Ringworm or other fungus....what will the vet do?

[menagerie]

First, have you separated the two chins? It looks like she is being beaten up. I know you said you don't see them fight but they are. If you don't separate her now you might come home to a dead chin. I experienced this once with a pair of boys I was chin sitting and it was horrific. There were no previous signs of trouble. You are being presented with evidence of fighting, take it as a HUGE warning and separate them immediately.

I notice that you said you used Desenex, you were told to use Tinactin. They are different products with different active ingredients. This could be why she is itching. Tinactin: Tolnaftate (1%) Desenex: Miconazole Nitrate (2%).

Teeth grinding is a sign of pain. With those wounds she is in pain and will need pain meds.

I agree with Peggy, do not use hydrogen peroxide. It is indiscriminate in what it kills and will kill off healthy and healing tissue as well as bad things. I would use a saline solution to flush the wound.

 

[Dustbunnies]

Sorry....it was the tolnaftate I was using. I was doing "as I was told."

Setting up the second cage now. Watching them constantly otherwise. Seen tons of threads with measures being taken to reduce dominance and aggression.....have I none of those options? Also, I wish you could see the rather loving way that Pepper has been "chewing" on Bunny...even her wound....she is being gentle. They will be separated...but I do think you misread me. I now believe that Bunny has chewed her own fur....while I have seen Pepper genlty chew on her fur, Bunny has been itching all over....I am pretty sure it is Bunny that made the barbering spots now.

Peggy, I think water or saline is a good idea. Will trim if I can safely....she wiggles but good! Thought maybe I should take it easy on the blu-kote so I can see the wound better (the shoulder one, not the nose). Also, Peggy, do you still think they are both fight wounds? Or fungus? Or is it too hard to say? It did really look round from the start...but who knows.

She is happily running in the wheel. Everyone think I need metacam for this? Are there any common complications to that drug? She grinded her teeth for a few seconds. Otherwise a happy chin. Will get pain meds tomorrow if that seems the best option.

Also, as a paranoid and curious mama....I have taken at least an hour long footage with night vision most nights of them (handycam will only tape an hour) and watched it the next morning. This has given me a glimpse into what they do when I am not standing there. I know it isn't all night....but it is a lot of sampling and gives me some insight.

 

[saphire]

That is a great idea the night vision camera. Give us some imput.

 

[Dustbunnies]

First..I forgot to say there is no bedding. Her cage currently has wire floors (but mostly covered in solid surfaces). She pees usually through the wire onto a white liner far below. This is great for monitoring pees. Paper liner thrown away (along with most every poo from the surfaces).

Next, Sapphire, I have a handycam camcorder with a night vision mode. I use the rewritable mini CD-Rs in it. It isn't cheap to do....but it is a good tool for a new mama or just for curious fun. Somewhere around here I have a little security camera and receiver that will be better for that...can buy them online. Remote webcams work, too.

My handycam seems to shut itslef off after a while of running out of room. I have an extended battery on it...which I am sure I will ruin using so much...but they are our babies, right?

 

[saphire]

As you say, they are the babies... thumbs up
Did you see anything interesting or any different that you would have expected.

 

[Sasha]

If you don't think it's mites and want to know if it's ringworm ask for a skin scrapping. They can use special light to tell if it's fungus or look under the microscope for spores. I've personally never heard of mites in chins. Fungus attacks the hair follicles and causes them to fall out and is extremely itchy, which fit your description.

To me, those pictures look a heck of a lot like what my chins had. You know they were treated with baytril & oral meds but we did wash the wounds with chlorhexadine(the solution for bumblefoot, I think that's the name) and wewere giving metacam for pain. He eventually had to get a cone due to an eye infection but I don't know ifthat was related to the fungus.

 

[tunes]

That's the solution I was trying to remember last night Sasha. The chlorhexidine. I was drawing a blank on it. I don't remember your fungus looking that bad, like an open wound. At least, not the pictures you posted on CnQ way back when. Can you repost them for comparison? I would also think that if it was fungus, if it was that bad, the cagemate would have it as well.

Either way, whether it's fungus or a wound, (I wish your vet would have done a scraping) the antibiotics and Blu-Kote should help take care of it. Dustbunnies already commented that they used the blue light and saw no fungus, so to be sure they should have done a scraping.

I didn't go all the way back to the beginning, but do I remember somewhere you saying your dog had ringworm? Because other than someone bringing it in, or poor husbandry (which it definitely doesn't sound like), the other option for the fungus might be immune system compromise, i.e., maybe your chin is feeling under the weather. Hopefully, again, the antibiotics will take care of that.

 

[Dustbunnies]

My dog has chronic sensitive skin. He gets skin infections once a year or so (not real bad, just enough for a course of meds). No one has said it was ringworm for 12 years. And I do have a great dog vet.

They didn't do the skin scraping because they thought the blu-kote would interfere.

Bunny has gotten more of the blue off now, but there isn't much to scrape because it is kind of fresh skin ( a little raw). Maybe in a day or two.

I can say that it didn't look anything like this when it was a smaller area. Looked like fur had fallen out (maybe with the help of chewing/scratching).

The chlorhexadine sounds good. Used something similar when we first got my dog (12 years ago)....his shampoo then was chlorhexaderm (we used at as handsoap for a while to prevent getting his ringworm, the only time he had it).

I guess I will ask the vet about metacam, too.

I can say that it didn't look anything like this when it was a smaller area. Looked like fur had fallen out (maybe with the help of chewing/scratching).

She has been pretty happy before and even mostly now.

The sulfa does not need to be refrigerated, right? The vet techs said no....just want to check, though.

 

[Sasha]

Ill post the picswhen I get home from wok as I'm on my phone right now but Lokis oozed and pussed. It was pretty gruesome looking.
They can do skin scrapings even around the area where blukote isn't. Chances are spores are there too.
The chlorhexadine was amazing. Helped clear the wound and since it's an antibiotic it was treating it as well.
Sulfa needs to be stored in a dark place. I kept mine in a closed cupboard.
Oh and as for the cagemates - Loki and Bailey were separated once I found the lesions but Bailey never got it. Loki is also smaller and I believe has a compromised immune system. Kobie and kumiko were just a few months old and also got it. Younger chins have not as developed immune systems. Kumiko had a sore from scratching but Kobie only had fur loss, no wounds. They were cagemates as well.

 

[tunes]

I just throw my Sulfa on top of the fridge where it's handy to grab when I need it, or in my chin first aid box.

 

[Dustbunnies]

It has been in a dark area. I will put it in a cupboard though. Thanks. Waiting to hear from vet if he will give me chlorhexadine and metacam.

 

[Dustbunnies]

Vet said okay to both. Going to pick them up.

Any complications I should watch out for with metacam, or is it pretty mild?

Also, what dosage is typical? I just want to compare your experiences with what the vet gives to be extra safe.

 

[Dustbunnies]

Brendan called and said the vet gave him Malaseb toweletts on top of the stuff we asked for. They contain meconazole nitrate and the chlorhexadine gluconate.

I don't figure these are chin safe, but I guess I can use them on my dog, so no biggie.

Any thoughts, though? The benefit would be anti-fungal properties in case there is a fungus.

I know....they are not dogs...but he did give me all the meds I asked for last night and today, just more, which is better than the dude that said "my way or the highway."

The question is...is miconazole nitrate bad for them?

 

[saphire]

My experiences with metacam (pain killer) following neuteuring has been excellent. No side effects on my chins. The dosage was .1ml per day.

For the other meds, I cannot help much for I have not experienced them. I am convinced Tunes can help there.

Good luck

 

[Dustbunnies]

Um....he told me 1 c.c. (1 mL). I already gave it to her!

 

[tunes]

I have never heard of using miconazole nitrate on chins before. It's the active ingredient in Monistat vaginal cream for women. I honestly don't know if that would be safe to use on a chin. I would think just the chlorhexidine would be the better choice.

Here are the side effects for humans:

The following side effects have been reported with the use of miconazole nitrate vaginal cream; a temporary increase in burning, itching, and/or irritation when the cream is inserted. Abdominal cramping, headaches, hives, and skin rash have also been reported.

I can't find any reference for it being used with chins, only dogs, although they do say in there are no side effects if ingested (as far as they know). In people if ingested, it can cause liver damage.

The Metacam is .1 mL per dose. 1 mL would be the entire syringe and that's too much Metacam for a little fidget like you have.

 

[Dustbunnies]

Crud. I called the vet before and he confirmed the dosage of 1cc of the .5 mg/mL fluid. I gave it to her and then left home! Will this kill her? What am I going to do?

This is not the 1.5mg/mL solution that they also sell

 

[saphire]

.3ml of your .5mg/mlwill keep her comfortable.
Lets simplify this:

I gave .1ml of a 1.5mg/ml for 4 days after surgery which kept my 420gram boy at the time comfortable

In your case with a med of .5mg/ml you would give .3ml to equal the dosage I gave.
So bring it down to .3ml once a day and given at the same time every day .

Things will be fine

 

[menagerie]

The chlorhexadine was amazing. Helped clear the wound and since it's an antibiotic it was treating it as well.

Chlorhexidine is an antimicrobial, not an antibiotic.

Sulfa needs to be stored in a dark place. I kept mine in a closed cupboard.

I keep mine out in the open too. We had one vet say it should be kept in the dark because someone misread the photo sensitivity warning on the bottle. That refers to staying out of the sun as it increases photo sensitivity and will increase the risk of sun burn.

Brendan called and said the vet gave him Malaseb toweletts on top of the stuff we asked for. They contain meconazole nitrate and the chlorhexadine gluconate.

I have never heard of using miconazole nitrate on chins before. It's the active ingredient in Monistat vaginal cream for women.

At the rescue, we use both Malaseb shampoo and Monistat vaginal cream on guinea pigs with fungal infections. Granted, guinea pigs don't groom the way chins do. We've also used Monistat on rats with ringworm with no long term side effects. I also know of someone who spot treats ringworm on chins with Malaseb. Make sure it's rubbed in, so there is nothing to groom off.

 

[tunes]

Good to know Meanie. I'm thinking we should add this (Malaseb) to the first aid kit thread, to be used safely for fungal issues/infections.