Violephire

[kathiva]

I know you wouldn't improve them by putting a violet and a sapphire together, you could probably improve after you get the actual viophire when you put it with pure standards and start doing some improvements there, I don't know, that's what I think, I might be wrong, I don't know everything about it yet.

 

[aznmexaggie]

You are still putting a weak mutation with another weak mutation. If you want to improve violets, you use standards or nice v/c's, not sapphires or sapphire carriers. If you want to improve sapphires, you use standards or nice s/c's, not violets or violet carriers.

Improvements in both the violet and sapphire mutations will be made SIGNIFICANTLY slower if the breeding goal is producing "viophires" or "violephires" or whatever they're called, lol.

Sure, I guess it would be fun to play around with and see if you are lucky and fall in that 6.25% chance of producing one... but I don't see why someone should invest the time into trying to breed them when the individual mutations need work themselves. Violets have come a long way but still need some work. Sapphires need LOTS of work still...

 

[kathiva]

yes, I understand, and you prove my point, that's why some people rather not breed for viophires because all of the reasons you mentioned above, I explained one reason, but you said the rest, it is time, patience, good animals, etc.

 

[Spoof]

Actually, the hardest part in breeding them is the space they take up. You guys are thinking in the short run. You've got to picture working with a double mutation in the long run. For one male with three females you're looking at around 15 cages for the first year provided the females only have three babies each. 6 females and that's 30 cages. Say you only keep the girls - that's still half the cages, then double that after a year and put them in breeding.... Yup. In two years you're taking up 60+ cages for a mutation that you've still only got a 25% chance of throwing provided you started off with a viophire and are line breeding the daughters back. In the mean time you have a whole mess of crosses that nobody wants because they're weird colored, possibly inherited crappy traits and not really good for breeding for anyone else. You could certainly sell them as pets, but most people like colors. You'd never be entirely sure of their genetics and it's just a whole pot full of mess.

You could certainly do it with less than that, but when you are working with a mutation like this it is really critical you let the ALL of the kits grow to adulthood and select your best appearing animals from that pool. That includes the males for the first generation.

And Sumiko's right - you can only have as good of animal as you have mutations. You absolutely must have access to good quality sapphire and violet outcrosses or you will be reduced to line breeding the same strain for generations. If you try to breed those yourself, add another dozen cages. It's easier to buy them, but people who breed for nice sapphires are far and few between.

 

[Whimsy]

What is the purpose of breeding a violephire? Just to get a cool unique color that nobody else has? It is not a rare mutation; it is a combination of two recessive mutations in which the animal is homozygous for both... and it's by using two relatively weak mutations at that!

I just don't get what the purpose is... you would not be improving either mutation by mixing them with one another.

Actually, it is a rare mutation. Understanding how genetics works with double recessives...how could anyone not recognize the successful outcome as being anything BUT rare? *shrug*

Besides, everyone has their own preference. Yeah, some people want the newest fad. Others like the challenge. To each his own.
Personally, I'd love to see this color in real life. And would love to see a high quality one even more. :thumbsup:

 

[Riven]

You'd never be entirely sure of their genetics and it's just a whole pot full of mess.

Maybe I lost something in here, but wouldn't you know if you breed a violet to a sapphire what you have?

 

[kathiva]

yes, but after getting the standard v/c s/c and mating those together, that is when you could probably have a pot full of mess, I think

 

[Riven]

Well you would have a 37 ish % chance of having something that you can't use, those odds are better than lottery. Basically if you were dealt a straight hand on 9 kits, one would be a blue diamond so it would be obvious. Take that blue diamond and put it back in ( we're going to pretend life is good and the BD is a male, and the rest are females ) but the BD in a run with the 8 remaining females and you have a 50% chance that a female he's with will be a "usable carrier". Is it easy to say exactly what you'll get, no. But you can put to Grand Show standards together and get something you can't use as well.

 

[aznmexaggie]

No, it's NOT a rare MUTATION in itself. Viophire is not a mutation. It is a "rare" combination of mutations. It is a multiple mutation color. Just like pink white is a combination of different mutations, different alleles. Heck, a TOV tan white violet is rare too but it's not a mutation in itself. It is a combination - a "hybrid." What makes it harder to produce is working with two recessives rather than dominant genes but it's not a mute in and of itself.
I didn't say it isn't rare. I said it isn't a rare MUTATION.

The last time we had this discussion on CnQ, some people didn't seem to understand that it was a combination of 2 recessives in which the animal is homozygous for both. That's why I said that.

I thought I posted a picture once of the "viophire" shown at our CA ECBC State Show last year. I will have to find it. The color was... interesting. But the animal was so small and weak-furred, it wasn't very nice to look at. That's just my opinion though.

 

[Spoof]

"viophire" shown at our CA ECBC State Show last year. I will have to find it. The color was... interesting. But the animal was so small and weak-furred, it wasn't very nice to look at.

That's the baby in my avatar, taken two days before the show and she was right at 4 months old.

So yes, she was very small and had baby fur. We took her to see what the judges had to say on the color. The most important part is keeping clarity - it is so easy introduce red or cloudiness you otherwise wouldn't see in a standard animal.

Riven - the mess I was referring to was the large quantity of possible or unknown carriers that this produces.

 

[aznmexaggie]

Ah, I didn't realize she was so young. I thought it was an adult animal and my thoughts on her were that although she was pretty clear, she was lacking in other qualities which many sapphires and some violets are still lacking... Like you said, it will only be as good as the mutations you are using and I feel violets and especially sapphires still have a ways to go.

 

[mark miller]

The purpose and reason for producing a viophire would be to create a breeding tool to use with both violets and sapphires. Yes the viophire itself would be some what of a novelty color because of the rarity but, entertain this thought process for a moment. What if someone like myself were to develop a true quality line of viophires that could be used as double carriers and able to improve both violets and sapphires qualities what a breeding tool you would have to work with recessives. To develop and get them to that point would take time and patience but, for a breeder with a lot of knowledge of how quality is produced it is possible. The question would be how much would such an animal be worth? To someone who doesn't breed recessives, not much. To someone working with recessives it could be worth a gold mine. Its like all colors of chinchillas, if its good quality it's worth more. What makes this thought so intriguing to me is no one has ever done it with a double recessive gene chinchilla. I guess I'll find out just how good of a breeder I am if I can be the first to produce an ECBC Grand Show Mutation Viophire that beats all the other dominant mutations in a sanctioned show. Huge challenge yes, but not out of the realm of possibilities.

 

[kathiva]

I asked maybe more than a year ago a breeder of how much they sold the blue diamonds, and they said a good quality, around $4,000 euros, and not a very good quality, around $2,000 euros, I was so curious to know, that I asked them!

 

[aznmexaggie]

I found my picture of the viophire that was shown at the CA State Show last year:

 

[mark miller]

One thing I'm a little confused on is when you have a viophire and breed it, is the offspring a triple carrier. A guaranteed carrier for the viophire, violet, and sapphire genes or just a guaranteed carrier of the viophire gene and possible carrier of the violet and sapphire genes? When you mate viophire to viophire is the offspring 50% Viophire sapphire/violet carriers and 25% Violets sapphire/viophire carriers and 25% Sapphires violet/viophire carriers. Is the viophire is a dominant recessive for both sapphire and violet? If so, then shouldn't this be true? I don't see how you could get a standard vc/sc out of a viophire to viophire breeding if it is truly a dominant recessive for both violet and sapphire genes.

 

[kathiva]

I would think that it would be the same thing as breeding violets and sapphires separate, such as when you breed a sapphire to sapphire, you get 100% sapphires, if you breed sapphires to pure standards, you get 100% standard sapphire carriers, and when you breed a sapphire to a standard sapphire carrier, you get sapphires and sapphire carriers, and the same thing for violets too.

So I would think that for viophires, if you put them with a pure standard, you would get 100% standards violet and sapphire carrier, and if you breed them with a standard s/c v/c, I think you would get 50% standards v/c s/c and 50% viophires.

I don't really think that the carriers sort of separate when you breed the viophires, since the viophire is a sapphire and a violet at the same time, I think that you get possible s/c v/c when you breed 2 standards v/c s/c, because when you do that, it is not certain if the babies will be carriers, the same thing when you breed 2 standard s/c together, you get possible sapphire carriers, standard sapphire carriers and sapphires, and the same for violets and I would think the same for viophires.

I don't know, this is what I think, correct me if I am wrong

 

[mishalaa]

Mark - Viophire is not its own mutation, it is a hybrid. There is no "viophire" gene, but rather the sapphire and violet genes being expressed simultaneously, just like a pink white expressing both beige and white. The difference is the genes in the viophire hybrid are recessive to the wild type, whereas beige and white are both dominant.

If you bred a viophire to a viophire, all offspring should be viophires. A viophire must pass both the sapphire and violet gene to all offspring as those are the only genes it has to offer. Two viophires together would pass the two genes needed to create another viophire. Breeding a viophire to a pure standard should give you all standard sc/vc.

If you are using Punnet Squares, the viophire is "ssvv", sapphire "ss" (or "ssVV") and violet "vv" (or "SSvv"). Pure standards, for the genes in question, are "SSVV". Your standard sc/vcs are "SsVv".

 

[mark miller]

Here's the part that throws a monkey wrench into the normal percentage breedings with recessives in comparison to the viophire. Ronda is the only person here in the states that I know of that has been producing viophires. She has produced all of them from one breeding line and that ine has reproduced them at a greater percentage then what we have come up with on here. The strange part is she produced several other double carriers from different lines and when bred together none of them produced viophires. She is convinced only certain types of sapphires and violets working together have the ability to throw the viophire gene. It could just be unlucky, but to have so many other lines of violets and sapphires from all different breeders that have produced double carriers for her but, when mated together don't produce a single viophire seems like more then just coincidence or bad luck. She does not know all the backgrounds of the 2 animals that threw her first viophire to know if there's any other genes present but, every one that she has produced has come from the line of those original 2 parents. Her real life experiment with them goes against our traditional genetic percentages thinking. Thus adding to the mysteries of the viophire gene.

 

[mishalaa]

That's why I said "should" in my previous post. I have no idea exactly what genetics are at play in Ronda's lines, or the European lines. I will say that from my own real life experiences with certain sapphire lines, I am beginning to suspect there are multiple strains of sapphire out there. Again, I would be very interested in looking at a fur sample to see how the pigmentation is playing out.

 

[KissThis]

Mark, I have no idea if Rhonda's lines or the European lines carry another modifier or gene, but there is no violephire gene. Their may be differences in sapphires, though so far I have had absolutely no problem crossing vastly different sapphire lines together and getting sapphires. Including some of the same lines that Rhonda got from Jack Humpreys. What I have seen a lot of are people that know very little about genetics getting really confused about what they have genetically and how often they should get certain colors out of certain pairs. Also when you have limited numbers it is hard to say anything about statistics. For instance, I have one standard sc girl that so far has produced 3 sapphires out of 4 kits when paired with the same standard sc boy. From this small sample set, it may look like something about the pair causes them to produce more sapphires than normal when in fact the sample size is too small to say anything and I will likely not get any more sapphires out of them for a while.
Mish, if you would like samples of fur from a variety of sapphires that are unrelated, let me know and I can send them to you.