Those curly and angora chinchillas will eventually become more widely known and more 'common' as there will be more available. How can we ensure that they are bred in order to improve them if there are no standards? How to make sure the breeders who work with them work in the right direction if there is no 'judging' on them? Might as well stop breeding them, you know what I mean? I know there will never be a place for them on the fur market, of course. But eventually, it wouldn't be a bad idea to create a standard for them and judge them also to make sure that 'mutation' does not get out of hand.
New Curly Fur Mutation by Ritterspach?
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I suspect you've never been to a show for the other small animal species or you'd know your statement couldn't be more false. The hamster shows are probably the least formal of the bunch, but all of those small animal groups judge their animals to long-standing standards that have been developed over decades. The other species you've listed don't grade primarily on friendliness (except in pet-specific classes and not standards classes). They have standards that are as strict as chinchilla standards, and the judging is just as strict and on even more traits than chinchillas are judged on.
You will see differences. In chinchillas, it's all about the pelt. The fact that there is a living, breathing animal under that pelt is basically irrelevant. The other species not only acknowledge there is a living, breathing animal under that pelt, but they celebrate that fact and cherish them as companion animals. And yes, because an animal has to be handled to be judged, an animal must be handle-able otherwise it's impossible to judge and will be disqualified. That doesn't mean the friendliest animal will win unless you're talking a Best Pet or other similar class. And at least at our shows, friendliest in less than 10% of the total score, so your statement that it's all friendliness and no looks couldn't be more wrong. And it's not just looks. We handle the animals to better judge the other traits listed in the standards. Chins focus solely on the pelt although there are certainly elements of color, markings, type, etc.
I'd strongly encourage you to go to an AFRMA show. ( http://www.afrma.org/ ) Most are in Riverside which is near you. I haven't been to one of their shows in years, but they're equally as serious about their animals and their show standards as chin breeders are about their chins and their show standards. I think you even have a couple of rats and might pick up some ideas from the experts (as well as top quality food and supplies far superior to anything in the pet stores). I can see they're now combining standards and pet classes in the same day (something they didn't used to do), so you'll see both sides of the fence.
I know at the shows I attend, the greatest achievement an animal can get is winning both Best in Show (Grand Show Champion) and Best Pet. To have one that's excellent in the standards but also an excellent companion animal is the best of both worlds.
I'd also encourage you to benchmark their shows. I've only been to two California shows (three days worth of showing), but I don't think any day has started within two hours of the announced start time. I'm told that's not new this year but has been a chronic problem -- and this is without a lot of chins entered. Even the pizza dinner at the State Show was and hour and a half or so late. The AFRMA shows obviously have different processes and don't have multi-day shows, but perhaps you can gain some hints for improving the California shows. I know we've benchmarked their shows, shows in England, and shows back east and tried to take the best of all to create shows that work for us. We might as well all learn from each other.
With declining entries, less participation by ranchers like the Bowen's, and financial concerns, learning from other small animal groups in spite of their differences would seem to be a smart way to go. Just a suggestion...
Linda
I've been to many guinea pig shows in my day, as I was a huge cavy lover growing up and while I didn't breed/show animals at that point in my life I still enjoyed the show.
Cavies are judge just like chins. Obviously not to a pelt market standard, however they ARE Judged to a standard. Body shape, coat quality, color quality, patterns. You want a Himi that looks like a himi. You need a coronet that has the proper rosette on it's head, with the proper laying of fur. A Peruvian that holds up to it's breed standard. And Abyssinian(spelling?) that has the proper number of rosettes, in the correct places. You want a Tortoise Shell and White that has a proper pattern.
Cavy shows are not a "joke" just because they aren't chin shows. They were developed, and are bred to a standard. Breeders compete and show their animals just like we do as chinchilla owners. Perhaps personality IS something that is needed in different species shows HOWEVER these animals are considered more of a pet animal. Chinchillas purpose until recently was to be used as a pelt. As the pelt industry dies, and we see more pet people joining the crowd- things are going to change. Our old ranchers won't live forever. If there is no change, we cannot grow and develop. SOMETIMES small changes are good. I don't think it's a bad thing to give the pet owners, small breeders etc a chance to join in on the shows.
Cavies are judge just like chins. Obviously not to a pelt market standard, however they ARE Judged to a standard. Body shape, coat quality, color quality, patterns. You want a Himi that looks like a himi. You need a coronet that has the proper rosette on it's head, with the proper laying of fur. A Peruvian that holds up to it's breed standard. And Abyssinian(spelling?) that has the proper number of rosettes, in the correct places. You want a Tortoise Shell and White that has a proper pattern.
Cavy shows are not a "joke" just because they aren't chin shows. They were developed, and are bred to a standard. Breeders compete and show their animals just like we do as chinchilla owners. Perhaps personality IS something that is needed in different species shows HOWEVER these animals are considered more of a pet animal. Chinchillas purpose until recently was to be used as a pelt. As the pelt industry dies, and we see more pet people joining the crowd- things are going to change. Our old ranchers won't live forever. If there is no change, we cannot grow and develop. SOMETIMES small changes are good. I don't think it's a bad thing to give the pet owners, small breeders etc a chance to join in on the shows.
Most of the shows out this way have baby derbies. They are fun and don't do anything to harm the standards we strive for on the show table. They are done to give people an opportunity to show off their babies, and give them a chance to judge for cuteness. It really has nothing to do with being a good pet because they are also in show cages (they are usually removed as soon as they are "judged"). People enjoy seeing the babies and the sponsoring chapter makes a few dollars. The winner(s) receive a small trophy.
After the baby derby is done, we get down to the serious part of the day.
After the baby derby is done, we get down to the serious part of the day.
mishalaa
Irish Chinchilla
Baby derbies are also there to keep people from putting kits in the show. This happened once at York, where the kits were put back in with their mom right after the show was over. We try to police unweaned kits from being put in the derby, too, but even a four month old has no business being in the show.
I don't mind baby derbies and raffles and vendor tables and other "pet" things being at MCBA shows - it not only raises money but encourages pet people to become involved and hopefully learn something from a credible source rather than believing harmful information they got from who knows what website. Just because we have these things at MCBA shows does not mean the show itself is any less critical - differences in judges' personal preferences notwithstanding.
I don't want to see the standards change. I don't want to see exceptions made to allow angoras, dwarves, and curlies compete against the rest of the chins. I worry that if a third, completely pet-oriented organization such as the Chinchilla Club starts putting on their own shows, the standards by which we currently judge will be thrown out the window (just because it's based on that "great evil" practice of pelting) so that backyard breeding will be encouraged and quality will suffer greatly. England's organization doesn't seem to have this problem and I can only hope, if we do allow the rare mutations and other varieties to be judged, we follow their example.
P.S. I've been to rat shows and I think they're a joke. Not only are there multiple organizations that each have different standards for showing - so I had no idea what to breed for - but they are more concerned with how perfect markings are than anything else. I've heard the same about rabbit shows. In an animal whose only purpose is to be a companion animal, how does an unbroken, 1-inch wide hood make it better at that job? Same for the number of spots on an English spot? At least both chinchilla organizations have the same set of standards so everyone is breeding for the same qualities, and those qualities aren't arbitrarily assigned.
I don't mind baby derbies and raffles and vendor tables and other "pet" things being at MCBA shows - it not only raises money but encourages pet people to become involved and hopefully learn something from a credible source rather than believing harmful information they got from who knows what website. Just because we have these things at MCBA shows does not mean the show itself is any less critical - differences in judges' personal preferences notwithstanding.
I don't want to see the standards change. I don't want to see exceptions made to allow angoras, dwarves, and curlies compete against the rest of the chins. I worry that if a third, completely pet-oriented organization such as the Chinchilla Club starts putting on their own shows, the standards by which we currently judge will be thrown out the window (just because it's based on that "great evil" practice of pelting) so that backyard breeding will be encouraged and quality will suffer greatly. England's organization doesn't seem to have this problem and I can only hope, if we do allow the rare mutations and other varieties to be judged, we follow their example.
P.S. I've been to rat shows and I think they're a joke. Not only are there multiple organizations that each have different standards for showing - so I had no idea what to breed for - but they are more concerned with how perfect markings are than anything else. I've heard the same about rabbit shows. In an animal whose only purpose is to be a companion animal, how does an unbroken, 1-inch wide hood make it better at that job? Same for the number of spots on an English spot? At least both chinchilla organizations have the same set of standards so everyone is breeding for the same qualities, and those qualities aren't arbitrarily assigned.
K
KristinC1983
Guest
The skin...
I've read that when a chin gets bored, it may start pulling out its hair, and this could increase its chances of getting a cold, skin irritations, etc. So, wouldn't that mean the same for curly-haired chins if their skin shows, and I can see it's skin a little, too! It lookss interesting, maybe cute, but the risks...Why do they have to try to improve on perfection? Their coat is gorgeous and perfect in my opinion! SOunds like a sales pitch to sell chins at higher prices, make them seem uniques, but you'd have to be even more careful with drafts and skin problems. Doesn't seem worth it to me! I'm not interested in having a unique looking chin-I'm much, much more interested in having a funny little, healthy, hyper, sweet guy like my baby! His fur is perfect. Am I really one to talk, though?! He's a mutation color-violet-but I don't believe color effects their health! And my main thought when I first saw his pic online was how adorable he was-then how pretty his color was. I fell in love with him before I ever actually saw him in person. When I went to pick him up, I just wanted to make sure he was healthy and surprisingly, he didn't even bark at me when I pet him before we left the breeder.
I don't really agree with the curly-haired chins!
I've read that when a chin gets bored, it may start pulling out its hair, and this could increase its chances of getting a cold, skin irritations, etc. So, wouldn't that mean the same for curly-haired chins if their skin shows, and I can see it's skin a little, too! It lookss interesting, maybe cute, but the risks...Why do they have to try to improve on perfection? Their coat is gorgeous and perfect in my opinion! SOunds like a sales pitch to sell chins at higher prices, make them seem uniques, but you'd have to be even more careful with drafts and skin problems. Doesn't seem worth it to me! I'm not interested in having a unique looking chin-I'm much, much more interested in having a funny little, healthy, hyper, sweet guy like my baby! His fur is perfect. Am I really one to talk, though?! He's a mutation color-violet-but I don't believe color effects their health! And my main thought when I first saw his pic online was how adorable he was-then how pretty his color was. I fell in love with him before I ever actually saw him in person. When I went to pick him up, I just wanted to make sure he was healthy and surprisingly, he didn't even bark at me when I pet him before we left the breeder.
I don't really agree with the curly-haired chins!
Riven
Bad Chin
You know that the curly haired chins, are right were the violets once were, and the whites, and the beiges, they were all new and different. And most of them still don't have a place in the pelt market.
I do not have a problem with baby derbies and I think that saying that they are corrupting shows is ridiculous. More and more of the larger breeders are selling out or retiring. I am very concerned about what is going to happen to the chin market, especially for pelting ( it will totally move into South America no doubt ), but mostly quality. I truly don't think that many people hold chins, pets, fur, shows, everything involved at all to the revered status they had once, and should still have. Chins has always been a sign of wealth and status. Even when it was in it's hay day of breeding pairs were thousands of dollars, which was much more then, than it's worth today.
The reason I don't have a problem with baby derbies is that who will go to shows and maintain quality when the big ranchers are gone? It will be the smaller breeders who may only have twenty animals. If I had the building and the money, I would not at this time have a ton more animals than I have now, if I could house 1000 animals right now, I would not, because my quality on my standards is not where it needs to be for me to be running that many animals. So unless I could also afford to go out and buy hundreds more quality animals, it would not be helping anything.
Who here that is a breeder did not start as a pet owner? Baby derbies are a good way to get pet owners involved, and also educate them.
I do not have a problem with baby derbies and I think that saying that they are corrupting shows is ridiculous. More and more of the larger breeders are selling out or retiring. I am very concerned about what is going to happen to the chin market, especially for pelting ( it will totally move into South America no doubt ), but mostly quality. I truly don't think that many people hold chins, pets, fur, shows, everything involved at all to the revered status they had once, and should still have. Chins has always been a sign of wealth and status. Even when it was in it's hay day of breeding pairs were thousands of dollars, which was much more then, than it's worth today.
The reason I don't have a problem with baby derbies is that who will go to shows and maintain quality when the big ranchers are gone? It will be the smaller breeders who may only have twenty animals. If I had the building and the money, I would not at this time have a ton more animals than I have now, if I could house 1000 animals right now, I would not, because my quality on my standards is not where it needs to be for me to be running that many animals. So unless I could also afford to go out and buy hundreds more quality animals, it would not be helping anything.
Who here that is a breeder did not start as a pet owner? Baby derbies are a good way to get pet owners involved, and also educate them.
ticklechin
Well-known member
I still think they are just "EWWW".
Ronda
Well-known member
The violet I had was very big and blocky. He was bred by Carole Kessler and when I found out that the curly was genetic and not a good trait in pelt animals I sold him as a pet. A couple of years after selling him I was wishing him back as I had not seen a violet as nice as he was in a long time (bar the curl which was beautiful). I believe he could have thrown some awesome babies.
Ronda
jamanalo
MCBA Member
The best quote all day. I agree 100000% on this because that how we all started. Pet owners and we were educated by ranchers. These ranchers taught us the ropes and now we should be teaching the "new comers" and sustaining, if not raising, the bar on quality.
3CsMommy
My babies Rock!
This is precisely my experience. I'm horrible with names, but at the baby derby table at York '09, a lady with a cherry tootsie pop picked the best baby on the table based on how solid he was, that he was "nice and blue", and all the proper terminology about judging chins that I'd never heard before. It got me interested in figuring out what the ideal chinchilla looks like and how mine compares to that standard.
Maybe educating adopters and pet-only owners is beneath some people, but I want to offer my pets the best life possible, and understanding their breeding (and thereby the possible health problems with each individual animal) is part of that. If the itty-bitty babies are a good hook for that, as long as they're not in any danger, I don't see why they shouldn't be included. The AKC, Cat Fanciers, etc. have juvenile/puppy classes for that same reason.
Chintastic!
Well-known member
I am assuming this is old news(about 2 months) but the curleys now have an official name. I guess they had a contest and Locken won. I never go to .com but did to see the goldbar auction thing mentioned in a different thread. Intresting
http://www.chinchillas.com/locken/namingcontestresults.htm
http://www.chinchillas.com/locken/namingcontestresults.htm
angels41105
Love my furry butt kids
I agree, if this mutation would get out into the main stream I think it would be miss bred by people who don't have the proper knowledge of it.
This is already happening. There are people breeding violets and sapphires (recessive) as their first breedings. Most people have ebony in their herds, but many don't understand the way ebony works, or that there are various types of ebonies mixed into our ebony we are breeding today.(dig out old MCBA articles, old articles on genetics and you can confirm that this is what is thought) How many of them are breeding their ebony to standards to try and bring out the most dominant strain, and weed out the other strains mixed in? How many people even KNOW about the mixed ebony strains?
Everyone jumps into breeding these days.How many people truely takes their time to get into the other mutations, so whats the difference if they start breeding the angoras and curlies?
ticklechin
Well-known member
You have "breaders" who don't even know colors, that is when it gets really scarey for me.
I've read through this whole topic. Some people were saying something about Jim raising the curly chins. I was wondering who that was, does he have a website? I'm more informed about rabbits when it comes to showing. I know that ear length is a judged factor for them. Do chins get judged for their ears? (sorry for the off topicness-just thought of it so I thought I'd ask)
threewingedfury
<3 BIG and Blocky <3
Jim doesn't have a website, but he is located in Jenera, OH and you can contact him through phone if you search him on google. Chins are not judged by their ears. They are judged by fur (what a pelt would look like) only. This means they could be missing half of their tail a foot and an ear and it wouldn't matter as long as it doesn't affect the pelt.
That's really sad!!!
Ash
Trouble....
Why is it sad? Some animals have accidents or attacks that render their ears torn, or a limb lost, but they can be shown just as effectively and successfully as a fully intact animal. If it were a birth defect, it's unlikely the animal would be shown and then bred, but accidents to happen. It doesn't make the animal less worthy.
