Number of females in herd

[mishalaa]

MCBA's Master Breeder award is only for chins shown at the Nationals. You need to show 30 chins to qualify, and whoever has the most points wins. I like the idea of accumulating points at different shows throughout the year, though. Is that how it is done in ECBC?

 

[jags]

MCBA's Master Breeder award is for any MCBA show that wants to use that format and have that many trophy's. The Michigan show also has the Master Breeders award if anyone shows enough animals to earn it. You must show at least 30 animals of three different colors. The animals each exhibitor show are then averaged and the person with the highest average wins.

Points are not added up from show to show, each MCBA and ECBC shows stand alone in points.

 

[Riven]

So doing a 5 chin average would probably be very hard on small shows who need the entry fees to survive.

 

[designer chins]

nope, just the slew of odd hobbies that is my life,

I love this! I am writing it down. It's my quote of the day: very applicable to my life too!!

 

[mishalaa]

Small shows don't have master breeders or section awards - except MI... (Didn't know about that one!) York has the Bob Myers breeder award, which is average of top 5 for breeders 10yrs experience or less, and York has been one of the larger shows. I still don't see how averaging top 5 would hurt entries.

 

[jags]

I do not agree with what I am about to say but others seem to want it this way. If at a show you are not showing for the Master Breeders Award and have the chance to bring 10-12 decent chins of one color and have a chance to beat someone else who shows just 5 top animals would you? Yes some would say its not right and the best is not rewarded but the 10-12 animals could place higher for section breeders awards than the 5 possible much better animals. But then again if you switch all color sections to average of 5 is five animals really enough to judge the quality of most standard herds. I know that at ECBC shows the first 10 animals for my show string of 20 standards are much easier to pick and are of better quality and show shape than the next 10. Another thing to consider is that the best quality animals do not always win the show. Alot of times it has to do with the condition the animals is in come show time. By the way there are only a handfull of ranch's that compete for the Master Breeders Award each year bringing 30+ animals for the show.

 

[Riven]

I still don't see how averaging top 5 would hurt entries.

The thought here is... on a total points system I could bring 20 animals that all place seconds and thirds, and someone could bring say 5 chins that all place firsts and say one is a class champ. The person bringing more would beat them on shear volume, even though their animals all were placed lower. And that is kind of a problem.

But if they moved it to a 5 chin average, by taking only the top five chins you show ( which I think would be more paper work at the desk as well because they'd have to sort out the top ones for each person ) then why bring 10 or 20, when you can just bring your 5 best?

I think the best answer would be a total average. If you have 20 animals add them up and divide by 20, this would give you the average "level" of your animals. Or just leave it the same... lol. I think Dan's thought is finding a more true way of figuring up breeder awards, so people can't win on shear volume with more animals, over someone who has nicer animals but just didn't bring half their herd. It would be interesting to try a total average of entries per person and see what difference that would make in a list of breeder award winners.

 

[brenda]

Small shows don't have master breeders or section awards - except MI... (Didn't know about that one!) York has the Bob Myers breeder award, which is average of top 5 for breeders 10yrs experience or less, and York has been one of the larger shows. I still don't see how averaging top 5 would hurt entries.

WI had a master breeder award the first year, but did not have anyone that qualified, so we no longer do it. I was also told, by another member, after having a an award available, that only nationals does master breeder, so I no longer pushed it. If we would have someone qualify for it, I would have it available again.

 

[Chinmandan]

So it seems like theres momentum toward capping at 5 or 10, If thats the general consensus Im good with that, however, I am telling you! If this is the route you go the same top rancher who always cleans up will still clean up except rather than bringing 20 entries in standards and mutes they will bring their 5 standards and 5 mutes and the result will be the same. Wow, what a prospect! Let me know how that change goes for ya!

Most people(I didnt say all) has never even looked at an expense sheet for running a show which illustrates my biggest beef with this. You will have to raise the rate per animal to exhibit(like up to $20) just to keep up with show hall expenses and then you have a much smaller show where everybody cherrypicks (their already cherrypicked) showteam. I really cant say that a 24 animal standard show and a 25 animal mutation show (or as the case may be, a 49 animal MCBA show) is exactly where I want this industry to go!

 

[mishalaa]

If it were a total point average, I would only bring my best five. That would be enough to qualify for the award, and not have my average lowered by the other animals in my string that I could have brought but didn't. I do not support this option as it would affect entry numbers.

If it were average of top 5 - I would bring every standard/sapphire/et. al in decent show condition I have, because I don't have to worry about the lesser chins bringing my average down, and I'd be able to hear the comments on the others. Also, bringing every chin I have lets the judge pick who my top 5 are, rather than me trying to figure out which chins would place highest. This option encourages entry numbers among smaller breeders who now have a shot at competing against large scale breeders (there have been more than a few, myself included, small breeders at York who scrounge up a 4th and 5th chin just to qualify for Bob Myers - imagine if that were done for each section, a 5th beige, a 5th violet....) However, would a larger breeder, like you Randy, really bring only the 10 standards that you easily identified instead of the full 20 if done this way, even though the 10 others wouldn't touch your average? The only reason you would bring a full 20 is to have that edge in the standard section award? You wouldn't still bring 20 to go for Master Breeder? I know only a handful go for Master Breeder, but that's the same handful that is bringing more than 5 animals in the mute color sections. Since the bulk of the entry fees come from the large ranchers, and the standard section, I kind of see the hesitation to change. But I still think it would do a world of good for the number of mute entries. Yes, Shoots will still mop up in the blacks and beiges, but I'd be thrilled to walk away with 3rd just because I brought a fifth black.

Maybe you could do the mute section awards and the standard section award differently - based on number of section entries. Say, if there's less than 50 in the section, award will be based on average of top 5. More than 50, straight total (or top 10/top 15/straight average/whatever.)

I don't want to compromise entry fees - I'm all for shows and MCBA making money, and am willing to help where I can. The shows and the organization have, on the whole, been a success thus far, so I can live with leaving things the way they are. There is a bit of an image problem with lesser animals winning awards out of shear volume, but who outside of the MCBA pays attention or cares? All my poking and jabbing and stick in the mudding is just brainstorming, to do things better without losing anything, and perhaps grow.

 

[Show-MeChins]

i do not agree with taking the number of animals that you show down from 20 to 5. I take animals to learn and help others (maybe) i always try to take as many as i can. The more animals at the show the better idea you have of what your breeding. I mean if i take my top 5 animals and another breeder takes its top 5 animals... the show is down to 10 animals for two ..usually full or close to it people. 40 animals to 10?.. not a very good show in my opionion. And if a really good breeder takes their top 5 animals and another person coming in takes a few animals that they think are very good quality and they get the crap beat out of them, they may just quit and give up all together... BAM lost a gunna be AWESOME breeder (you dont know)... I mean there is a BIG difference under that light between EXTRODIARY animals and Good/great animals. If i had gotten the snot beat out of me, i KNOW i probably wouldnt have the 230 animals that i do today.

My first show i showed 1 std male. and got a first (very excited mind you) and 3 years dow nthe road (at Heartland Oct show in Burlington) I took i think 12 Stds and 15 mutes (show was a 15 animal string) ended up with GSC Std and 3rd besh of show ebony... if i would have gotten stomped on at the beginning... i would have never tried to buy the best i could and gain the higher quality as best as i could.


I think the 20 show strings help motivate smaller breeders... they may never want to show a full string, and if they dont... they shouldnt get the Higher power awards.

 

[Show-MeChins]

i agree Dan... with the show stings ... i mean At burlington we had ..i think... about 150 stds and 150 mutes... with a 15 animal string. if say only 5 animals.... that knocks it down to what ...we had what 8 exhibitors and not everyone showed both shows... but IF they dad thats 40 animals per show... WHAT IS THAT??? the 300 animals for both the shows BARELY covers costs NOW!! The National show has LOST money in the past... we would be lucky to be able to hold the show in a cardboard BOX!!

 

[mishalaa]

I think people are misunderstanding top 5.... It's not a cap, you don't bring just 5. You can bring however many you want, up to 20 per section. It's just that when the scoring is done, only the five that placed the highest are counted for the award. So if you bring 20 - and say 5 of them did better than a first, those points are added up. The ones that took firsts and on down, you still get the ribbons but those points aren't added into the breeders points for the awards. This is for MCBA - I know very little about how ECBC works or is faring.

 

[shuboyje]

You seem to be misunderstanding this. Nobody is suggesting show string be limited to 5 animals. What is being talked about is a very specific situation at MCBA shows only for color section breeders awards which already are awarded based on a string of 5 or more. The whole basis of average of the top five over a straight average is to not penalize someone for bringing their string of 20 as they always do while still allowing smaller breeders to compete on an even playing field. Although I do agree that it will rarely ever effect the top awards, and the same people will still win the majority of the time, I do feel it matters that they are winning in a fair fight. Now if many people feel larger ranchers will stop bringing their full string and only bring the 5 needed to win we should just drop this now, because that is the last thing the show system needs, and as already stated is one of the main reasons why a straight average would be a bad thing.

 

[mishalaa]

Missed my edit time, wanted to add:

Dan's right, it probably wouldn't make much of a difference for the first place breeders in each section, such as Shoots and his blacks, but it might mean the difference between 2nd and 3rd for smaller breeders with high quality stock but who only have five blacks born a year. The way it's currently done, they'd be creamed by large breeders who maybe have iffy stock but are capable of bringing 20 blacks, so why bother bringing all five if say one of them is a bit old and one is on the small side? But... if the points for the large breeder's 15 lower scoring blacks just go away, and it's their top 5 against all the small breeder's five, it suddenly becomes a more reachable goal and why not bring those other two along?