Newbies Breeding

[mark miller]

What we all need to acknowledge is breeding "quality" offspring is relative to each individual's opinion and goals for their animals. Quality to a small new breeder of 2-10 pet chins would be healthy kits with really good personalities. Quality to a large scale pelt producing herd would be strong dense fur and dark color and long bodied animals to produce the highest $ pelts. Quality to me is trying to produce the very best show type chinchilla I can (blue color, nice veiling, white belly,good size, fur texture, confromation, etc. We all have different focuses and goals on this forum for our own chinchillas and of course everyone thinks their reasons are most important and right. I remember many times at shows I would beat Ralph Shoots for Grand Show and he would go up and look at my animal with his and tell everyone how his was better because it would bring more money as a pelt then mine that beat him. I would reply that my animal was bred and designed to be a top show animal and not a pelt. Pelts are judged a little differently then live animals. My focus was on producing top show quality chins. He just needed to find something about his that he could say was better then mine so he could believe he was "right". This is very similar to what many of you do on this forum to justify your opinions. If someone doesn't do things the way you think and believe they should be done, you cut them down and call them names when maybe their focus and goals for their type of "quality" chinchilla they produce is much different then yours. That doesn't mean either one is wrong or worth calling names and personally attacking others over.

 

[ticklechin]

Define quality then, rat faced and thin fured with a good personality if that is what the person's goal is then you are all good with that since that is their definition of quality??

 

[chechinchillas]

You just missed the whole point of Mark's post and it didn't say anything about bottom of the line rat faced thin furred chinchillas. Everyone deserves to be treated with respect and has a right to their opinion. A debate is where you can disagree with someone, but there is no need for name calling or attacking someone verbally because they don't have the same opinion as you do. You can educate new breeders without being rude or mean. It makes sense that there are different traits that you would breed for depending on if it was for pelt, show, etc.

 

[saphire]

Che, it is all in the way we choose to receive the message.
I just see Tichelchin asking us the question if we would endorse that type of breeding.

Personnally, I would try and steer them away from that Tickelchin, if they chose not to listen, I know now with my experience to remove myself for it is a waste of my energy. I keep it for the ones that want to learn or send them to someone that has more patients than I have.

Che, not everyone wants to be educated and believe they know better. You can talk to them till you are bleu in the face and it won't happen. Up until now I have 1/3 that are willing.

Mark, I understand your point and agree with it to a certain extent. As mentionned previously I would not endorse people breeding just anything though.

I don't always agree on how the message is being put across, but I do understand the frustration that many have gotten over the years of trying to educate.
So I respect them for still being around and trying to do so because I know I wouldn't.

But that is me. I don't have that kind of patience.

 

[saphire]

Mark, I understand your point and agree with it to a certain extent. As mentionned previously I would not endorse people breeding just anything though.
QUOTE]

was to late to edit so here goes:

Basically, I would not endorse someone to breed just for personnality and not worry about anything else because they want nice personallities. It would not be doing the animals a favour for I do not believe personallity is genetically transmitted. (but that is another whole debate).
I know that is not what you are saying, but that is what can and will be heard. Therefore giving new breeders the ticket to do just about anything and think it is okay because they are only breeding for personnality.

I believe if you are to breed, you should do it for the betterment of the animals as a whole and not for one or two specific traits.

But again that is only me.

 

[whijjone]

Let's just all agree to disagree because everyone has a different oppinion. Right now I have four chinchillas and have yet to breed because I feel I am not ready..by joining and reading all of these posts I feel that I am becoming more and more equipped. My chins may not be what judges call first class but I don't know bc I've never been to a show, however they're mine and I think they are beautiful! I am however planning to go before breeding. Even they're not..they will make great pets and I can breed ones that are. I understand this is a debate but some take it waaaaay too far.=)

 

[ticklechin]

You just missed the whole point of Mark's post and it didn't say anything about bottom of the line rat faced thin furred chinchillas. Everyone deserves to be treated with respect and has a right to their opinion. A debate is where you can disagree with someone, but there is no need for name calling or attacking someone verbally because they don't have the same opinion as you do. You can educate new breeders without being rude or mean. It makes sense that there are different traits that you would breed for depending on if it was for pelt, show, etc.

So would you care to point out the name calling in this thread???? Last time I looked at the section its called DEBATE, I am asking a legit question, its you who is getting your knickers in a twist, perhaps the lady protests too much?

 

[mark miller]

I have produced more top quality standards as judged by sanctioned bodied judges at shows and am more decorated with awards then anybody else on here. Do you have any idea how many times I've gone to shows and talked with "legitimate" chinchilla breeders that spent a lot of money on pedigreed animals from other top breeders and really believed when they came to the show that they produced really good quality animals to show and found out on the show table that their animals weren't very good quality. That happens at every show I go to. Do you think I get in their face after the show and tell them they're a disgrace to chinchilla breeders and have no business breeding chinchillas like people do on this forum. No, I try to show them the difference between what they have and what is desired, I try to encourage them to look for animals to buy that have the characteristics they need to improve. That is educating, calling names, putting them down, telling them they have no business breeding because they don't have the quality I do is rude, disrespectful and wrong on so many levels. Yes, their are people breeding chinchillas that shouldn't be, but that's not my place to judge those people based off the little bit of information you get from them on this forum. I have a friend that lives close to me. He decided he was going to raise chinchillas. He went around and bought animals from several different breeders in my area with very little knowledge of chinchillas and started out as a pelting herd. Eventually, he changed over to a pet producing herd. He never came to shows and I didn't see his animals for 15 years. The typical "backyard breeder" as stereotyped by many on this forum. When I got to see his animals for the first time a few months ago, I was amazed. He had some of the nicest black velvets I'd seen in a long time. On this forum, he would be ridiculed and called names and put down for breeding "lesser quality chins" but you know what, he'd beat those same people making those acquisations at a show right now with the animals he's producing. Point is: that's not his focus on breeding chinchillas and it's not are right to judge him discriminately and call him names because he breeds chins for different reasons then we do.I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt that if they are passionate about raising chinchillas even if their goals are different then mine, then they will do it for the right reasons and try to improve their "quality" of offspring as they go along however that may be defined.

 

[ticklechin]

So Mark, ever do any rescue? Its obvious you are oblivious to what the aftermath of your attitude is, the rescues, those chins that no one wants that were produced and discarded, the BYBs and wannabees who go from 0-60 in months, get tired of taking care of chinchillas and dump there animals on rescues, that is the product of people who are not serious about breeding, who are not breeding to some set standard, just your idea of their "goals". You do rescue for the 11 years I have, taken care of chins from the breeder who left the chins to die in their own feces with their dead mates, have to put down chinchillas because the breeder did not bother with anything to chew on and the incisors are imbedded into the upper jaw, the teeth have overgrown to the point you can SEE the jaw bumps, the breeder who lets the "herd go wild", you do that and then maybe your attitude will change towards thinking its just great that every Tom, Dick and Harry breeds with everyones blessing.

 

[mark miller]

Dawn, I do realize that and I know that it goes on. People do need to be made aware of those things on this forum. I completely agree and I believe they are aware of those things because of the numerous posts about it on here. I'm not trying to represent that group of breeders in any way. What I don't agree with is how many people on here presume that is the outcome of every new uneducated breeder of chinchillas. No one is given the benefit of the doubt on this forum when they start asking questions to try and learn more about their chinchillas and breeding for their specific purposes. I think the feedback for these people should be more positive, encouraging and educational. They should be made aware of the problems that come along with breeding and educated on understanding the good traits from the bad genetic traits. That is truly educating, lumping them all in the group of so called "backyard breeders" and degrading them publicly for seeking out knowledge and advice on our forum is wrong to me. Every good breeder of chins has needed positive advice and had to ask questions to learn more about their animals and breeding. Will there always be some that don't listen and do things the wrong way? Absolutely, but there will also be some that will turn into really good responsible breeders of chinchillas and they deserve that opportunity without being ridiculed and lumped in to the the same group of irresponsible breeders just because they're new and trying to ask questions or their goals for breeding are different then yours or mine.

 

[RDZCRanch]

So tell me Mark, how many new breeders on this forum have you personally tried to reach out to and educate? It's great to stand higher than everyone else when you haven't spent a large number of years attempting to educate the hard headed through the internet. I may not respond to every new breeder thread but I have contacted several members that expressed interest in breeding and have tried to help them. The fact is, a lot of the people that come onto forums and don't go to the shows are not interested in learning. They are looking only for validation for the way they want to breed. If all they want is validation, then they need to look elsewhere. People are usually given a chance, I rarely see someone shut down and called a BYB the second they ask a question. People start getting "attacked" as you see it when they lie and then continue to lie. I don't care what reasons they give for lying...your mom should have told you when you were two years old that lying is wrong.

So you're saying, even if someone's goals are to breed two pet store chinchillas with malo that we should encourage them and give advice because sometime...years down the road...they may turn around and realize what quality is and change their minds.

 

[VolunteerChin22]

Dawn, I didnt see where he blessed the dumping of animals and cruel living conditions or advocated for breeding malo chins at all. A lot of your points have to do with the irresponsibility of the owners/breeders - I don't think anyone would condone that kind of breeding irresponsibility let alone irresponsible pet ownership. I think there is a big difference in an irresponsible breeder/owner and someone who is off to the wrong start because of poor information or lack of proper education.

I do agree with Saphire that personality alone does not make someone successful at quality breeding, and should have been clarified.

 

[mishalaa]

What we all need to acknowledge is breeding "quality" offspring is relative to each individual's opinion and goals for their animals.

While I agree and am fine with breeders having different goals for their herd, I do not believe "quality" is or should be relative. If it were, the whole show system wouldn't mean flying poop balls. Too many breeders don't participate in the organizations and try to define quality on their own as it is. I think that's a huge problem.

 

[whijjone]

I agree with both of you..I see where each is coming from, but being very and I mean very new to this..I'm one of those dumbfounded question askers. I would love to get into breeding, but I'm not one of those people who are goin to throw two chins together for the fun of it and just see what I get. I also understand by being new I am prob out of my league when it comes to this debate, but I will want to go to someone who will mentor and help me versus someone who will attack me. As far as shows go, I live very far from all o them and I am a school teacher. It is hard to plan to go, but does that mean I am going to be a backyard breeder...no. I will go to a show and see and experience the right way to do things before I begin. Once again though, thank you for all your help bc by reading this I am getting educated.

 

[VolunteerChin22]

While I agree and am fine with breeders having different goals for their herd, I do not believe "quality" is or should be relative. If it were, the whole show system wouldn't mean flying poop balls.

Ha flying poop balls.

Agreed, I think goals is a better way to describe it.

 

[mark miller]

Tabitha, every one of us breeders have raised a pet quality malo chin at some point whether we realize it or it shows up later regardless of how diligent with our pedigrees or educated we are with chinchilla breeding. I'm not the advocate for the irresposible chinchilla breeders out there. I get as frustrated with some new breeders I've tried to help as the rest of you do. I haven't started very many new breeders through the internet or this forum, but I have always made myself available and responded in a respectful way to the ones that have contacted me. I've started enough people in chinchillas over the last 20 years, that I've experienced all outcomes. You can't help and guide everyone, some are beyond help, I agree with that. I've experienced it. But, I've also experienced someone really being persistant and achieving their goals in raising chinchillas that I started or assisted them in and that is very rewarding for me. Not every "newbie" is destined to fail and shouldn't all be told and treated that way.

 

[ticklechin]

If this just involved the newbie and their hobby such as knitting that would be a great attitude, everyone should try it, but we are talking about living creatures, I think they need respect and when every single newbie is encouraged to breed according to you-heck they could potentially be the next Somavia so give them a chance, who is the loser here, those little lives who are a pawn in the inflated sense of self importance of newbie breeder, encouraged to try because they should be given the right to.

 

[Mikayla]

I agree with a lot of what Mark said (I skimmed over some of it, I'm on lunch), but the best thing that he said is that people should be given the benefit of the doubt, and should be taught in nuturing, supportive way

 

[ticklechin]

How about when the student does not listen and chinchillas die for some lame excuse? Does that still call for a kumbaya moment? Does that make the "teachers" have that warm and fuzzy feeling they encouraged the "student"?

 

[Spoof]

I'm with Mark here, quite frankly there are so few breeders left these days I'd rather take the chance in encouraging everyone in hopes that they learn and become more prominent in the industry. Your ideal "crappy breeder" isn't going to just go away, the only thing we can do is outnumber them as good breeders.

I would be just as happy to help you pick out animals for personality as I would for a pelt. I like to help people who want to learn, not drive them away.

I am also quite curious to see just how bad the quality goes down once the last of the big guys gets out of wholesaling. Then instead of having an 80/20 split of pelters dumping into the pet market, we're going to have 20/80 in favor of Rainbeau Exotics type places. Of course, with chins dying faster people will buy more of them... right?