Newbies Breeding

[Claire D]

Claire, I realize you don't want to aknowledge it, but it is reality. I've lived through it and seen it from both times. The reality here in the states is the crap chinchillas that used to be a breeders pelts are no unloaded by breeders as pet quality. That's what the pet market created here, another way to unload crappy chinchillas without having to wait 7-10 months to pelt. That is the reality, and with that brings all the weak gene pool animals spread out throughout the public.

No, Mark. It is your perceived reality. If very breeder has the same attitude as you then it is no wonder the pet chins are as you say - there is absolutely no reason for pet chins to be crappy.
Here in the UK it is not the same. Just because we do not have pelting does not mean that our chinchillas are of any less quality than yours. We only have a pet market - yes we have some lesser quality chins but we also have ribbons winners & GSCs who are judged using the same criteria you do.
My point, which you refuse to acknowledge, is that you don't have to be pelting to breed for or assess quality. You simply have to have good criteria for judging the animals.

 

[mark miller]

There is no quality criteria for selling a pet here. If its alive at 2-3 months of age it's pet quality. That is the way every person that sells pets here looks at it. There will always be sanctioned breeders here producing the top show quality pedigreed animals, but you won't see those in a pet store or at the same prices as pets. Pet chinchillas here were the formally pelted chinchillas here and were never available to the public to have and breed.

 

[ticklechin]

So the large ranches that sell to wholesalers you are accusing of selling chinchilla junk, is that your point?

 

[cindyv3737]

There is no quality criteria for selling a pet here. If its alive at 2-3 months of age it's pet quality. That is the way every person that sells pets here looks at it. There will always be sanctioned breeders here producing the top show quality pedigreed animals, but you won't see those in a pet store or at the same prices as pets. Pet chinchillas here were the formally pelted chinchillas here and were never available to the public to have and breed.

Are you suggesting that pet chinchillas should be pelted? I personally am offended by that. Just because my "pet" has inferior fur quality does not mean she should be pelted.

 

[mark miller]

Maybe you'll understand my point better by this example. When every breeder pelted, there was a quality criteria involved. If a breeder bred fur flaws, crappy quality, they were docked by the buyer and lost money on their pelts. This made the breeders try to achieve a higher standard of quality throughout their animals to achieve a higher selling price and better profit. There is no quality check in selling pets. A first place show quality chin is worth the same as a rat face, thin furred chin when sold as wholesale pets. There is no quality standard to achieve or strive for in pet sales.

 

[cindyv3737]

This would be the difference between those that care about animals and those that don't.

 

[saphire]

I know I am not the only one frustrated in seeing new posts on here about newbies buying animals and breeding. I don't know how most of you do it-answering the same questions over and over again.

I do feel that everyone deserves a chance if they are true in wanting to better the species, attend shows and be something. But lately-I just want to say "If you feel like you need to buy a pair and breed before you do any type of homework-then you are on your own!"

How do you guys do it? Respond to all of the same posts over and over again?

Honestly Jess I am with you, I don't know how they do it myself!

 

[Claire D]

Wow, Mark. Your perception of pets is totally different to those people who have pet chinchillas. A fur fault is no reason to pelt a chin - if the chin is healthy then why not sell it as a pet for someone to love? It is not lesser quality to the pet owner who may get 15-20 years of pleasure from an animal which interacts, is intelligent, & is a character.

Pelting criteria are limited - they do not take into account health, temperament & longevity - sticking to simple pelting criteria is archaic & denies a large part of what a chinchilla is. Your criteria revolves around money. A "perfect" pelt does not mean a chinchilla is healthy - so that is not a quality animal, is it?

 

[ticklechin]

Maybe you'll understand my point better by this example. When every breeder pelted, there was a quality criteria involved. If a breeder bred fur flaws, crappy quality, they were docked by the buyer and lost money on their pelts. This made the breeders try to achieve a higher standard of quality throughout their animals to achieve a higher selling price and better profit. There is no quality check in selling pets. A first place show quality chin is worth the same as a rat face, thin furred chin when sold as wholesale pets. There is no quality standard to achieve or strive for in pet sales.

Why the freak not? Why can't you sell show quality pets to pet owners?? We pay more for p$ss poor quality chins than you make on the pelts at pet stores, Do you actually think that us STUPID pet owners, which you are basically saying we are, want rat faced fur chewers??? I have paid good money for show winning chinchillas and I am just a lowley pet owner, because I wanted gorgeous chinchillas.

 

[chechinchillas]

I do not sell to pet shops, but I know that breeders who can't sell their babies are going to sell their very lowest quality to pet shops, not their quality chinchillas. If a newbie breeder truly wants to learn, I think their best bet is to private message one of the responsible breeders on this forum. That way they can ask and learn and not risk public ridicule.

 

[mark miller]

I was involved with Empress in the early 1980's when the pet sales started to take off. Empress directors were strongly against member breeders selling pets and threatened taking away memberships and banning anyone caught selling pets from the organization. They knew it was going to affect the pelt market and the overall quality of chinchillas being released to the public. I scoffed at this as did many other members thinking they were just trying to protect the pelting industry. As more and more members began selling pets and the pelt market plummeting, Empress had no choice but to relent on their stance and not punish members for selling pets. Turns out now, years later they were right about it affecting overall quality of chinchillas out there for all the reasons I previously stated about there being no quality standard for selling as pets. I see it at shows now more then I did in the past. Everyone's animals used to be closer in quality at the shows. Now, I feel sorry for many of the young ranchers just getting started cuz they were sold some of the crap that's out there now that didn't use to get sold when breeders pelted their lower quality. It has affected overall quality in chinchillas, maybe not at the top with breeders striving for better top show quality, but definitely at the bottem, where the crap that's unloaded as pets gets bred and continued on.

 

[Whimsy]

There is no quality criteria for selling a pet here. If its alive at 2-3 months of age it's pet quality. That is the way every person that sells pets here looks at it. There will always be sanctioned breeders here producing the top show quality pedigreed animals, but you won't see those in a pet store or at the same prices as pets. Pet chinchillas here were the formally pelted chinchillas here and were never available to the public to have and breed.

Well those are interesting statements, especially considering the mulitple stoiries I've heard about discovered "pet store chins" and "rescue chins" winning Grand Show Champion at sanctioned shows.
Hmmm.....

 

[Chinantics]

I don't think mark is saying get rid of all the pets or even show vs pet.

IMO its more pets now because they aren't pelted

 

[ticklechin]

I was involved with Empress in the early 1980's when the pet sales started to take off. Empress directors were strongly against member breeders selling pets and threatened taking away memberships and banning anyone caught selling pets from the organization. They knew it was going to affect the pelt market and the overall quality of chinchillas being released to the public. I scoffed at this as did many other members thinking they were just trying to protect the pelting industry. As more and more members began selling pets and the pelt market plummeting, Empress had no choice but to relent on their stance and not punish members for selling pets. Turns out now, years later they were right about it affecting overall quality of chinchillas out there for all the reasons I previously stated about there being no quality standard for selling as pets. I see it at shows now more then I did in the past. Everyone's animals used to be closer in quality at the shows. Now, I feel sorry for many of the young ranchers just getting started cuz they were sold some of the crap that's out there now that didn't use to get sold when breeders pelted their lower quality. It has affected overall quality in chinchillas, maybe not at the top with breeders striving for better top show quality, but definitely at the bottem, where the crap that's unloaded as pets gets bred and continued on.

Glad to hear you think poorly of pet owners AND those here that are not the "big guns" who show and try to do their best with their crap chins.

 

[mark miller]

I'm not even an advocate for pelting. I have never pelted a chinchilla in my life. I did assist my father and grandfather when they pelted, but haven't for years. All I'm doing is giving all of you an explanation of why we have the problems we have now with such low quality and inherited health and fur chewing animals so abundant throughout the public. It is the direct result of chinchillas being sold as pets and the problems pet sales of chinchillas have brought like the need for rescues. I'm giving you all the background and information to understand the problem and why we're having to debate about newbie and backyard breeders. It's the quality of chinchillas that have been dispersed through the sales of pets to the general public.

 

[Spoof]

but I know that breeders who can't sell their babies are going to sell their very lowest quality to pet shops, not their quality chinchillas.

Many wholesalers only take babies - if the pelt market is down it is not unheard of for a breeder to send off everything just weaned and small enough to look just weaned. You can't tell what the quality is that young. They get $25-35 an animal and don't have to maintain it for a year. Easy quick money.

 

[ChinnyMom]

one thing i've noticed about your comments Mark, is that you speak strongly about the fur quality being less in 'pet quality' chins. if the pelts are worth the most at the time of first prime in the fur industry, then those chins are not alive long enough for us to know if malo or other health issues are running rampant in the stock of a fur rancher, right? so the shift from pelt to pet, in my mind, really has no correlation in the health issues we see so often today in chins.

i know i haven't been in the chin world very long, but i would choose health over beauty any day!

 

[mark miller]

Health issues like malo and other genetic issues were much easier to control and identify in pelting herds. Most fur ranchers kept very good records and because only the strongest quality were kept to breed whenever an issue showed up like malo ranchers were able to identify the lines it most likely came from and remove them from the herd. Now with those animals being sold as pets with no pedigrees that some times turn into breeding animals by newbie and uneducated breeders, those genetic defects are much more prevelant with no way of possibly tracking it down through the pedigree and lineage. This has just increased the number of pet chins with health problems because of these new uneducated breeders using animals with unknown gene pools and backgrounds.

 

[RDZCRanch]

one thing i've noticed about your comments Mark, is that you speak strongly about the fur quality being less in 'pet quality' chins. if the pelts are worth the most at the time of first prime in the fur industry, then those chins are not alive long enough for us to know if malo or other health issues are running rampant in the stock of a fur rancher, right? so the shift from pelt to pet, in my mind, really has no correlation in the health issues we see so often today in chins.

Ranchers do not always pelt at first prime. I know some ranchers that have pelted animals they take out of breeding around 3 to even 14 years of age (usually pulled for teeth problems) and they have taken high awards at the shows and bring home to same amount of cash. It's all about pelting when the animal is in prime and the tanning process of the pelt to get it as blue as possible.

Since I breed to pelt standards, I want to know WHY different qualities are so important and how the qualities transfer from a live animal to a pelt. This is my way of understanding the qualities deeper. If that makes me a "bad" breeder, then so be it...I don't sell many chinchillas to pet owners as it is. You can say this is just a "lame" justification of pelting, but if this is true, can't it also be said that "quality" is a lame justification for breeding? Just as we say that making cute babies is a lame justification for breeding. I don't have to justify anything that I do with my herd since it is my herd and I do follow ethical practices.

 

[mark miller]

I don't have to justify anything that I do with my herd since it is my herd and I do follow ethical practices.

All chinchilla owners feel this way. It is your right to do what you want with your chins whether it be a showing/pelting herd, a breeder for pets, or simply just a pet chinchilla owner. No one on her should be, or feel, discriminated against for doing what they want with their chins as long as their responsible, ethical, and always open to learn more about their animals and practices. This is especially true when it comes to newbie breeders. They are uneducated on chinchilla breeding and come to this forum seeking advice and good information. They often already have their focus and goals in mind for breeding, just dont know how to achieve them. It's not our place to tell them they can't breed 2 pet store chins together. It is our opportunity to educate them on all the health problems and other issues they could end up having when doing so. That is what this forum should be all about. People are going to do what they want with their animals. Educating them without degrading them is truly the best thing we all can do through this public forum to help control the growing problems with pet chinchillas.