diet question

[ticklechin]

Ryersons owns chinchilla.com right? Here is what they say, I personally don't read this as a do what I say, not what I do, they say loose hay at all times. I think we are debating no hay at all, as per Spoof, not cubes VS. loose. I don't think there would be much debate about cubes VS. loose since its true hay is not avaliable everywhere that is good quality.


http://www.chinchillas.com/resource/feed.htm

 

[ticklechin]

Not Rysersons, Ritterspatch, sorry.

 

[Spoof]

The biggest thing is do not tidbit feed. Many people today give all kinds of treats and supplements that are not needed. Feeding a good quality feed, fresh hay and water is all that is needed.

I like this one. More importantly than to hay or not to hay is screwing up their digestive systems with odd goodies.

 

[allchins]

Actually if you look at the Miscellaneous For Sale on Shoots' website, you will see they offer Wyoming hay cubes, so I would think they also would use them & not just sell them.

 

[Claire D]

I think it is worth mentioning here that the majority of people who have chinchilla websites will write information for pet owners in order to cater for that particular "market". Pet keeping is not the same as breeding or ranching and sometimes what is written is not what the website owner actually does but what a pet owner will do - hence the statements on chinchillas.com:

They can have 1-2 raisins or 1-2 sunflower seeds per day, but no more

Apart from the fact that the majority of people now do not agree with feeding raisins, (and this is conjecture on my part, I know) does anyone really think Ritterspatch spend their time going around giving their many chinchilla raisins?
The same can be said for feeding hay in whatever form - websites may have information on it but the writer may not actually do it themselves - the only way to know would be to either speak to the rancher or go visit.
Also if one's business revolves around providing various equipments and foodstuffs for chinchillas then one would stock all sorts of things for pet owners that might not necessarily be fed to one's own chins - again, the hay might be a case in point.

 

[ticklechin]

Not sure why one would assume ranchers would not use some form of hay, not all but some like the ones listed, why not take the websites at face value as assume they do. Cubes are not hard to distribute nor are they very expensive to feed and they are easy to get shipped in.

 

[allchins]

I highly doubt they (Shoots) would carry hay cubes from Wyoming only to sell to people. Seriously, when they have to get it in by the truck load I'm pretty sure they're using it themselves, I can't imagine people would be buying that much of it.
And no, their business doesn't revolve around the pet people.

 

[chinsNdobermans]

If you look at the pictures on the site you do see hay cubes in the cages, at least in some of the pictures.

 

[Claire D]

I highly doubt they (Shoots) would carry hay cubes from Wyoming only to sell to people. Seriously, when they have to get it in by the truck load I'm pretty sure they're using it themselves, I can't imagine people would be buying that much of it.
And no, their business doesn't revolve around the pet people.

Errr..... :hmm: I think you misread my post
It is not aimed at any specific rancher but in general terms and also note the "might be a case in point".

 

[starleomach]

Most Ranchers feed Hay cubes. They started to feed cubes because it is cleaner and more covinient than loose hay. But I also know a couple that feed loose hay on cleaning day by putting it on top of the runs. I always have hay cubes in the cages and I do loose hay once a week sometimes more sometimes less, it has been less since the wedding keeping hay in my house now isn't an option so if I bring it in I have to bring just enough for a day or two.

 

[ticklechin]

The last word I have to say that I don't think has been said is this: Pet people have "pet chins" alot are rescues, alot are bought from "backyard breeders" alot are bought at pet stores and not alot are bought from "ranchers" so the genetic issue of malo and lazy chewing chins is very real for pet owners, I still think loose hay is best for pet chins since the diversity of their backgrounds is so huge, chins on a ranch that are culled for teeth issues may do just fine since the lazy chewers are culled and the malo is culled or ones with rotten teeth are culled, but those of us who have chins from "unknown backgrounds" should assume we may have issues and try our best to keep our chins chewing, and if that means loose hay and cubes so be it. Just my last 2 cents.

 

[Becky]

A couple of things:

First, Ritterspach does not own chinchillas.com. He supplies the animals, but Laurie owns the site and decides what is on the website.

Second, no one has said that NO ranchers give hay, but that not all do. No one has suggested that pet people (or anyone else) shouldn't give hay if they want to.

Third, most chins have rancher chins in their backgrounds somewhere. I know that most rescues come without pedigrees, but it's there. The vast majority of pet store chins come from ranchers.

Fourth, this whole conversation is pretty silly. If you want to feed hay, do so! If not, no one will make you. It's really up to everyone to do what works for them and what they think is best.

 

[Claire D]

First, Ritterspach does not own chinchillas.com. He supplies the animals, but Laurie owns the site and decides what is on the website.

Ah right, fair enough, I did not know that - thank you.
Site ownership aside though, the points in my post remain pertinent.

Fourth, this whole conversation is pretty silly. If you want to feed hay, do so! If not, no one will make you. It's really up to everyone to do what works for them and what they think is best.

This made me smile - I think most people would agree with you but some people on this thread wanted it pushed into a debate. You've probably come up with the most sensible comment since then, Becky. :laughitup:

 

[ticklechin]

"Third, most chins have rancher chins in their backgrounds somewhere. I know that most rescues come without pedigrees, but it's there. The vast majority of pet store chins come from ranchers"


Then where does genetic malo come from if ranchers are culling malo chins? Have there not been enough generations of chins born to at least slow the rate of malo showing up if they were culled from the top down, meaning ranchers to hobby breeders? Maybe I don't get it and I am sorry but either its genetic or its a product of their environment since it does not show up in wild chins-I am assuming its because either wild chins are eating the diet they were designed for or its they are culled naturally in the wild.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11451406?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=1&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed

Its a off topic question so if its appropriate to delete it in moderation I am ok with it.

 

[Carol~Anne]

The last word I have to say that I don't think has been said is this: Pet people have "pet chins" alot are rescues, alot are bought from "backyard breeders" alot are bought at pet stores and not alot are bought from "ranchers" so the genetic issue of malo and lazy chewing chins is very real for pet owners, I still think loose hay is best for pet chins since the diversity of their backgrounds is so huge, chins on a ranch that are culled for teeth issues may do just fine since the lazy chewers are culled and the malo is culled or ones with rotten teeth are culled, but those of us who have chins from "unknown backgrounds" should assume we may have issues and try our best to keep our chins chewing, and if that means loose hay and cubes so be it. Just my last 2 cents.

^^ These are good points and do make a lot of sense to me.

It's up to everyone to make up their own mind how they take care of their chinchilla, how they house them, what they feed them and what they don't feed them etc. That's pretty obvious.

I will still strongly recommend to everyone I come across, whether in real life or on the Internet that adding hay to their chin(s) diet is highly beneficial and recommended by most people who are knowledgeable about chinchillas. If more information comes out in the future about this subject I will keep an open mind and listen to what is being said.

In the meantime I never want to give anyone the impression that just b/c 'some' ranchers who deal in large amounts of animals find it more convenient and more economic to fore go hay means that the average pet owner or breeder should do the same.

And I don't think an article that was written in 1979 or 1879 for that matter should be discounted b/c of its age b/c there's still a lot of good information in older articles that still can apply today. I'm sure if the ECBC thought that they wouldn't have chosen to post the article dated 1979 on the front page of their site last month.

 

[Spoof]

Then where does genetic malo come from if ranchers are culling malo chins? Have there not been enough generations of chins born to at least slow the rate of malo showing up if they were culled from the top down, meaning ranchers to hobby breeders?

Malo is rarely genetic in the pet world, most of it is unintentionally nutrition related. As far as malo in the rancher world, the trait can be passed on as a carrier for generations then just randomly pop up in two animals.

Remember the original chinchilla population came from only 11 animals, so it's not hard to figure that line breeding that much caused some early issues.

 

[Becky]

To expand on what Tara said, the reason we will never get rid of malo is because it is recessive. You can breed a chinchilla for years and years and have no idea that they are a carrier until you put them with a mate that is also a carrier. Even then, not all of their offspring will develop malo. Since it usually takes several years for the malo to show, there could be many offspring of the pair by the time it is known.

 

[ticklechin]

Malo is rarely genetic in the pet world, most of it is unintentionally nutrition related. As far as malo in the rancher world, the trait can be passed on as a carrier for generations then just randomly pop up in two animals.

Remember the original chinchilla population came from only 11 animals, so it's not hard to figure that line breeding that much caused some early issues.

Can you expand on what a pet owner does to cause malo, since Merrit chins says he feels malo is almost always genetic?

 

[MerrittChinchillas]

I agree with Becky, this is a pretty silly conversation. You either feed it or you don't. Find out whats right for your herd and do it. Hay is good for them, but hay is hay, whether it is in loose, pellet or cubes. Malo is recessive and can pop up at any time, just like Becky said. If you think that malo in the pets comes from strictly diet, you are sadly mistaken. As far as it happening in the wild, how do you know that for a fact?

 

[tunes]

As far as it happening in the wild, how do you know that for a fact?

I wondered about that myself. There could easily be malo in the wild, but a chin with malo would start to lose weight and become weaker. This would make them even easier prey, and they would be killed quicker. Other than that, I don't know how anyone prove absolutely that there is no malo in the wild.