Violephire

[Spoof]

Mark, I have no idea if Rhonda's lines or the European lines carry another modifier or gene, but there is no violephire gene.

How do you know for sure?

 

[RDZCRanch]

The viophires, or at least the ones in Europe, have been bred back to violets and sapphires, successfully breeding violets and sapphires. If viophire were its own gene, then it should breed as it's own recessive and NOT breed true with sapphires AND violets. The evidence points to them being double recessives.

How long has Ronda been working with her viophires, out of curiosity? In order to have a good understanding of a mutation like this, I would expect a breeder to have at least 10-15 years experience working with and producing the mutation. Also, the breeder would have good record keeping and be able to test the theory of the animals even BEING viophires by breeding them back to sapphires and violets.

 

[KissThis]

How do you know for sure?

Because by definition violephire is a chin expressing both sapphire and violet genes. The blue diamond has been theorized to have another mutation in the mix, but since their breeders/founders don't share information very well we don't know for sure what genes make up the color. Rhonda's chins maybe sapphire + violet + ?, which would make them something other than a violephire and she could name that hybrid anything she wanted. It is just like there is no pink white gene, because pink white is an animal that expresses both white and beige. I know that everyone really really wants violephire to be a new mutation, but it is just a combination of existing colors.

 

[mark miller]

To me a mutation can be any variation of existing genes. So, both pink whites and viophires are their own mutation color in their expressed form. Regardless of your thought on that we don't know for sure that the sapphire and violet genes are both dominant recessives in the viophire. If not, then the viophire should be considered its own gene. Until someone has completed a large enough test sample to truly understand all the genes involved, what variations can occur breeding for all possibilities, none of us know for sure based on basic genetics thinking because we don't know the entire genetic make up of the viophire and all the complexities within. We are just speculating based on our experiences with recessives that we know, the violet and sapphire. The viophire could be a strain that we don't yet fully know about.

 

[KissThis]

Part of why genetics seems to confusing to lay persons in general and it seems chinchilla breeders especially is the misuse of terms and the lack of basic understanding before educating the next generation. A mutation is defined as a spontaneous modification of an existing gene that is then passed onto offspring. In chinchillas we call all non-standard colors mutations, and that is correct since they carry genetic mutations that effect the color from the standard grey wild type and are passed true to their offspring. Hybrid color is the appropriate term for colors that are made up of more than one mutation, because the hybrid colors result from multiple mutations being expressed but are not in themselves a new mutation. Ie a pink white will not produce 50% pink white offspring and 50% standard when bred to a standard, but will instead produce some standard, some beige, some white, and a few pink white. Each gene is passed onto the offspring independently and not at all effected by which other genes are passed, since they are not genetically linked. Also there is no way for a recessive gene to be dominant, it is recessive. You can say that sapphire and violet are the main colors seen in blue diamonds and related hybrid colors, but as soon as you mix dominant in there you start confusing things again. Violephire, as defined as an animal that expresses both the sapphire and the violet colors, is a well defined color that we know the genetic makeup of. Other mixtures such as the blue diamond are less well defined.

 

[Spoof]

Violephire, as defined as an animal that expresses both the sapphire and the violet colors, is a well defined color that we know the genetic makeup of.

So viophire is a term for a mutation color that nobody has ever produced out of a violet x sapphire only cross, showing together in their homozygous state?

How can it be a well defined color if nobody has ever seen one?

 

[Riven]

Okay, since there is only one person that I know of working with the "violophire" genetics at this time in the US, we can all assume we know how it works, but since there are no "test results" it's just that... and assumption.

A pink white can be created from a white and a beige, yet when it's created, it can pass it along together as a NEW combined gene. For example if you breed a white to a std you'll never get a pw. You can get a pw white from a white and a beige, both of those genes are required to create the pw gene, but once it is created it can be passed along as a new gene, show in the fact that you can breed a pw to a std and get pw. I know that you will say because it's not a recessive gene, but something changes when the pink white trait is created that doesn't follow the normal rules, how do we know that there is not a new rule created in the blue diamond genetics?

And as far as getting a "few" pink whites, that is again speculation based on numbers, not based on proof. I had a pink white male who threw me 18 pink whites out of 19 offspring. The other was a beige. He was paired with standards and a beige female. So the "few" pink whites he through were almost 95% of his offspring.

 

[mark miller]

Let's clarify, viophire or violephire(which I called it) is the name we use for what Ronda has produced. Blue Diamond is the term that is used overseas to describe what we believe to be basically the same as a viophire. The facts are that no one on here has actually been able to trace back all the lineage on either animals, but we do know for sure they have violet and sapphire in them. None of us on here can say exactly how they are produced because we haven't produced one, and those that have either aren't sure either or aren't telling. What if you have 2 standard vc/sc that you produced with your own violet and sapphire lines and you mate them together. Basic genetics tells us we have a 6.25% of producing a viophire. What if you mate a standard to a viophire, produce standard viophire carriers(which are also vc/sc) and when mated together throw 25% to 50% viophire offspring? Are you going to say it was just luck and still believe there is no viophire gene. This is an example of a real test study and until we have documented results by someone who has done this we don't really know the end results. We are all just speculating on what we believe to be true. Either way I find the viophire to be a fascinating animal. A double recessive with multiple breeding possibilities capable of producing 3 different recessive colors and all they need is a breeder that can bring quality to the animal to change many people's opinion on them. That in itself makes them very interesting to me.

 

[RDZCRanch]

Pink white is a combination of beige and white...it is not it's own gene by any stretch of the imagination. It is a combination of two genes, white and beige. Your using ONE male as a poor sample size to make generalizations about a color's genetics that are ALREADY known. I had a pink white male that threw 100% pink whites in four litters, but I would NEVER say that means pink white must be its own gene. If I had bred him longer, he easily could have given me a beige, standard or regular mosaic. ONE chinchilla is NOT an accurate sample size to make generalizations.

Mark, if viophire is its own gene, then you should not need or use violets or sapphires with them. What would be the point of a viophire/c v/c s/c? If viophire is it's own gene then someone can breed a viophire to standards and breed that offspring back to each other to produce a viophire and there would be absolutely no need for the sapphire or violet genes. Violet and sapphire do not modify other colors to make them show through in the coat.

What I'm wondering is if the violephire or whatever that Ronda has is so unique, why doesn't she come onto this thread to discuss it? She is a member of this forum just as Tara is and she is plenty intelligent enough to speak for herself and not be parroted through Tara. I want to know how many years Ronda has been breeding her violephires, what she's mated them to, and how many generations she's worked with to determine that her violephires are a unique strain. Without solid evidence, it's just speculation.

 

[ticklechin]

I was just looking for pics of these colors on the net and found this link, the violet on the left, the viophire in the middle and the blue diamond on the right, the blue diamond in this pic is really pretty!

http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=74&u=11032166

the link to the discussion

http://www.chinchillaworld.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4876&st=0

 

[Ash]

I know nothing of the mutation, don't want to ever even consider working for it. But the Blue Diamond is a very pretty color. Definitely different and better than the violephire... The violephires/viophires/whatever you want to call them do not appeal to me at all.

 

[Riven]

Actually it's believed to be just different names for the same color... But there are a lot of uncertainties surrounding it either way.


I couldn't find actual comments from the people who took the pics from what I looked at, I didn't read it it all word for word, just skimmed, but I think the problem is that people aren't getting all of the information on them from the people that are working with them before the share what they learn.

 

[Ash]

In the thread (I started reading through it) they say the Blue Diamond is a different genotype than the viophire. Now, since this is in the UK and we don't have anyone to verify this with, it could be just heresay and hot air, but regardless. I much prefer that crisper blue color to the muddy looking color.

 

[KissThis]

I have seen violephire defined on a couple of different color sites listed as a hybrid expressing both sapphire and violet without reference to Rhonda's lines specifically. To me it is also an interesting color and it is tempting to produce some just to finally settle the debate. Unfortunately I don't currently have the time or space to take on this project in addition to trying to improve sapphires.

Pink whites can be homozygous beige or hetero, which would increase your chances of getting a beige or pink white. Draw out the punnett square if you need clarification. Generally you need at least 100 offspring to say anything statistically relevant or show that a known gene isn't passing in the established pattern.

If anyone would like good genetics reference textbooks, at any level, let me know. Otherwise I think I am done with this discussion since it doesn't seem to be going anywhere.

 

[Ronda]

What I'm wondering is if the violephire or whatever that Ronda has is so unique, why doesn't she come onto this thread to discuss it? She is a member of this forum just as Tara is and she is plenty intelligent enough to speak for herself and not be parroted through Tara.

Thanks for calling me intelligent Tabitha, but I do like my parrot - it saves me time and time is at a premium to me. It takes me time to actively participate on forums because I don't have time to sit and read all the threads and when I do get a chance I have to think about my responses and by the time I get a response someone else has already answered most of the questions.

Every time I've opened my mouth about the viophires I get slammed for breeding 2 weak recessives together so have just kept quiet. I don't want to get into a genetic discussion due to the fact that the original chins have no genetics available. That has been repeated several times in years past and even on this thread. I have an idea of what Carole bred into these chins but not anything concrete as I didn't get pedigrees from her - another known fact.

I want to know how many years Ronda has been breeding her violephires,.

I have only been truly concentrating with the viophires for the last 3 years or so and then only as finances allowed to purchase other outcross animals to go into the line. Four years ago was the year I took my viophire to the CA ECBC show and the animal was slammed because: "Pet people are screwing up genetics and the quality of animals and don't even know what they are doing." Okay, I agree - the reason I brought the animal to show was to ask what it really was and the quality. The attitude and the animal being tossed in it's cage onto the table made me mad - mad enough to continue breeding it and I don't get mad very often. I talked with Gary after the show and asked him why she took a 4th place and he said she should only have had a 2nd place and that was due to size.

I've had the original pair since I purchased part of Carole's herd in 1994. Many of the offspring produced since then were listed as sapphires instead of viophires until Tara actually saw one and said that's not a sapphire. At that point I had never even seen a sapphire. So saying that the second standard sc/vc female that never produced viophires may not be true since all were classified as sapphires prior to the violet sc male died.

what she's mated them to, and how many generations she's worked with

I don't want to get into what I've mated them to and how many generations I've bred them. This would take way too much time and I will only spend that time with someone who is really interested in breeding/purchasing my animals.

to determine that her violephires are a unique strain. Without solid evidence, it's just speculation.

I have NEVER stated that my viophires are a unique strain, however, several known breeders have attempted this color over many years and so far have not produced them in the US. They just aren't talking. I see can why...

Ronda

 

[aznmexaggie]

If two alleles are in close proximity on a chromosome, there is a greater chance for both to be passed together during meiosis. This is one reason why we do not always get the exact % of whatever color we would expect the offspring to be. The white gene and beige gene's loci are likely fairly close together, (much closer than say the white and TOV alleles would be.) This does not mean it became a pink white gene. That chin still could throw a beige kit or a white kit. It just means that your Punnet Square probabilities are not going to be completely accurate. Alleles which are far apart will follow the Punnet percentages much more closely. With the viophire (chin homozygous for sapphire and violet alleles), sure, if the loci for these alleles are close, there is a greater chance for both to be passed. But they could still be passed to the offspring singly as well (sapphire gene passed only or violet gene passed only). It just depends on what happens with the chromosome during "crossing over" or recombination events. If they're close together, your Punnet square probabilities will be skewed towards viophire (both sapph and violet genes passed on to he offspring). They're still separate alleles though.

Of course you also have the problem of a small sample size to work with. The fewer test runs or the smaller data set you have to calculate your stats, the less stastically significant it is. So if Ronda only had 10 kits out of her standard s/c v/c pairings, that is not a big enough sample set to run accurate stats... Maybe 5 kits out of those pairings came out as "viophire" but like my luck changes quickly in Vegas, just because I win 2 out of 4 hands does not mean the rest of the night I will continue winning 50% of my hands.
If she has produced 100 kits out of s/c v/c pairings, the results would be more reliable.

ETA: the joys of posting using a phone...

I was also going to say I'd be interested to see the results 10+ years from now, especially if the genetics are more fully understood.

 

[designer chins]

I was just looking for pics of these colors on the net and found this link, the violet on the left, the viophire in the middle and the blue diamond on the right, the blue diamond in this pic is really pretty!

http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=74&u=11032166

the link to the discussion

http://www.chinchillaworld.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4876&st=0

Thank you for sharing the link! Despite the controversy, that Blue Diamond in the picture IS a pretty color IMO. I'd love to see one in person...

 

[Brightstarchins]

I have seen a Blue Diamond in person at a show in Germany and all I can say is that the color is unbelievably gorgeous. It is a very very bright, almost blinding blue, hard to describe if you have never seen one.
Blue Diamonds do need a lot of work as far as size, conformation etc. goes, but if someone really wants to work on them and put all of their effort into it, I would be all for it.
Personally I just don`t have the cagespace to take on such a project.

Claudia

 

[Spoof]

Decent enough explanation, but what if they take a third modifier to show? What if, say it also requires an additional recessive like charcoal to be carried - that not only severely cuts down your chances, but might not show up for generations. There are a ton of recessive colors and modifiers, very few are recognized.

Found the photo of the little girl in my avatar - standard s/c and sapphire in the background. She is SO cute...

Their fur is shiny and reflects the light - hence the "Blue Diamond" moniker... or VioCharcobeigeaphire.