Newbies Breeding

[chechinchillas]

I don't think most people mean to breed the wrong way. They buy or are given a chinchilla and fall in love with the animal. They may not even know that they come in different colors other than gray. All they know is they want to learn everything they can about them, which is no easy task when you are first starting out. They don't know about rescues, chinchilla shows (most people laugh when I tell them there are chinchilla shows), clubs, etc. They are excited and they are going to make mistakes, but the majority of that is not being educated yet and it's not because they don't want to be they just have no idea. I just don't want to see them discouraged, I want them to learn and become good breeders. I don't want the shows to die off now that the long time breeders are retiring. I do not do alot of rescues so I don't see that side of it and if I dealt with that everyday I can see getting upset with people, but I have really not come across that with anyone in person. There are a couple of posts I have seen from newbie breeders that made my jaw drop open, but I think most people just need to be educated and really aren't aware that there is this whole world of show standards for chins just like dogs and cats. The newbies I have been around love their animals and once they hear that there are shows, forums and clubs, they are like a sponge wanting to soak it all up.

 

[Whimsy]

The majority of the groups of rescues that come to us are "oops" families. People either buy chinchillas from a pet store, "breeder", or some other random place and are told they have a certain gender that is completely wrong. Some people think they can keep their brother and sister chin together and not have litters because....well....brothers and sisters can't breed...can they?

Needless to say, there is an overabundance of chinchillas that need homes. With their long lifespan, is it really fair to the animals for newbies to dabble in breeding? What ever happened to mentorship?

 

[mark miller]

Somewhere along the way we have all forgotten why any of us currently have chinchillas. Some of you don't want to think about it or acknowledge it but chinchillas weren't brought here to be show animals or pets or rescues. They were intended to be bred and sold for their fur. We created these other uses for them. Back in the 1960's when my father started breeding chins there were over 100,000 breeders of chinchillas, almost every state had a group that had many members. There were way more chinchillas being bred and produced then there are now. There were no chins in pet stores, there were no rescues, and why did 90% of those breeders breed? For the money they thought they were going to make. When they realized the market fluctuates on fur price and they weren't going to get rich many quit breeding. The others that continued looked for new ways to market their chins. Empress continued to evolve and the model for optimum quality continued to change. Breeders had to specialize to make ends meet. Either you breed for top show quality by empress standards and sell live breeding stock to other members or you breed for the fur market and what would bring the most money as a pelt. Then the pet market begin to develop and again breeders had a choice on what they wanted to breed for which now included pet sales. Why rescues were started, I have no idea. Everyone that does it complains about the animals health, not being able to get rid of them, spreading sickness, having genetic problems ie malo, why wasn't there these problems 50 years ago when there was way more breeders around and way more chinchillas being produced and no pet market at all? They pelted the animals that were lower quality, showed genetic abnormalities, were not able to be sold, or that they didn't have room for. We all created the problem that we have now with unwanted, unhealthy, genetic defects, overpopulated rescues. You wouldn't have to complain about these things if we still knew how to use a pelt board. It is truly the only way to continue to improve the overall quality and health of all chinchillas out there. Its funny that's what we all seem to be striving for and yet most of us wouldn't consider it. We've gotten a long ways from the original sole purpose for raising chinchillas and you wonder why we have all the problems to deal with now. We've all created them with our different focuses and goals for our chinchillas.

 

[ticklechin]

So if we pelt all the rescues problem solved? How about just kill them and give them to the zoo for food, seems like less of a waste of chinchilla life. BREEDERS put two chinchillas together and make babies, its breeders who have overpopulated the market with sub par chinchillas, who the heck else is to blame, the chinchilla??????

 

[lauralynne]

Everyone, this is a pelt neutral forum, so let's get off the pelting topic and back to "newbies breeding" topic if you would like to continue. Thanks!

 

[Nana]

All my chins are boys cz I don't want to deal with difficult chinchilla deliveries. Just thinking about possible complications scare me.

 

[Tagna]

Regardless of the past, the fact is that the pet chinchilla industry is a huge thing right now. That's why we need rescues to take them in, as with all other pets. When newbies begin breeding a lot of them think it's all about making these "rare" colours and breed and breed and breed. Then the market is slow and they start having "sales" trying to get rid of the chins.

Newbies shouldn't be breeding. They need to own chins first and learn. Breeding shouldn't be something you learn as you go, although I'm sure breeders learn new things all the time.

 

[Chinantics]

Newbie here. Extreme newbie.
Dont jump down my throat, we are all entitled to our own opinions.
First topic for me.
RESEARCH
I did research, lots and lots, months and months, read and reread. Still am far from knowing and understanding a fraction of it. Thank goodness for the era we live in that what you want to learn is a google site away. If not for modern times we wouldn't be able to have these debates. That being said, in all of my beginning research, not one site that came up was for a rescue or this site. There is a wealth of info here, just remember us newbies might not have found it yet. Perhaps it should be a link to it from club sites.

Second topic
MASS PRODUCTION
Rescues are a necessary evil for any animal species that is made into a domesticated pet. Thank goodness for them. I could be very wrong about this but hear me out. I find it hard to believe that every dick and jane that breeds their family pets and produces six chins a year is what has caused an over population of chins flooding the market. Everyone hates to hear it, but it's the breeders. Just because you put two champions together does not guarntee a champion prodigy. So every litter you have is going to probably contribute to the pets available and flood the market in large quantities. You will also probably sell your older "retired" breeders so you have cage space. When you look at the number behind the letter of the year are you ever concerned when you are getting high in the triple digits. Do you sign contracts with your customers that they are not allowed to breed. Do you allow them to return the chin to you for any reason for the life of the chin, even though its not offering them money back. Do you offer them discounts for same sex cage mates in the beginning so they don't go looking later because baby#1 is lonely. Do you have potential buyers before you match a pair up or do you end up with an over abundance of standards so you have a sale. Do you keep in contact with your customers more than a year after purchase. When one of us newbies come to you with questions do you help and point us to good information or do you not even respond.

Third topic
HEALTH
Yes us newbies will probably contribute more to health problems than a seasoned breeder because we don't know the pedigrees and history.
Although I do think having animals shown and winning at such young ages is bad. They win, they breed then a couple years later genetic problems arise.
They should darn well should be able to compete still at 3.

Topic four
SOLUTIONS
You can't complain about the problem if your not willing to be a part of the solution.
Increase club dues to fund "legitimate" rescue organizations.
Create a spay/neuter clinic that travels from club to club through the year at different vets.
Set aside a portion of your sales to fund rescue.

 

[Lulilac]

I've been wondering about what makes show winning chinchilla recently, so this thread has been very interesting. I thought maybe there was an exact body confirmation thing, like there are for dog breeds, but it doesn't sound like it. What IS the difference between a show quality and pet quality chinchilla? Is a pet quality chinchilla just one that doesn't meet the standards of a particular breeder? Would one breeder's pet quality be another's breeding quality?

Also, what does a rat faced chinchilla look like? Sometimes I think my Hugo is just a malformed mutant giant rat with his little ears, beadie eyes and bad attitude, : D

I can understand why a new chinner would be SO in love with their little monster that they would think that little mini versions could only be a good thing. I love my Barnaby and think he is awesome (and I'm growing to love my "rat" as well). However, I would never breed him because, well, it would just be too traumatic for everyone. And, if he bonded with a female how sad would it be that they couldn't even play together for fear of an unplanned pregnancy. Have no idea of his genetic history because he originally belonged to a friend's friend's mother. But, yeah, I can see someone concluding that they have the most wonderful pet in the world so cleary the world needs more of him. : P

Lu

 

[RDZCRanch]

I've been wondering about what makes show winning chinchilla recently, so this thread has been very interesting. I thought maybe there was an exact body confirmation thing, like there are for dog breeds, but it doesn't sound like it. What IS the difference between a show quality and pet quality chinchilla? Is a pet quality chinchilla just one that doesn't meet the standards of a particular breeder? Would one breeder's pet quality be another's breeding quality?

A show quality chinchilla needs to have all the qualities prevalent in the industry today or at least have them all in a good amount. The qualities have to do with the fur and the size of the animal. The fur should be dense (thick), have a blue hue, stand straight, bounce back quickly when manipulated, and have the correct clarity throughout the coat. These are all qualities that are hard to discern in a picture or across the internet and qualities that you must see in person to truly understand them. My pet quality would not be breeding quality for any other reputable breeder that I know and if I sell them as pet quality, that is what they are.

Also, what does a rat faced chinchilla look like? Sometimes I think my Hugo is just a malformed mutant giant rat with his little ears, beadie eyes and bad attitude, : D

This has been discussed before and people have shown pictures. It was in chin chat I believe but you can use the search function to find the particular thread. Typically a rat faced chinchilla has a long, thin, wedgy shaped face and long ears with weak fur that lays down.

I can understand why a new chinner would be SO in love with their little monster that they would think that little mini versions could only be a good thing. I love my Barnaby and think he is awesome (and I'm growing to love my "rat" as well). However, I would never breed him because, well, it would just be too traumatic for everyone. And, if he bonded with a female how sad would it be that they couldn't even play together for fear of an unplanned pregnancy. Have no idea of his genetic history because he originally belonged to a friend's friend's mother. But, yeah, I can see someone concluding that they have the most wonderful pet in the world so cleary the world needs more of him. : P

I don't understand this. Would any of these people pick a dog up off the streets or from the pet store and think they are ok to breed? Of course not. So why is it ok to breed the chinchillas from the pet stores and rescues? Would you buy a dog or cat from a backyard breeder and breed it? Why is it ok to breed chinchillas based on personality, but not dogs. Essentially, when you pair two chinchillas of unknown history together, you are making mutts. Why is it ok to make "mutt" chinchillas but not ok to make "mutt" dogs? It makes no sense to me that people's logic does not transfer between species but instead they make a new set of rules for how the breeding of each should be handled.

Mark, you make a very good and valid point which is why many of us on the west coast are trying our hands at pelting to truly understand the "why" of our breeding. A lot of breeders are afraid of pelting though because it gives you a "bad" reputation with the pet owners of chinchillas. It's seen as cruel and heartless to humanely euthanize an animal and then utilize the carcass.

 

[Riven]

There is no rule saying that you can not show an animal who is 3 or older. But the first full prime is the best prime. That's like putting a 40 year old ( a normal looking one, not one of these plastic surgery model people ) in the Miss America competition, the younger girls are going to just look better in most cases. You want your pelt to be the best looking pelt it can be for that animal. Plus it's not uncommon that animals who are bred later in life for the first time have other issues with birthing, the body is not as young, egg production is decreased, sperm production is decreased...

As an animal ages they lose their color, and they never prime as well as that first prime. Shows are based on pelting, the best fur is the first prime, people don't grow out chins for 3 years before pelting them.

I disagree that breeder should set aside funds to support rescues as well. I do rescue when needed, but I don't think responsible breeders should have to fund rescues for people who want to breed sub-quality chins or "just have babies". For a basic standard male I usually charge $75. For my higher quality animals I charge more. But by the time I buy feed, shavings, pay for a/c, electricity, etc. I'm not way out making tons of money, usually I break even if I'm lucky. It's not mandatory for people who have children to have to set aside money for orphanages... that's basically the same concept.

At what point does rescuing become too much? I understand it's hard to put a price on a life, but I see rescues who spend outrageous amounts on money on one or two chins to have a mediocre quality of life. Ranchers never keep an animal alive for just one more litter... And yes I do pelt, the majority of what I pelt is animals that die of illness, birthing issues, teeth problems etc. I don't, okay I should say I VERY rarely adopt out an animal I know has teeth issues, because I don't know if that animal is going to be taken care of properly, no matter what people say, or what contract they sign, you can't guarantee that animal isn't suffering no matter how good someone's intentions are. My attitude on this applies to myself as well, because I don't want to be stuck being kept alive with a crappy quality of life.

I've also noticed that the term breeders is being used universally, so I'm going to assume that this is including responsible breeders. If all responsible breeders quit breeding all that would be left would be the back yard breeders who don't care, and where is that going to get the domesticated chinchilla as a species? We need new breeders that want to breed responsibly, unfortunately not everyone has a mentor in their back yard... some don't even have one in their same state, but people DO come here and elsewhere looking for help only to be slaughtered by people who don't breed at all, or people who think they are the only ones who can breed because obviously they're the only ones who care about chins...

 

[Claire D]

Somewhere along the way we have all forgotten why any of us currently have chinchillas. Some of you don't want to think about it or acknowledge it but chinchillas weren't brought here to be show animals or pets or rescues. They were intended to be bred and sold for their fur. We created these other uses for them.
................. You wouldn't have to complain about these things if we still knew how to use a pelt board. It is truly the only way to continue to improve the overall quality and health of all chinchillas out there. Its funny that's what we all seem to be striving for and yet most of us wouldn't consider it.

Your enboldened sentences are cobblers. Times change & history is just that - it is the past, not the present - fur farming is illegal is in the UK & for that I am proud to be British. We only have a pet market here & yet responsible breeders still strive to improve the quality of chinchillas.
Health is not improved by pelting - culling/pelting simply hides the problems because the chins are killed before they reach an age at which problems manifest.
Health is improved by breeding chinchillas which live a full lifespan without significant illness or defect - THAT is what responsible breeders here aim for.

Mark, you make a very good and valid point which is why many of us on the west coast are trying our hands at pelting to truly understand the "why" of our breeding.

I totally disagree with this - there is no need to pelt to understand the why of breeding. Such justification for pelting is moot at best.


Chinchillas are not just pelts on legs, regardless of their history - they are intelligent, characterful, & long-lived animals which make good pets. I breed a few chins (standards & pure recessive charcoals), show in the NCS, & also work with the biggest dedicated chinchilla rescue in the UK - I see all those aspects as being of equal value.

 

[ticklechin]

Your enboldened sentences are cobblers. Times change & history is just that - it is the past, not the present - fur farming is illegal is in the UK & for that I am proud to be British. We only have a pet market here & yet responsible breeders still strive to improve the quality of chinchillas.
Health is not improved by pelting - culling/pelting simply hides the problems because the chins are killed before they reach an age at which problems manifest.
Health is improved by breeding chinchillas which live a full lifespan without significant illness or defect - THAT is what responsible breeders here aim for.



I totally disagree with this - there is no need to pelt to understand the why of breeding. Such justification for pelting is moot at best.


Chinchillas are not just pelts on legs, regardless of their history - they are intelligent, characterful, & long-lived animals which make good pets. I breed a few chins (standards & pure recessive charcoals), show in the NCS, & also work with the biggest dedicated chinchilla rescue in the UK - I see all those aspects as being of equal value.

:clap1::clap1:

 

[Chinantics]

Thank you Riven for giving me another side to look at.

 

[Chinantics]

Again, not trying to argue; but there a lot of people breeding dogs and producing mutts.
It's what fills are shelters.
Look at the entire designer dog phase.

Its not good for any species.

 

[menagerie]

Somewhere along the way we have all forgotten why any of us currently have chinchillas. Some of you don't want to think about it or acknowledge it but chinchillas weren't brought here to be show animals or pets or rescues. They were intended to be bred and sold for their fur. We created these other uses for them.

Times change and things evolve, usually for the better. People were pulled from Africa and brought to this country as slaves. Women were not allowed to vote. Thought processes and justifications change, it's called evolution.

Back in the 1960's when my father started breeding chins there were over 100,000 breeders of chinchillas, almost every state had a group that had many members. There were way more chinchillas being bred and produced then there are now. There were no chins in pet stores, there were no rescues, and why did 90% of those breeders breed? For the money they thought they were going to make. When they realized the market fluctuates on fur price and they weren't going to get rich many quit breeding.

Most of those 100,000 breeders were BYB that were just in it for the quick buck. In the beginning there was lots of money to be made breeding chins for the fur industry, but that is not the case today and hasn't been for a several decades. The demand for fur has also drastically changed. As people became more aware of what went into making those pretty coats, they were less willing to wear them.

The others that continued looked for new ways to market their chins. Empress continued to evolve and the model for optimum quality continued to change. Breeders had to specialize to make ends meet. Either you breed for top show quality by empress standards and sell live breeding stock to other members or you breed for the fur market and what would bring the most money as a pelt. Then the pet market begin to develop and again breeders had a choice on what they wanted to breed for which now included pet sales.

Once the fur market dried up and there was no profit to be had, the breeders had to adapt to new markets or go the way of the dodo bird.

Why rescues were started, I have no idea. Everyone that does it complains about the animals health, not being able to get rid of them, spreading sickness, having genetic problems ie malo, why wasn't there these problems 50 years ago when there was way more breeders around and way more chinchillas being produced and no pet market at all? They pelted the animals that were lower quality, showed genetic abnormalities, were not able to be sold, or that they didn't have room for. We all created the problem that we have now with unwanted, unhealthy, genetic defects, overpopulated rescues.

Why rescue any animal? Why are dog and cat rescues in existence? Because there is a need to help the animals. I agree with Claire on the health issues. The animals were not allowed to live to their full potential, therefore health issues were hidden. Pelting does not fix any of the issues of the chinchilla as a species, it just gets rid of the evidence. The only way to fix the issues is through better breeding. I don't see that breaking out the pelting board helps in anyway to determine the quality of an animal. All other species are judged on the hoof not on the board.

 

[saphire]

I don't understand this. Would any of these people pick a dog up off the streets or from the pet store and think they are ok to breed? Of course not. So why is it ok to breed the chinchillas from the pet stores and rescues? Would you buy a dog or cat from a backyard breeder and breed it? Why is it ok to breed chinchillas based on personality, but not dogs. Essentially, when you pair two chinchillas of unknown history together, you are making mutts. Why is it ok to make "mutt" chinchillas but not ok to make "mutt" dogs? It makes no sense to me that people's logic does not transfer between species but instead they make a new set of rules for how the breeding of each should be handled.
.

Exactly!!!!

Chinantics:

Just voicing my opinion, so I am not down your throat.

I breed, I have contracts for return, I follow up on my customers even go to their homes where possible to reassure my client that their chin is well to the best of my knowledge. I sit chinchillas for my customers that bring their animals to me.
I also rescue alone with my own money. I pick up animals (without peds that came from pets stores, BYB's etc) that people do not WANT anymore for different reasons, some ligit others not as far as I am concerned. I have and still have chinchillas that have been left to themselves because of health issues... I am the one, out of my pockets dishing out the funds for these little guys because the pet owners didn't want to pay for them or have the funds. (SURPRISE, I don't either) For we all know that Breeding is not a Money Fountain) We are talking hundreds of dollars per animal. These are animals that are not from my herd, but without peds, from pet stores and Mr and Mrs lets make special colors for money. I definitely know that their are more breeders like me that rescue and dish out of their pockets.

Now my goal in breeding is working on the health and quality of the animals. One reason, my first two came from pet stores have and have died at a young age of 2.5years.

I am working my BUTT off to improve them, as many of my peers. And you know what pisses me off, is I am being finger pointed by Pet People, because my goal as a breeder is working on improving health and quality to offer PET PEOPLE these features. While the "PET OWNER" comes and wants THE animal, dosen't want to pay the price, runs around trying to find the special color for 25$.
I ask, where do you find these??? I have a BYB that is about 13hours West of me selling SPECIAL colors, anything with everything and people buy.
Are the responsible breeders the soul providers of chins in rescues OR is it possible that people will not take the reflection upon themselves and see that they are part of the problem also... For if all would be patient enough and take the time to look for the breeder that is responsible towards the animal and shy away from pet stores and byb's, there would be a heck of alot less animals in rescues.

Should it be the Breeders responsibility to be the soul providers for Rescue Funds or/and the thousands of Pet Owners.
I am willing to sell all of my chinchillas with an addes RESCUE FEE. Are pet owners willing to pay for it???

I notice that alot of rescues try to raise funds by offering different items to support themselves, I just wonder how well they do in raising funds from the sell of their items.

So if one thinks that I would encourrage and condon any type of breeding that will undo what I am working my Butt off to improve would be totally hypocritical.
I will work with ANYONE who is willing to work with me, but Mr & Mrs Special Color for a Buck that dosen't want to hear anything I am not interested in putting my energy there.

This all being said, I am a Pet Owner and Breeder.

 

[mark miller]

The animals that are being sold as pets today, that the newbie and backyard breeders (as they are called) normally get their start with because their the cheapest, easiest chins out there to afford and find and buy, the ones in the rescues that are sick or showing signs of genetic defects, the rat faced, thin furred, lowest quality chinchilla possible were not around in the past spread out to anyone in the public because of pelting. The pet market and fluctuating fur market has caused this. Chinchilla breeders use to have to pelt all of the crap chinchillas, now they just unload them on the pet market. It has definitely affected the health and the quality of all the chinchillas alive today. For an animal to not be on a pelt board in the past, it had to be healthy and of good usuable quality to the breeder or other breeders. For an animal to be sold as a pet, it just has to be alive at 2-3 months of age. These things that you all complain about dealing with now are a direct result of the pet market for chinchillas. In order to have chinchillas directly available to all the public as pets, you're going to have to deal with the problems that has directly caused.

 

[Claire D]

The animals that are being sold as pets today, that the newbie and backyard breeders (as they are called) normally get their start with because their the cheapest, easiest chins out there to afford and find and buy, the ones in the rescues that are sick or showing signs of genetic defects, the rat faced, thin furred, lowest quality chinchilla possible were not around in the past spread out to anyone in the public because of pelting. The pet market and fluctuating fur market has caused this. Chinchilla breeders use to have to pelt all of the crap chinchillas, now they just unload them on the pet market. It has definitely affected the health and the quality of all the chinchillas alive today. For an animal to not be on a pelt board in the past, it had to be healthy and of good usuable quality to the breeder or other breeders. For an animal to be sold as a pet, it just has to be alive at 2-3 months of age. These things that you all complain about dealing with now are a direct result of the pet market for chinchillas. In order to have chinchillas directly available to all the public as pets, you're going to have to deal with the problems that has directly caused.

Utter crap! So you justify totally negating the UK chinchilla population because you believe that ONLY pelt breeders have any worth or quality? Frankly your dismissive position is laughable.
There is NO reason why the pet market cannot be made up of excellent quality chinchillas - it simply takes responsible breeders passing on good quality chins to other breeders & mentoring them (which is what the OP was about on this thread ..........).

 

[mark miller]

Claire, I realize you don't want to aknowledge it, but it is reality. I've lived through it and seen it from both times. The reality here in the states is the crap chinchillas that used to be a breeders pelts are no unloaded by breeders as pet quality. That's what the pet market created here, another way to unload crappy chinchillas without having to wait 7-10 months to pelt. That is the reality, and with that brings all the weak gene pool animals spread out throughout the public.