diet question

[tunes]

Carol-Anne - Your "concern" is misplaced, and obviously, so is your understanding of the topic. I did not one single time say that you should not feed hay to chins. You need to stop reading into the topic what you want, and actually read what I said.

The only thing I agreed with Tara on is that I have never had a rancher tell me I must feed hay to my chins. Whether you get snarky or mad or twist what I said into anything else - that's still the truth.

Here, I'll say it again, since obviously the other times didn't seem to sink in. I....feed....hay. I....feed....hay.....cubes. There. Can I be any clearer?

As far as the "random" ranchers, I do not feel comfortable giving their actual names without their permission. They don't need a bunch of fanatical pet people screaming and yelling about what they do or don't do, because they don't do what pet people want. Let me assure you, two right off the top of my head are very well known to pretty much any hobby breeder on this forum, and they have most likely purchased animals from them.

I'm sure we're all tremendously grateful for your concern. But one hopes those people stumbling through will actually read the comments instead of only picking out what they want to see.

ETA: Tara, I feed hay 3 times a week. Is that okay?

 

[InkedupTara]

I assume you are talking to me? I am not sure why you are taking it so personally either, I never addressed anyone in specific. Just saying, that I think it does need to be fed more then once a week.

For everyone who is pointing out that people are taking it to personal, you seem to be doing a lot of that.

 

[tunes]

Yes Tara, I was addressing you, since I was the only person on this thread who admitted publically that I do not feed hay every single day. So, to allay your concerns that I might be neglecting my chins dental health, I let you know that I feed my chins hay three times a week.

 

[Carol~Anne]

Spoof:

None of the ranchers I've bought from have given hay, cubed or otherwise. Most just a strait pellet diet, though a few give a supplement.

tunes:

What she said...........

I have a reason to be concerned when a member makes such a bold statement and then an administrator completely backs her up. Yes, you did go on to explain yourself later on but not everyone reads every post and this thread is long.

I like to think of myself as a fairly open-minded person and I do like to hear others' opinions and experiences but I am also careful what I preach to people especially if they are very new to chinchillas. The topic was in the new owners section and I didn't want them checking in briefly for help and then being told all this new (to many of us) information that apparently some rancher came up with that hay is really not necessary.

I have become friends on another forum who have many breeders and a few ranchers on there so it's not like I'm some wacko pet owner that hates everyone who doesn't pamper their chins and house them in a FN and feed them cookies. None of the ones I have spoken to agree with doing away with hay like Spoof has.

 

[tunes]

But Tara didn't say you should do away with hay Carol-Anne. You are making that jump yourself. You are trying to impose your beliefs on her. If she chooses not to use hay, that is her concern, not yours.

I stated that there are ranchers out there who do not feed loose hay or hay cubes, and I agreed with Tara's comment regarding that. Unfortunately, that's the ONLY thing anybody seems to be taking from this thread.

 

[Claire D]

I know I was speaking to you directly Crysta but I was really speaking generally to all those who were presently feeding hay to their chins. I was just quite surprised to log in and find this 'hay is optional b/c some random rancher said so' thread after having been drilled for two full years that hay is absolutely necessary for the health of chinchillas.

Turns out there was really only one person here who said that and really only one other person who agreed with her but the majority of others who also have a great deal of knowledge and experience seem to agree that hay is very important to chins' diet and I am very happy to read those comments.

I was concerned that since this topic was posted in the section for new chinchilla owners who come here for good advice (god knows the pet shops for the most part do not offer good advice at all) that they would think it okay to ditch the hay on account of the opinion of two people and some anonymous rancher.

If this topic had been started in the debate section I wouldn't have been so concerned but it wasn't and I did not want new chinchilla owners to be misled by bad advice or false information. JMO.

I think you're misrepresenting the posts you do not agree with and this is almost certainly the very reason that ranchers no longer post on forums like this one - because anything which does not agree with the "status quo" of pet owners gets blasted. I find it very sad that the narrow-mindedness of people who have a one sided view of chinchilla keeping push all other opinions off the forums.

I also think the lack of respect in some posts and the condescension expressed are totally unnecessary - we have witnessed that several times in this thread from more than one person.

The whole point of a forum is to allow members to make informed choices about the welfare and husbandry of their chinchillas - what has been discussed in this thread are different practices and since there is no real evidence base for dismissing either side it is up to individuals to choose their preferred option. Both sides of the coin have been presented - that's a balanced discussion. Also there are far more people on this thread who do feed hay (and several have given specific reasons for doing so) than those who choose not to. What has been discussed is that some ranchers do not feed hay - that's their choice.
As I said above:
I think it is actually possible to hold opposing views/opinions/practices in tension and then choose which way you personally want to go without dismissing anyone's methods/views.

 

[addictedtochins]

All I know is a chin certainly does need a hay based diet whether it's pellets, cubes or loose because of the small amount of water they drink. I can only imagine how a chin would feel full of a crappy treat filled diet, and very little water (by choice) can anybody say dingleberry?

 

[Carol~Anne]

Unfortunately, that's the ONLY thing anybody seems to be taking from this thread.

Spoofs comment was a very bold statement at the beginning of the thread and you did agree with her so of course that's what people are going to remember.

Yes, you did go on to explain yourself but Spoof still remains firm in her conviction that it is not necessary to feed hay to chinchillas and that is her decision and her business and I am not out to change her mind.

I just don't want new chinchilla owners getting the idea that it's okay to ditch hay b/c one or maybe two people say it's okay, so yes I am going to add my two cents on this subject considering the overwhelming majority of experienced chinchilla people think otherwise.

 

[tunes]

Even though I'm not sure there's a true debate going on here since nobody advocated never giving hay, I think Carol-Anne had a good point that it "could" be debated. So, I'll move it here so it can continue.

OP - I would have split it off, but I'm not sure it would have made much sense without the original question starting it.

 

[Carol~Anne]

I think it is actually possible to hold opposing views/opinions/practices in tension and then choose which way you personally want to go without dismissing anyone's methods/views.

I have no problem discussing anything at all that anyone decides to bring up and am almost always game for it, but I also recognize that there's a time and a place for it and I just didn't think dropping a bomb on new chinchilla owners (and the rest of us) was the right place to do it.

I would be interested in discussing the 'no hay' theory and am open to further discussion of it if anyone has anything else to add. I do think ranchers have a lot of information and advice to offer and I would like to hear what they have to say. It would make more of an impact if the information came from them and not second hand though.

 

[Chinniechantel]

I have heard the same theory, and know who Tunes is talking about. I have heard plenty of times from more than 2 big ranchers/breeders whatever you want to call them, with LOTS of chins, over 1000, that they do not feed hay. They do not need to, have been fine without it for 20+ years or more. They also throw raw apple branches with leaves and flowers on them in the cages and don't have any chins die. I also would never name names since this seems to be a very touchy subject. So, are we being crazy when we bake, boil scrub our wood? Probably. Will I stop? No. I will not. It is not hard and I don't have a hard time doing it, it takes awhile, yes, but I don't mind. Hay though, is a different story for some people.

I feed all my chins hay cubes every other day, while rescues and babies/growers get lose hay daily. I do this for a few reasons, and did not always do it this way. I do believe that some chins are genetically more likely to get malo. I think rescues are more likely to develop it though, they have unknown bloodlines, could be inbred, poor care, no wood, etc. So, I don't chance it and give them unlimited hay. Babies get it too, as I think their teeth are growing and could more easily develop a problem. I am now feeding more hay more often, but that is only because I can find it. I also used to keep all my chins inside the house, and the mess was unreal. No vacuum cleans up hay. Now that they have a chin room in the garage, we do give them hay when we can find a good bale. But that is not that often and I always give them hay cubes.

Like Tunes, Florida hay is crap. I would rather feed T&A cubes and hay when I can than give them unsafe hay. I even resort to buying Kaytee hay for 40+ rescues I have, rather than give them crappy unknown hay from the feed stores. I don't want to give them even a little bit more chance of getting male, where I know my breeders have parents who are 21 years old with no malo in the lines, and I feel better just feeding cubes. It is hard to buy kaytee small bags for 110 chins.

The hay bales here sit in the 110 degree sun baking with gosh only knows what kind of nasty bugs in the feed stores for days, this is after baking in a truck on the way here. I have seen things you don't want to know about in hay and calf manna here. Worms, spider eggs, mites, fleas, dead bugs and worse.

 

[Claire D]

Seriously you need to get over this and let is go - just because you deem it not the right time and place does not mean that discussion cannot take place. The consensus of opinion in this thread is still that hay is a necessary part of the captive chinchilla diet - if 20 people were all saying "there's no need to feed hay" then you'd have a valid argument. As it stands it is just semantics.
There is no "bomb shell" for anyone who has been to or discussed with ranchers the practice of not feeding hay - again, just because you have not had first hand experience does not make it any the less true.

I do think ranchers have a lot of information and advice to offer and I would like to hear what they have to say. It would make more of an impact if the information came from them and not second hand though.

Not a chance - ranchers very sensibly steer clear of forums where they know they are not actually welcome and will be vilified for posting their practices. This thread is a classic example of that with emotive language and unnecessary badgering of members with differing viewpoints. The only way you are going to get information about ranchers is through second hand accounts - and I have to say I don't blame them either.

 

[Spoof]

They also throw raw apple branches with leaves and flowers on them in the cages and don't have any chins die.

I will mention Bruce here because he's retired. I went up there one time and I saw this HUGE chin in this cage, my eyes were popping out I'm sure.

Walked over and it was the knuckle off of an apple tree branch - three times the size of the chin sitting on it - he'd just plopped it, leaves and all in there. lmao.

Every year he'd prune, hack big pieces up with a chainsaw and throw them in cages. Here's some husbandry for you - they only cleaned their cages once a month. He had some beautiful chins though, none were ever in poor health or stained while I was there.

 

[starleomach]

I will admit I do not feed hay every day. They get loose hay periodically it was more often when I lived at home because we have horses and I just had to go to the barn to get it. Now they get hay cubes a few times a week. But I don't feel daily hay is necessary. A lot of ranchers only give hay on cleaning day and many only use hay cubes. Yet they have older healthier animals than a lot of pet people.

I have had good health with what I do. The only chinchillas I have ever had maloclude were rescues I took in.

 

[Carol~Anne]

Seriously you need to get over this and let is go - just because you deem it not the right time and place does not mean that discussion cannot take place. The consensus of opinion in this thread is still that hay is a necessary part of the captive chinchilla diet - if 20 people were all saying "there's no need to feed hay" then you'd have a valid argument. As it stands it is just semantics.
There is no "bomb shell" for anyone who has been to or discussed with ranchers the practice of not feeding hay - again, just because you have not had first hand experience does not make it any the less true.

I thought I did let it go and that's why we're here in the debate section to discuss the theory of a 'no hay' diet.

 

[Claire D]

I thought I did let it go and that's why we're here in the debate section to discuss the theory of a 'no hay' diet.

It's here because you have repeatedly misinterpreted Tara and Peggy's posts and continued to bang on about it ad nauseam.

 

[Carol~Anne]

Well since it's here now we can discuss it here can't we.

Okay, back on topic. Seems I can get first hand information from ranchers after all by just going to the ECBC site. I found this article very interesting and definitely worth a read. It's from their Monthly Web Article about the importance of hay in chins' diet.
--------------

Chinchilla, A Cellulose-Splitter Rodent

http://www.empresschinchilla.com/monthlyarticle.asp

 

[Claire D]

You do know you're having this "argument" all to yourself, don't you?
9/10 people on this thread are pro-hay and have given reasons for their choice. I find it interesting that you continue to push the very thing most of us are agreed on.

 

[InkedupTara]

I find it interesting you keep needing to reply/badger her about her posts. I think the conversation has run its course.

 

[Carol~Anne]

There is one other person for sure that does not feel that hay is essential (probably more) to chins' diet and you only need one person to have a debate with so I don't feel as though I'm arguing with myself. Actually, I feel as though you enjoy arguing with me, lol.

And even if that one or more persons doesn't feel like discussing their 'no hay' theory then I can still post information and articles or whatever else I find interesting on the subject and maybe others will find it interesting too. If you don't want to read what I post. Don't.