Breeding/color question.

[Pookinaround]

I am aware that many members on here are heavily involved in rescue work and to those of you who are you have my utmost respect, compassion and admiration for it. That being said I also think that those same people see more than their fair share of heartbreak, problems and the not so nice side of the chinnie world. Given that perspective I understand where your comments are coming from. However in the grand scheme of things I really don't think (at least in my situation with MY 4 unpedigreed guys) that breeding them would be detrimental to the overall world of chins. Quite the opposite actually.

 

[EMSChins]

It is not only "rescue" people here who are voicing concerns. There have been rescues, pet owners and legitimate breeders alike who have raised legitimate concerns and points but you seem to have your own opinions and don't seem to really care to listen to anyone else's. Not quite sure why you joined the forum in the first place if it wasn't to learn from experienced members. Not discounting your opinions but as you have stated yourself - you are a "newbie" and as such, I myself would at least be willing to listen to more experienced owners/breeders.

No where do I see you answering legitimate questions that have been raised nor addressing what your goals as a breeder are. If it is not to raise the overall quality of the animal then I am saddened.

 

[Stackie]

I am trying my best to do this right.

If you want to do it right, you need to portray yourself as a reputable breeder and follow reputable practices. Buying chinchillas from a second hand source that are not pedigreed and have no known genetic background with the intent to breed just because they "look beautiful" is far from doing things right, I'm sorry to tell you. As it has been stated, we have seen time and time again members come onto the forums, buy up numbers of chins within a short amount of time, throw any boy and girl together and start churning out babies. Then a couple months later we see them posting classified ads trying to get rid of everything.

If you want to do things right, you need to slow down first and foremost. Spend your time attending shows, get a mentor, ask for help. LEARN what to look for in quality, ask questions, and make yourself known in the chinchilla world. The best way to do this is attend shows and purchase from well known, reputable breeders who are breeding for all the right things. Prove that you aren't just another person who is throwing "pretty" chins together to make cute babies. Prove that your goal is to increase the amount of quality, healthy chinchillas out there. If you follow all this, you will then be respected in the chinchilla world as a breeder. If you paint a good picture of yourself and get a good name, people are going to be more likely to buy from you.

 

[Pookinaround]

So far I have been to 1 show. I have sought the advice of the reputable breeders (Ryerson, Shoots, Che) that I have been buying my animals from. From what I have learned so far I would say that Mom has good size and conformation but needs work on her belly. Gordon is blocky. Bo has size and confirmation. All do have pretty dense fur. So yes I am trying here. At some point I do plan on getting someone with more experience to eyeball them to confirm or deny my opinion but nevertheless they are definitely far above average.

 

[ChinchillasByDesign]

I'm kind of conserned that you got such a large amount of chins in a relatively short time with the intent to breed, but you are unable to tell basic colors apart. I would put the breeding on hold till you do a bit more research.

Im not saying that everyone has the same intentions as we did or has the same turn out. But when we first bought chinchillas for the intention of breeding (which was our intentions from the very beginning) we started with two chinchillas with virtually no knowledge on them. That lasted a month, we then bought out a very small breeder and our numbers grew to near 20 breeders. Some of those animals did not have pedigrees. A pedigree doesn't make an animal nice. It does give you some history on that animal, but I have seen PLENTY of animals with pedigrees that are very poor quality and yes with malo or that chew fur. We used our animals without pedigrees because we saw potential in the breeding and have won color section champions from their offspring. MANY of your larger breeders (and smaller ones like us) grow their numbers by buying other peoples small herds. With that comes animals that have been passed down two or even three times. It is a chance we take, we watch the lines closely for any problems to arise. Just because the animal has been passed down 2 times doesn't mean it was sold due to health problems. 5 years later we have a herd of over 200 starting out in a way most people frown on and I will let our show record and the health of our animals speak for itself. With that said, again, I know that not everyone else has the same results.

If you are in fact starting with nicer quality animals from ranchers you are starting out the right way. Go to shows, get a ton of advice. Become friends with a reputable FRIENDLY breeder (all to often breeders can have their nose up in the air and think all newcomers are doing it wrong) that will become your mentor. Visit ranches see how they run their breeding programs. Keep EXCELLENT records of your animals and their offspring and eliminate lines that show problems immediately. Even though you purchase animals from bigger breeders or breeders with great reputations doesn't mean that you will never see a problem in those lines, it happens, just stop that line of breeding and move on.

 

[Pookinaround]

No one asked me what my goals were before on this thread. I am more than happy to answer that. I do want to improve the overall quality of the chins I raise. For ex. I have a pair of pure standards that I like to refer to as "my powerhouse couple". Phenomenal Shoots male and spectacular Ryerson female. I intend to breed all of my mutations back to this line. They are the core of my herd. No worries though. I haven't had any kits yet but as long as I do in time for next show season I have no problem entering them and letting them prove themselves. I'd say definitely year after next I should be established enough to be producing some spectacular animals.

Thank you Nicole. By the way congrats on your GSC. I wanted to make it there that day but got sidetracked

Yours was the first down to earth and real response I have gotten on this thread and I just wanted to say I appreciate it.

 

[Megan]

Nicole,

You are right everyone does have to start somewhere. The only issue I see is if someone has access to quality animals, why put animals with questionable background into breeding? I simply suggested getting them evaluated first. As a new breeder they are still learning quality, how to judge clairty. Why not hold off on tossing them into breeding until a larger/ more experienced breeder looks at them?

I do have a small number of animals in breeding without pedigrees. Granted they were chewed and the breeder is since retired and I can't replace the pedigrees, but I can still tell you who they are from. My ebony female I can tell you she goes back to Thor/k 1000 but I can't give you animal numbers...I have some pedigrees that just list animal names, but again I have an understanding of their lines and whose stock they go back to.

 

[Pookinaround]

Oh and by the way Juanita I have met you at the show in State College. I was the one sitting with Ralph (picking his brain during the show) so yes I am seriously interested in learning to improve the overall quality of the chinchillas I raise...

 

[ChinchillasByDesign]

You are welcome, feel free to email me any time. If I do not know the answer I will point you in the direction of someone who might. My philosophy has always been: You don't have to start with the best as long as you see improvement every year.

Come to Shindig this year in Auburn, In (I will be posting information soon) It will be a great place to meet several bigger ranchers as well as a great place to learn. We will have round table time where you can ask any question you like and get a straight forward answer from someone who is very knowledgeable.

 

[Spoof]

I'm happy you are here, really happy you haven't been driven off yet, and excited to see someone else get into breeding. We are loosing breeders at a faster rate than we are gaining them.

We've all been where you are and in a few generations you'll know your lines lot better as you work with them. In reality it doesn't matter who they come from pedigreed or non, the only way you're going to know what they are and how they do is with time.

One tip - you don't want to base the core of your herd on slow or non producing animals.

Good luck! )

Edited for below;

My ebony female I can tell you she goes back to Thor/k 1000 but I can't give you animal numbers...

K1000 didn't have a pedigree or the Woods choose not to share it. I also had an animal out of that line... the infamous Ratman.

 

[ChinchillasByDesign]

Nicole,

You are right everyone does have to start somewhere. The only issue I see is if someone has access to quality animals, why put animals with questionable background into breeding? I simply suggested getting them evaluated first. As a new breeder they are still learning quality, how to judge clairty. Why not hold off on tossing them into breeding until a larger/ more experienced breeder looks at them?

I do have a small number of animals in breeding without pedigrees. Granted they were chewed and the breeder is since retired and I can't replace the pedigrees, but I can still tell you who they are from. My ebony female I can tell you she goes back to Thor/k 1000 but I can't give you animal numbers...I have some pedigrees that just list animal names, but again I have an understanding of their lines and whose stock they go back to.

And it is a good suggestion. Unfortunately, by the time the animals is older it can be quite difficult to evaluate it. For example: once very clear beautiful beige can become casty. Once an animal has been in breeding it will often times loose the luster it once had. I would also like to point again that just because an animal comes from a breeder that consistently wins Grand Show does not mean that every animal born from their barn is a great animal. I think a breeder would be lying if they said that every kit born from them is a top of the table animal or will go on to throw great show animals. And that is even if their best animals are in the pedigree. I have animals that I have absolutely no clue where they came from, as do MANY breeders, some of who will not admit it here because of the backlash they would get from it.

 

[Pookinaround]

I will do that Nicole Thanks! I have a funny feeling from what both you and Megan have said on this thread that there have been unpedigreed animals incorporated into "reputable" breeding programs more often than some may be willing to admit. I get it that this is frowned upon. Many newbies may not be as concerned with overall quality as I am so many are left with grouping them as a whole and I get that but I am my own person and don't like being stereotyped. Maybe I should start a new thread under the debate section about that topic though LOL...Who on here that considers themselves reputable has EVER bred an unpedigreed animal??? I bet it happens more than people are willing to admit...

Spoof, my skin is extremely thick so no worries about me getting chased off LOL. I have several things on my side going that I believe will help me be successful in the wonderful world of chinnies...I am a stay at home mom so time is on my side, I am not afraid to "pay up" for quality, and I like to think I have the hutzpa to be able to take the good with the bad along with the insight to know what is important and what isn't...LOL

 

[EMSChins]

Oh and by the way Juanita I have met you at the show in State College. I was the one sitting with Ralph (picking his brain during the show) so yes I am seriously interested in learning to improve the overall quality of the chinchillas I raise...

mmm....sorry ....not sure where this came from,but unfortunately, I have never had the pleasure of being able to attend the show in State College??? I think you have me confused with someone else? No matter.

I am glad to hear that you are interested in learning to improve the overall quality of the chinchillas that you raise.

 

[Pookinaround]

Oh sorry Juanita I thought you were the one sitting down the row from us. Ralph and Barbara kept raving about the blanket you made them saying how nice it was and I thought that was you. Sorry.

My hearing isn't the greatest and he was obviously talking low during the show again sorry.

 

[EMSChins]

No Problem - HOH is something I definitely understand as I wear bilateral hearing aides and Ralph is a mumbler - lol!!!

Hopefully I will get to the ACS next year - of course I don't know if they can repeat that chocolate fest two years in a row!

 

[Pookinaround]

There was definitely chocolate LOL...

 

[mishalaa]

While I know that many reputable ranchers and hobby breeders have made a few exceptions when it comes to breeding unpedigreed animals (among other hard and fast "rules" to breeding) - I worry that newbie breeders will walk away from this thread thinking that it's okay as a common practice because the big guys have done it.

The big guys are the big guys for a reason. They know how to pick out quality, they have years and years of experience, and they follow through with their offspring. They will cull when problems surface, they maintain records and within a generation or two, the offspring are fully pedigreed.

Rhonda, I do remember meeting you at the Atlantic Chapter Show and I do not doubt you have every intention of following through with your lines and bringing them to show and culling when necessary. But I worry about the lurkers out there in the vast interspace who are not members of this forum but reading this thread anyway - the ones that are now reading oh hey pedigrees aren't that important, so they will get their hands on all the rescues and rehomes they can, breed for two minutes, then release their unpedigreed herd to the next fly-by-night breader. And so goes the war.

As with absolutely anything, I believe you need to show you know the rules before you can get away with breaking them. Nobody will question what Shoots or Ritterspach has done, but as someone who hasn't even produced their first litter yet, you need to be prepared to justify your decisions as a breeder because you don't have the experience and track record that they do. But you do seem up to that task.

That all said, what has really bothered me about the mom and dad in question is that the breeder they originally came from sold opposite-sex kits to a pet owner, which makes me question how "reputable" that breeder really is. Even if Jared intended to be a breeder and this breeder was starting him out with a pair, they should not have sold him kits...

 

[Pookinaround]

Mish, I agree with you 110%. As a follow up to what you have said I want to reiterate that ALL of my other breeding animals ARE pedigreed and are from top notch breeders. I have been doing my homework FIRST and I thoroughly enjoyed going to the show in April and I plan to go to many more in the future.

Justification for my desire to breed Bo is simple. The only reason I am considering even breeding Bo is his size and confirmation which I want in my offspring. He has certain SPECIFIC traits that I want incorportated into my breeding program. His offspring will be shown. Actually this morning after some of the responses in this thread I have decided to bring him to the Shindig. And in all honesty I am going to be keeping most of my kits for a good long time until my lines are strongly established. Not to even mention the fact that he will be paired with a pedigreed female whose individual traits will also be considered so as to compliment his. So with this in mind I can in good conscience consider my actions to be in the overall best interest of chinnies...

Do I think there are people out there who may go "buck wild" and just start to throw any old thing together...I am sure there are and also those with the potential to do so as well. I do not however like stereotypes and I hope that I am considered as an individual. Not everyone who gets a lot of chins in a short amount of time should be expected to fail. I would hope that each individual is treated as exactly that. An individual. Often when new people mention a desire to breed the negativity regarding their decision expands exponentially. I don't like that happening right off the bat without them receiving genuine support and help first. If after that they turn out to be a chinnie world failure than that is on them. I lurked around on here for a while before deciding to join and I knew I'd face criticism but I joined anyway knowing I can take it. I may not do EVERYTHING 100% by the book as I am human. At the end of the day as long as I am comfortable that I made a genuine honest effort to do things for the right reasons I am ok with that.

 

[ChinchillasByDesign]

. Keep EXCELLENT records of your animals and their offspring and eliminate lines that show problems immediately.

I agree with you Mish.....but people will do what they want even if we tell them not to. That is why instead of automatically saying "don't do it" you need to tell them what COULD happen if they do. And if they then decide to go for it hope that we did our part to help educate them in the proper way to go about it. I am not talking about the "if you have kits they could be torn apart" or the "If you breed this female you could possibly end up spending thousands of dollars in vet bills" kind of advice, because trying to scare people out if it is not the answer. Too many times I have seen people be completely torn apart on here because they are considering breeding. What would have happened if that is the way we were treated, or you? I would have been shy to even ask advice again. I am so fortunate to have met and worked with Randy and Jim before even knowing about the forums otherwise we would not be breeding today, or if we would be we may be doing it wrong. We are in an industry that is dying. Instead of belittling people maybe we should be HELPING them. Grant it there are some people that ask questions knowing quite well they they will not listen to the advice because they "know what they are doing" tearing them apart isnt going to help....so why do it? Nobody wins in the end.

 

[Pookinaround]

I also forgot to mention that even though the breeder of Bo's mom and dad (who are the pair Jared originally purchased as babies) may or may not have known of his intention to breed thus possibly giving him misinformation...this shouldn't take away from the fact they are nice individual animals neverthless and I just wanted to stick up for mom and dad in this regard. Why couldn't they contribute certain quality features to their offspring regardless of where they came from. I am considering the individual animal in question nothing else...Both the newbie and the animal should be considered on a case by case basis which is what I am getting at here.