Reputable Dog Breeders and Debarking

[greychins]

One of my friends is looking into getting a sheltie, and so we were talking about finding a reputable breeder for her to get one from. I'm sure like is the case with chin breeders, just because there's a nice website doesn't automatically mean great breeder. But anyway... getting to the question.

There's a breeder that's a few hours from us that my friend has apparently admired the pictures on their website for awhile, so I was on their website just browsing... there dogs have the certifications you typically see, CERF and VWD and such... but what struck me as a bit odd... all the dogs they sell, with the exception of the ones that are very young puppies, are debarked.

Now I can't say from experience that I've ever heard what a debarked dog sounds like. I do have a sheltie, and she does bark now and then, but never enough that I would think to have her debarked. When I got her, I knew shelties could be yappy, but in my mind, the solution would never be to debark. I suppose maybe that's something more done in a kennel situation - the breeder in question looks to have about 20 dogs, not including puppies, so I imagine 20+ dogs barking could get a bit noisy.

My friend insists that it's not surprising that a sheltie breeder would debark all their dogs, as she insists that they're a "yappy" breed. I personally am not crazy about the idea of debarking-- I guess I sort of think that if you're planning on owning and breeding 20 dogs, you should be aware and live with how they naturally are - and dogs naturally bark.

I guess, for me, the debarking sort of calls into question what kind of a breeder they are... but maybe it shouldn't. I don't breed dogs, and I don't know enough about that to say whether it's common place or not. Any thoughts on whether actual reputable breeders debark their dogs? Or whether they should?

 

[Mt. Zion Chins]

I would NEVER buy from a breeder who debarks the dogs. Yes, shelties 'can' be barkers. I love the breed and have had 3 and never had much trouble with the barking. It is very cruel to debark an animal - there is no reason to. With some training it can be kept under control. If you can't deal with the barking or train the dog properly then you shouldn't get a sheltie. They are also a very active dog that is always looking for things to do - so they tend to get 'in trouble' a lot. Sounds as if your friend really should not get a sheltie. She will only make the sheltie unhappy

 

[Sycamore Chins]

Debarking does not DEbark the dog. The dog can still bark it is just much lower in pitch and a lot rougher. I met a debarked sheltie and instead of yapping he sounded like his voice was coming out of a boxer with cotton in his throat.

Debarking is not at all effective for the recovery the dogs have to go through.

 

[Bostongirl'sChin75]

Not only is it not necessary to debark a dog, it is also cruel. Dogs bark because they use it as warning to the pack that there are predators around. In domesticated dogs, they use it as a way of communicating to their humans that something is wrong or they need something in the way of food, water, love etc. Would they decry their baby to stop it from crying? Probably not, so why do it to a dog?:hair:

I would tell your friend not to buy from this breeder or any other breeder. the SPCA and HS and other shelters are full of dogs that need homes, even pure breeds can be found there. Why not tell her to look there instead. Petfinders.com is another good place to look and your friends would give a dog that really needs one, a home. And a dog that you rescue would love you for life and be ever loyal! You just do not get that kind of love and devotion from one you get a a breeders, IMO.

 

[Kalandra]

Its also illegal in some countries as "convenience devocalization" it is considered a form of mutilation. Even the AVMA states that it should only be done after behavioral modification efforts to correct excessive vocalization have failed. Not that I agree that it should ever be done.

 

[eroomlorac]

I can't believe they'd be able to find a vet who would debark the dogs. I have heard a debarked dog bark once. It was like a loud, whisper bark. Like when a human has laryngitis. I consider it extremely cruel. And I would not buy from a breeder who does that to their dogs. If the dog's barking REALLY drives you nuts, then I'd try training first and if that is not successful, then I'd try an electronic bark collar.

 

[sheltiefan]

one of my best friends is a sheltie breeder in Tx. I have gotten all 3 of my shelties from her. They are wonderful dogs. And yes they bark but I would NEVER debark a dog. My friend has about 25 shelties and the all bark there heads off when people come around. But that is what dogs do. I personally would never by from a breeder who thinks this is ok. Growing up my neighbor had a sheltie ( that is when i learned about them and fell in love with them ) But her dog was debarked. And you think its annoying when they bark. Once they are debarked it just sound like a dog who has sore throat and is horsed from barking. I also think its cruel to debark them. The vet cuts its vocal cords. and that is not the natual dog anymore. I also owned pits i never cropped its ears because i like the dog natual they way god inteded it to be

 

[fanofdmb84]

As soon as I learned that I would have run in the opposite direction. Debarking all the dogs is insanity. What concerns me just as much is the fact that they have 20 dogs, which I'm assuming are breeding dogs. Most GOOD breeders only have a few, or at least only breed one or two pairs at a time, so they can focus on those puppies. "Breeders" who breed 5, 8, 15 pairs of dogs at the same time are just churning out puppies to make money. There is no feasible way they could put the time and effort into those dogs.

Go with your first gut reaction...if its an uneasy one, look elsewhere. Why not find a sheltie rescue?

 

[RedEarth]

Here are some links to finding a reputable breeder.

http://www.hkc.org/breederchoice.htm
http://www.humanesociety.org/issues/puppy_mills/tips/finding_good_dog_breeder.html
http://www.akc.org/breederinfo/breeder_search.cfm

Debarking a dog should always be as a last resort, not the first choice. This breeder may be facing some noise ordinances or complaining neighbors. I personally have never debarked a dog, though I have been around plenty that have. Most have done just fine. However, there are serious side affects, such as major breathing problems that can occur from doing it.
When looking to purchase a purebred dog, you need to ask a lot of questions of the breeder. What health problems are there, what health issues are there in the pedigrees, what do you plan to get from the breeding, do they take back dogs that they have sold, what titles have the parents received, and on and on. You need to also be aware of all the health tests recommended by the AKC breed club and ask if the dogs have had them done. Ask to see the certificates. Check with breed rescue if you are not set on a little puppy. They have wonderful dogs available and are screened for health and temperament before being placed.

 

[Jenn]

I think it is wrong for a breeder, of all people, to presume that all of their dogs would be problem barkers, and that anyone looking to adopt would want a debarked dog. I would never consider debarking my dogs, even now that I have a chihuahua pup, who are also known to be a yippy dog. I plan on training her as best I can to not become an excessive barker. Dogs bark, just as humans speak, and it is cruel to take that away from them. There may be individuals who do need to debark their dogs for whatever reason, but that is for the individual to decide, and should only be done if other training methods have failed. But again, I think it is very irresponsible of the breeder to debark all dogs from their facility, and I certainly wouldn't be getting any animals from them. It is best to look elsewhere.

 

[CTChin]

I don't like debarking either. If you don't like barking, don't get a sheltie. Just like I can't stand a cat that meows loud and often so I will never get a siamese.

I don't know about the state I live in...I'll have to look it up....but a vet tech once told me snidely on Rhode Island craigslist that it was not illegal there and it is just a "little operation" so get over it. I told be be quiet or I was going to come and perform the "little operation" on her and see how she likes it. LOL Wasn't one of my proudest moments but it is not a surgery that should be considered routine. Surgery is surgery. It involves anesthesia, drugs, cutting, bleeding, altercation etc.

I've heard rumors that puppy mills debark their dogs by stuffing a pipe down their throat. I honestly wouldn't doubt it because puppy millers consider their dogs livestock and money makers.

 

[chinchillalover0927]

my mother use to always joke about debarking a poodle we had when i was younger...she would have never actually gone through with it but she talked to the vet about it when she worked there to ask if people really did do that and he said yes. He also say id that you most likely will not find any vet in the state of mississippi or louisiana that would do it because they find it extremely cruel to the dog.... Can you imagine waking up one day and you cant talk anymore???

 

[Megan]

I'd run as far away as I could. It's amazing what people do. They decrow roosters... Uh don't get a rooster if you don't want to listen to the crow! Remove the venom glands of a venomous reptiles... Don't keep the pet if you're too afraid it will kill ya--that shows you aren't equipped to handle the animal!

I don't agree with debarking,declawing,decrowing etc. Simply because I'm a firm believer that if you get a pet you should leave it the way it's meant to be---or don't get it. I'm not going to buy a tiger and declaw/defang it just because I'm afraid it may bite me. I'm not going to buy a dog and debark it because I'm afraid it will bark...

 

[starleomach]

short and simple IMPO reputable breeders do not de-bark

 

[minrex]

Would they decry their baby to stop it from crying? Probably not, so why do it to a dog?:hair:

I decry loud babies all the time, but I would never have one devocalized.

Anyway, I wouldn't buy from a breeder who debarks all their dogs. I don't like the idea of such procedures except in extreme circumstances.

 

[3CsMommy]

Rather than run in the opposite direction, I'd try to find what vet is committing this cruelty and then report *both* the vet and the breeder to local rescues and kennel clubs. Can't call the authorities b/c it's sadly not illegal here, but making other dog people aware of what they think is ethical treatment of breeding animals is a good first step to making them rethink their barbarism.

 

[greychins]

Well, I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one with those feelings about the debarking. Like I said, that just set off the red warning lights in my head when I read that. I agree with everyone that's said that certain animals do certain things, and if you don't like it, you don't get those types of animals. I also agree that animals can be trained-- my sheltie is not very yappy... and neither is a different friend's pom... though I do know plenty of shelties/poms that are yappy.... and it's just that me and that other friend raised our dogs without tolerating the yappiness.

I'm working on getting my friend to adopt from the local sheltie rescue, but I hate to say that while I do imagine they find good homes... they make people jump through so many hoops that most of the dogs that were in foster homes for the rescue 3 years ago when I was looking... are still in those foster homes. Don't get me wrong I imagine when a sheltie does go home, it is a stellar home, but I know one major factor in adopting a sheltie from this one specific place relates to being gone from your home no more than a few hours at a time (like 2-3). Most people I know work (including my friend and I), which means possibly 8+ hours from home at a time... so there was no way I could adopt from them, and probably not my friend either, although she does have several people in the house so I imagine it's possible someone might always be home.

Though her main concern about adopting from a rescue... the one I'm thinking of charges something like $350ish for their dogs, a bit cheaper if it's an old one. Now, granted, the breeder in question that debarks charges $900 (pets) -1600+ (breeder registration)... but my friend is of the mindset of "well if I'm gonna pay $900, at least I get AKC pedigree and this and that, but I pay $350, that's still a lot of money, and I get a pet with issues that someone didn't want." Which, you know, I try to explain isn't always the case, many pets are rehomed through no fault of their own, but at the moment she's really of the mindset that a "breeder" couldn't be wrong about how to take care of their dogs. *rolls eyes* I guess she assumes because people breed, they must all do it correctly... I've told her about byb's.... and I do agree with the person that said that if they have 20 dogs (which I admit, I have no idea if they're all in breeding) they probably are in it for the money, as the people that I know and respect that breed dogs responsibly (but not sheltie breeders) have a pair or two. Also, on the website, it talks about how they let 3-4 shelties in the house at a time and it seems like the rest stay in runs/kennels. Apparently this doesn't raise red flags to my friend, but if I was getting a puppy, I'd personally want one from a home that always had the parent dogs around and didn't "rotate" which ones were in the house on a given day...

I'll have to look on like petfinder and stuff for my friend, see if I can find her anything. I'll also look at those links posted, thanks! I'm trying to lead her down the path to finding a good breeder, if that's where she wants to get a puppy from, because I don't think she intentionally would get one from a bad breeder, but I just don't think she knows what to look for. Although I admit, I have no idea where she heard that debarking is no big deal....

 

[3CsMommy]

If you need a scare tactic, there's always the ongoing fight against Puppy Mills: http://www.prisonersofgreed.org/ (Don't go there if you've got a weak stomach. Nothing terribly graphic, but clear depictions of suffering dogs, most of them toy breeds.)

With 20+ mostly debarked dogs, that breeder is starting to sound like a mill to me.

 

[greychins]

Thanks for the website, I'll look at it and pass it along. I'm trying to steer her clear, now that for sure I know that a reputable breeder wouldn't do this (I was pretty sure, but wanted to be positive, that's why I posted). I'm not sure what the big deal is with my friend liking this breeder.... from what I understand, she's just oggled the website forever, and now has money or something, it almost seems like I want it I want it I want it, now it may not be great but I want it!!!... but I'm trying to tell her that if she gets one from a rescue or humane society or whatever, she could spend the other portion of the $900+ she would have spent on toys and things for the dog... this may be working...

The more I look at the website, the more just doesn't appear right. Like they say somewhere on the website about how they "limit themselves to around 15 adults" (or something of that nature) so they can give each their individual attention. Now, while it does say one of them stays home.... I can hardly give attention to my ONE dog, I mean, most shelties I know are attention-seekers.....if I had 24 free hours in a day, she'd want to play 24 hours (which is fine, no big deal). There's no way 15+ dogs (plus puppies!) are getting individualized attention. Plus... they call themselves a "small hobby kennel" - with 15 dogs? Right. And... "Every dog here is micro-chipped and all breeding/show stock that we keep is bark softened." *shakes head*

 

[saphire]

3 reasons that I know of for sure not too
1 - dogs have a job, to bark when there is danger or to warn you of strangers etc..
2 - I have seen a short haired chiwawa that was forgotten outside in the winter near death when found. She was devocalized.
3 - if your dog gets loose and falls in a well, manhole, etc. , what are his chances of survival.
ANY dog can be yappy, so to devocalize because he may or may not be yappy is a little disturbing to me.