Number of females in herd

[designer chins]

Until I have more space, I am going to have a narrow spectrum because I'll never have 20 to show at one time... <sigh>

(daydreams of Sugar Daddy to finance acreage, chinchilla barn, etc...) :laughitup:

 

[shuboyje]

20 animals from a herd of 500+ females is a better spectrum then 5 animals from a herd of 30 females? Sorry, I don't see any logic to that, and the future seems to be more on the 30 female side. Just to clarify, I do not mean average of top 5 for Master Breeders awards, I mean for section breeder awards at an MCBA show which currently require a minimum of 5 and are scored on a point total. Master breeder would need a bigger sample of multiple mutations...maybe 15 from 3 colors, but that is just a random idea off the top of my head.

Wendy,
When you have 20 animals you get a wider spectrum of what kind of quality a person is breeding.

 

[Chinmandan]

There are several young ranchers out this way that are growing herd considerably bigger than 30 females. I can think of four ranchers out this way that are growing their herds out to more than 100 females. I guess it just depends on how hard you want to work....

Just because there are plenty of old timers getting out doesn't mean we can't recruit replacements. We have both the Pet and the Pelt market so long as we maintain the organizational infrastructure theres no reason that we cant maintain whats been going on the last 20 years.

You dont need 500 females to make a string of 20. When Bradfords were winning the National they had 112 and for the last few years Vin Somavia has had somewhere between 100-140 and he's always been on top.

When were talking about Breeder awards theres no reason to reduce it. Those that are content to show off quality in 2 or 4 animals thats why we we have Grand Show and Reserve and at Heartland Shows we have 3rd Best of Show/Class.

 

[designer chins]

I guess it just depends on how hard you want to work....

HEY! Watch it: I'll work my butt off--have no problem with work!! Right now there is nothing I can do about size constraints, and I won't sacrifice air quality to stuff more chins in to the space I have. That would be counter productive!

 

[shuboyje]

Dan,

I agree it can and has been done with less. But that does not negate the comment that 20 animals gives a better spectrum, which it does not in all cases. Although there have been many great ranchers over the years with small herds, there have also been, and still are, many with herds of 500+ females playing under the same rules, and it does not provide the same spectrum in those situations.

I certainly hope you are correct when you say the "replacements" so to speak are out there. When I get to the point in my life I am ready to ramp back up, I hope there are plenty of others around. And just an FYI, my unit was built with 120 females in mind, so this was not meant to be totally self serving, given time and 120 females I would like to think I could compete under the current rules, but I have competed under the current rules in the past with a smaller herd and struggled to bring 5 animals to nationals out of 15 breeding females, and had those five animals place high and carry a great average only to be outscored by ranchers with herds 10x my size and 20 animals that carried a second place average. And that type of situation was the EXACT reason the MCBA master breeder award was switched to a average years ago, so why not the same for the section awards? Having 20 animals to show doesn't make someone a great breeder....except in the current show system, ROFL.

 

[Spoof]

Right now there is nothing I can do about size constraints, and I won't sacrifice air quality to stuff more chins in to the space I have. That would be counter productive!

Agreed, this is why I'm restricted to 15 females at the moment. To really compete I'd need to move back north, where a/c and air filtration costs wouldn't eat me alive.

The five animal average is an interesting suggestion.

 

[TBFchins]

I agree Dan, There is no reason to change the way breeder awards are currently done.Different things to complete for a breeder award and for the top awards for single chins.
To get a breeders award you should have to produce not only quality but consistant quality. For those that want to compete for another award based on fewer animals, Why not bring back the best matched 5?
It would be one way for those who don't have a huge herd a chance to compete for another award.
It would also encourage breeders to breed to a specific type ,wich I think would be benificial to the overall quality of chinchilla's.

 

[designer chins]

Best matched 5 sounds interesting!!

 

[Riven]

Averages work best with larger numbers, that is why they use them.

Say you produce 150 kits in one year, but you only bring your best 5, they all get first. You got 100% first place animals this year!

Say you bring 20, you get your 5 firsts, 10 seconds, 3 thirds and a disqualification... that changes your percentage to 25% 1st place animals this year... not as exciting huh. It doesn't change the fact that you have a lot less quality coming out of your herd, but it sure sounds better when you have the 100%.

I am going to have to agree with Luke on this one. It would be similar to saying that school X has 100 students, and on average they are at 60 percent of where they should be in reading on a national level, but if you only take the top 5, that could put them at the 100% mark of reading levels, not giving an accurate view of what's really going on.

If we drop the standards too low, what do we have to reach for?

And I've never counted, but I'm 99% sure that Millers were running about 200 females, lol. I've got about 65 and I know they are much more than twice what I have.

As far as large ranchers, if someone wants to fund me, I have the room to build. I just need a building and cages, I'll fill in the rest!

 

[designer chins]

if someone wants to fund me, I have the room to build. I just need a building and cages, I'll fill in the rest!

I like this funding idea! If anyone wants to fund me, I'll find a larger property, build a great new building & cages, and fill it!! :thumbsup:

 

[Riven]

HEY! You'll have to get in line!

I did want to mention that I don't disagree with what Dan is kind of saying ( I think ) basically make competition less daunting for smaller breeders. Evenw ith changing the points systems for say ECBC you'd have to go through the board. Perhaps the answer is not in changing it to top five, but having different classes of breeders, even just two different classes. Say over X breeder and under. Class 1 breeder might be over 500 animals, class 2 would be under 500. This would allow people to compete against others in their "range". But even so there are many small breeders who've wiped up the big boys with no problems. I know personally my problem normally isn't getting enough to show, it's holding and growing that many. I believe I was around 300 kits last year? 250, I'd have to look. This year is a much slower year due to feed problems at the end of last year. With 300 kits per yer, that's about 25-ish a month, easily enough to take two months of kits grow out and pick out a show string, as long as you're producing quality ( you'll always have your lessers that just don't make the cut but I'm speaking from a strictly numbers stand point in a perfect world )

 

[Sycamore Chins]

Riven, I think Dan is saying keep the 20 animals rule and Jeff is saying take it down to 5 for master breeder.

As a teeny tiny breeder I'd have to root for the average of 5 for section breeder awards. That I might be able to squeeze out of my 7-10 females. As for the 5 for Master breeder I think that is much too small as well. I've accepted the fact that I won't be able to compete for Master Breeder award for many, many years, but it is a standard that gives me a goal in the future - I think lowering that standard would make it much less of a big deal.

The "class 1" "class 2" concept is quite intriguing but we also have to think of the poor ribbons table and how much more work we're asking of them - is there an easy way to do this?

 

[designer chins]

Master Breeder is such a prestigious award, I think it needs to remain a lofty goal organized the way it is.

I, too, am intrigued by other options to encourage more participation/competition between smaller breeders, but would not want to further burden the awards table!

 

[shuboyje]

I though I clarified this a few posts back, but just to be sure. The MCBA master breeders award is already on an average, and 5 animals would not be enough for that. In an MCBA show section breeder awards require a minimum of 5 animals in one section and a maximum of 20 with the awards given on point total. If 5 animals is enough to award a breeders award on, and in many mutes(ebs, violets, etc.) strings of 5 animals win this award all the time, why not tweak it so it cannot be won of volume of animals alone.

Riven, I think Dan is saying keep the 20 animals rule and Jeff is saying take it down to 5 for master breeder.

As a teeny tiny breeder I'd have to root for the average of 5 for section breeder awards. That I might be able to squeeze out of my 7-10 females. As for the 5 for Master breeder I think that is much too small as well. I've accepted the fact that I won't be able to compete for Master Breeder award for many, many years, but it is a standard that gives me a goal in the future - I think lowering that standard would make it much less of a big deal.

The "class 1" "class 2" concept is quite intriguing but we also have to think of the poor ribbons table and how much more work we're asking of them - is there an easy way to do this?

 

[Sycamore Chins]

Gotcha, so keep master breeder award where it is and fiddle with the section breeder awards?

 

[Chinmandan]

Wendy, I cant find where I say that you dont work hard....... Oh, because I didnt say that !

Just for the record theres a large rancher who always does well that would just love the idea of doing the sections on an averages. He also wants Empress to change their Breeders Award competitions to an competition of Averages. It will not work out in favor of the smaller rancher if we do averages! Also it will most definately not work in favor of the Industry, if we reduce down the number of entries an exhibitor can show.

This is why Im committed to the 3rd Best of Class. That way at Empress Shows no one rancher can shut out any classes and you still have the equilibrium among any ranchers entry distribution.

 

[designer chins]

Wendy, I cant find where I say that you dont work hard....... Oh, because I didnt say that !


This is why Im committed to the 3rd Best of Class. That way at Empress Shows no one rancher can shut out any classes and you still have the equilibrium among any ranchers entry distribution.

I was quoting your general statement, not aimed at me specifically but I had to jack you up anyway. I know how you enjoy stirring up controversy! :neener:

What do you mean no one rancher can shut out any classes? At Nationals & other ECBC shows in mutes ranchers swept Class champ, reserve, and third best of class so that can't be what you are referring to. Unless you are referring only to standards?

 

[Riven]

What Dan is saying is with third best, there is no way one rancher can take all the top awards for that class. This is pertaining to the 10 class show schedule. With 20 animals they would only have two animals that cage numbers end is any digit, meaning there would always be one other rancher in the top three because they would not have three animals in any one class.

 

[designer chins]

What Dan is saying is with third best, there is no way one rancher can take all the top awards for that class. This is pertaining to the 10 class show schedule. With 20 animals they would only have two animals that cage numbers end is any digit, meaning there would always be one other rancher in the top three because they would not have three animals in any one class.

I knew that was the implication, but wanted to clarify since in the mutes its possible for one rancher to take all three. At Nationals Vin had all 3 champ whites & all 3 champ Blacks; I had all 3 champ ebs.

 

[Riven]

Yea, mutes are more of a free for all, but if we could get 100 of each color we could totally do a 10 class! LOL