and just because I don't personally agree or recommend that type of breeding if that's their sole focus and they're being responsible about it then why should I tell them they're wrong. Their opinion of a quality chinchilla is just different then mine.

 

[ticklechin]

My standard for gauging quality is probably close to the same as yours Mish with small subtle differences. We both breed to produce top show quality chinchillas. There are others that breed various colors and only sell their offspring as pets. Their criteria for quality would be nice healthy pretty colored animals. Are we right in our assessment of quality and them wrong? In my opinion, no each breeder has a right to breed for what they determine to be quality relative to their goals for their animals. As long as they are responsible breeders and understand when abnormalities show up not to continue to breed them into their breeding program. Who am I to say my reasons for breeding are more right then theirs. Granted they would be working with a larger gene pool of many mutation genes which would lead to a higher chance of abnormalities in their offspring, but if they are educated in what to watch for and are responsible to not continue breeding those animals if it shows up then that is their right and just because I don't personally agree or recommend that type of breeding if that's their sole focus and they're being responsible about it then why should I tell them they're wrong. Their opinion of a quality chinchilla is just different then mine.

All I can say is I am speechless, that does not happen often but yeah, Wow.

 

[mark miller]

Dawn, the point is that I don't believe it is right to degrade or ridicule anyone on here that has chinchillas just because I believe my animals are better "quality" then theirs or I'm a better breeder then they are. Plain and simple that is my point.

 

[Tagna]

I don't think anyone degrades or ridicules anyone for being a newb and breeding. What people do is ask the though questions. Regardless on your views on quality it is safe to say that there are enough rescues with health issues SOLELY because of people breeding with no clue.
I am personally sick of people thinking they can create all these animals and then decide that they are done and dump the chins. I have a ton of chins waiting to be surrendered.
I have no problem with people breeding but there is a right way to do it.

 

[ticklechin]

I keep hearing all this talk about name calling, since I am the one in this thread who has been called names such as RUDE and MEAN, I want to have it pointed out who else has been called names, there has been no name calling in this thread except to me.

That said, ever think there is a reason some get beat up on and its deserved? There are really only a few "breaders" on this forum who get trashed, and its well deserved due to the care of their chinchillas, lack of vet care, lack of clean conditions, lack of FOOD for hecks sake.

 

[mishalaa]

I cannot in good conscience support, condone, and least of all encourage someone breeding animals against the standards set by an organization overseeing that animal - this goes for dogs (AKC), cats (CFA), horses, chins, anything. It flies in the face of the decades of work spent improving the animals for their intended purpose and contributes nothing toward their betterment, just to the overpopulation of a saturated pet market.

I am more than willing to help and have helped new breeders get started, but they have to be willing to at least attend a show - to breed to standards not entirely made up on the spot by them.

 

[ticklechin]

:clap1::clap1::clap1:

I cannot in good conscience support, condone, and least of all encourage someone breeding animals against the standards set by an organization overseeing that animal - this goes for dogs (AKC), cats (CFA), horses, chins, anything. It flies in the face of the decades of work spent improving the animals for their intended purpose and contributes nothing toward their betterment, just to the overpopulation of a saturated pet market.

I am more than willing to help and have helped new breeders get started, but they have to be willing to at least attend a show - to breed to standards not entirely made up on the spot by them.

 

[whijjone]

I posted picture of mine, please go look and tell me what you think. It's under chin chat!