Very Underweight Chin...

[Ristarwen]

First, let me apologize for starting another thread about this, but this one is a bit more specific and in a different forum.

So, my little Suki is just that...little. She's about a year old and has a larger frame than my 7-month old boys, but weighs roughly 150 grams less - only about 400, maybe a few grams more at this point. She's just so boy and it absolutely breaks my heart to snuggle her.

I'm handfeeding her Critical Care with a couple of opened acidophillis tablets and a skosh of baby oatmeal mixed in, and have done a hard switch from Oxbow (which she wasn't eating) to PANR (which she still isn't really eating). The reason I'm adding baby oatmeal is because it is almost all oats with very little to no sugar (I threw out the box...) and it should help to fatten her up, right? It is used for kit handfeeding formulas, if I'm not mistaken. Please steer me in the right direction if I'm wrong.

I've also just ordered some Lifeline and Dyne. Can anybody with more experience please give me some sort of feeding regimen I can follow for her? I know that both Dyne and Lifeline are supplements... Can I mix them together to form a paste? How much of each, and how often for this situation?

Please, if anyone can help, I'd really appreciate it!!!

 

[Rickman]

If anyone would know the correct ratios, it would be Dawnna @ chocolate chinchillas!
I've seen her herd, and say they're all between 700-900 grams, so she'd know the best combination to "fatten her up", providing it's not a thyroid problem!
E-mail her, same sight as you ordered from.

 

[saphire]

I have a chin that after he has been neutered had lost alot of weight. He was already a tiny boy but had dropped from 520 to 512g in 2 weeks. Pretty Scary.
What I have done, was mix into a thick paste 1/8 of a tsp of lifeline with 1/2tsp of Critical care every 4 hours making sure he took a minimum of 3/4 of the feed. After two week or so, he started eating pellets, and I continued to feed him every four hours but with a smaller amount or as much as he would take with a little force feeding. After a month he has gained 40 grams and is continuing to gain slowly but surely which is better than too fast. He is now eating 20 to 25 grams of Oxbow pellets and a full shot of CC and lifeline daily. (until he reaches his normal weight)
I did give him 1 ml of dyne in between feeds at the beginning, he liked it for a couple of days and than just would refuse taking it. Do I just kept on doing the CC and Lifeline.
Hope this helps a bit.
Good Luck keep us posted

 

[alli713]

I can't remember if it was posted in any of your other threads, but has this chin been to the vet to rule out any illnesses?

Is she loosing weight or just maintaining a low weight?

 

[arf2184]

First, don't go by weight and don't compare her weight to your other chins when determining if she's underweight. There's a lot more to weight than just the size of the frame. Some chins are just built denser than other. Go by what you feel. A chin that feel underweight is pretty obvious, with the spine and ribs being easily felt. Also, some chins are just naturally slimmer. Don't expect her to be a chunky brick as that may be obese for her.

I can't remember if it was posted in any of your other threads, but has this chin been to the vet to rule out any illnesses?

On this same note, has she had x-rays of her teeth taken to rule out malocclusion, tooth spurs, etc.? (sorry, haven't read the other thread.) If she's got problems with her teeth, no amount of hand feeding is going to help in the long run. You might put a little weight on her now, but until her teeth are fixed (if possible) she's not going to want to eat on her own as she's in pain.

Messing with her diet too much could do more harm than good so you're going to have to be very observant. Make sure her poop remains consistent. The acidophilus will help some with that. Keep some simethicone (baby gas drops) on hand just in case. You don't want to add bloat to the mix.

Keep her in a small cage by herself. This will help you monitor her poo better and help keep her from burning off calories by flying around a large cage.

Yes you can mix LifeLine, CC, Dyne, and whatever you wish together to form a paste. If she's not eating at all on her own, feed her as often as you can. Until she gets used to handfeeding, you're just going to have to be patient. Feed until you both start to get frustrated then take a break. Try again in an hour or two. If she is eating some on her own, you want to encourage that. Only feed 2-4 times a day, as much as she'll take and gradually back off as she starts to gain weight.

For the short term, as long as she's eating something and pooping, you should be ok with just using whatever ratio works (whatever she'll take the easiest). I wouldn't put a whole lot of the oat cereal though. While it does have good nutritional value and is not just a filler, the LifeLine and CC will help provide a more balanced diet if you end up hand feeding for a long time. When you get the Dyne, only add a few drops to a small drizzle per feeding. You don't want to overdue it.

Finding the cause of her weight loss and lack of eating would by my big concern here.

 

[addictedtochins]

Does she have a wheel, perhaps she runs too much? Maybe she is out for playtime to long? Good luck.

 

[saphire]

I have a chin that after he has been neutered had lost alot of weight. He was already a tiny boy but had dropped from 520 to 512g in 2 weeks. Pretty Scary.

edit: 512g should read 412g... not really scary losing 8 grams in 2 weeks:laughitup:

 

[Claire D]

Ristarwen can I ask why you started hand feeding your chin? I know that sounds like a straightforward question but I am wondering what made you start - new chins take a while to settle into a new environment and lack of appetite can be due to so many things. If you are simply comparing to your other chins then that may be misleading you - some chins are naturally lightweight and some are chunky.
I've read your other thread and I'm a bit concerned that you have started to get her on decent pellets instead of the "bad food" she arrived with and now you're hand feeding her. Please don't get me wrong, I do understand that you are worried about your chin (and that is right and proper) and you want her to gain weight but you've not actually had her for very long and she is trying to adjust to many things, including a change of food.
Changing a chin from a mix (which is what I gather she was on from your original post) to pellets can be challenging, especially if they have been used to eating it since weaning or for a long time - chins can be stubborn especially if they are used to having plenty of treats - they can hold out for what feels like ages.
It is possible that she is waiting for goodies and anything you give her outside of the pellets and hay is just reinforcing her eating habits.
One of the problems with tempting appetite by using sweet foods or treats is that the chin then does not want to eat their normal ration of pellets and hay - it's a bit like giving kids the option to eat sweets or vegetables.
You may have to "tough it out" and give her only pellets and hay for a while - the fact that she is actually eating pellets means that she is capable of doing so. She may just be enjoying the other soft foods you are giving her and eating them out of preference.

Some possibilities are: she may be a petite chin or she may be holding out for goodies or she may have something else going on.

Having said all of that though I agree with the Alli - you need to rule out underlying problems so I would take her to a chinchilla competent vet for a full assessment.

 

[ticklechin]

If the chin has the capability of eating, meaning its not sick or has teeth issues I would not hand feed. Chins can get addicted to CC or LL and they can hold out for it and not eat the pellets. You run the risk of overgrown teeth if you handfeed too long also. Chins are like little kids, they will take advantage of you and you cave, be tough!

 

[Ristarwen]

Ristarwen can I ask why you started hand feeding your chin?

I've had her for about two months now, and immediately switched her to Oxbow. The reason I began hand-feeding her is because she wasn't eating the Oxbow and was losing weight, and I was beginning to worry. She'd been eating only 10g a day, and after a few weeks of that I'd had enough and got some CC. I did that for a week and a half-ish, then weaned her off. She still wasn't eating, so a couple of weeks ago I started hand-feeding again and shortly thereafter switched to PANR.

...chins can be stubborn especially if they are used to having plenty of treats - they can hold out for what feels like ages.

It's been about 2 months, though, and she's still eating no more than 10 grams a day.

Some possibilities are: she may be a petite chin or she may be holding out for goodies or she may have something else going on.

I don't think so... Like I said, she's very bony. Her shoulder blades and her ribs are very prominent, and she just feels really frail.

Does she have a wheel, perhaps she runs too much? Maybe she is out for playtime to long?

She doesn't have a wheel, and my chins only get about 30-45 min a day right now for playtime (plus plenty of extra snuggles).

Make sure her poop remains consistent. The acidophilus will help some with that.

Her poop has been consistent this entire time...unfortunately, consistent means consistently small. I got her that way, because she was on a mixed food and wasn't getting any hay at her previous home.

On this same note, has she had x-rays of her teeth taken to rule out malocclusion, tooth spurs, etc.?

I have not taken her to the vet, but am planning to call tomorrow to make an appointment. She has a lot of energy, so it's hard to believe that she has any diseases or parasites, but she may have a problem with her teeth...

Keep her in a small cage by herself.

She already is by herself, as the only other chins I have are boys, and we don't want any accidents. As for her cage, it is currently a 4-level My First Home...this one, minus the ramps and wheel: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produ...Categoryimages/larger/lg-35210-46750-cage.jpg
She used to be in this cage, a 2'x2' SuperPet: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B000I1MANQ/ref=dp_image_z_0?ie=UTF8&n=284507&s=kitchen

To sum up, I really am at a loss here. She'll eat 4-6 syringes of Critical Care a day (each syringe is 14 cc's), plus 5-10 g of her pellets, and some hay. She doesn't eat nearly as much as my boys. I will be calling the vet tomorrow to make an appointment, and should be able to get her in early next week, if not late tomorrow afternoon.

 

[ticklechin]

Sounds like teeth issues to me that may have been made worse by handfeeding for a span of time, get her a full exam of the teeth under gas and a x-ray series and you may have your answer.

 

[alli713]

Not sure if it's teeth issues or not, you just want to be really careful with the handfeeding and make sure she continues to eat pellets and hay. She needs those to wear down her teeth or else you're just making the issue worse.

I hope you find out what the issue is!

 

[Ristarwen]

She has been eating some pellets and hay, just never enough to make me comfortable with her intake...

 

[Claire D]

It is a vicious circle - the more OCC you feed her, the less pellets and hay she will eat because she is full of OCC.
It's a tough line to get right: too much OCC and she is never going to increase her intake of pellets. Too little OCC and you worry that she is going to stop eating and lose weight.
The problem you have is that pellets and hay are always going to seem "boring" (anthropomorphic I know but you get my meaning) so she is not going to eat them with gusto in the first instance - that she is eating 10g means she can eat them.

TBH as I said above, if she comes from a background of eating mixes and treats (where she was before) then it is going to be tough getting her to eat "boring" pellets and hay - she may well be skinny because of the past food intake which may have been nutritionally poor but we do not know that for fact. All you can do is try to encourage her to eat normally and see if she gains weight over a period of time. Any change from an inadequate diet to pellets and hay can bring on some weight loss (like taking away sweets from a kid - they will lose weight first before starting to gain it) and weight gain can be very slow in these types of chinchillas.

Also if she is losing weight then I would cut out all exercise for now - it is more important that she gains nutrition from the food than runs it all off when she is out of her cage. Some people may disagree but you generally don't get someone who is ill to run a marathon while they are recuperating! It is the same thing with underweight or sick chins (unless they have a clinical condition in which gentle exercise may help) - once they are stable and have re-gained some weight then it is worth starting gradual exercise in a confined area (like a bathroom) for 5 minutes and build up over a period of months, constantly monitoring weight to make sure they are not running off more calories than they are taking in.

Is she showing any signs of tooth problems? Is she crumbling pellets or showing signs of wet eyes?

A vet visit is definitely in order to rule out any underlying problems including tooth root problems.

 

[Ristarwen]

She has not been showing any signs of wet eyes, but pellet crumbling, some. I think that that is mostly due to her eating a part of the pellet and then dropping the remainder back in her bowl. So it's not really crumbling, but munching, I guess...

Either way, she will be going to the vet on Wednesday afternoon (that's the soonest I could get her in), so I guess we'll have a bit of an answer then.

For now: what is the general consensus? Should I cut out CC? Reduce how much CC I'm feeding her to only morning and night?

 

[Claire D]

:hmm: Hmmm...... it is a difficult one - at the end of the day you have to do what you feel is right for your chin.

Picking up on a couple of things you have said so far:
Her poops have been small since she arrived but she was on a mix and no hay - I'd expect her droppings to be small if she is not a good hay eater - she needs a high fibre, fairly bland diet which good quality pellets and hay can provide. There's no reason why you can't give her a variety of hays to try and tempt her to eat them - the only caution I would throw in here is if you are going to give alfalfa I'd only give a smallish amount once a week - apart from the relatively high calcium to phosphorus ratio, it is eaten like a treat by many chins and you want to avoid "treat" foods for now.

She's had a lot of dietary changes - from mix to Oxbow then OCC then back to Oxbow then back to OCC and now PANR. Again, please don't misunderstand me, I totally understand your concern to get her eating but she needs a bit of stability in her diet - if there's no clinical reason for her not to eat (and the vet will hopefully answer that on Wed) then she just needs to stick it out on pellets and hay. She's not going to like it but she needs to have a stable diet for a good 3-4 months so that she can adjust.

She has been eating some pellets and hay, just never enough to make me comfortable with her intake...

I take it you're comparing her intake to your boys?
It's going to be different for all the reasons we've said in this thread already - she's a junk food addict (bless her furry paws) and she needs to get used to not eating what she wants. If she could not eat pellets or was crumbling or showing signs of other problems then I'd be more worried - I bet if you give her a hard treat she eats it pretty sharpish?

If it were me (bearing in mind I can only go on what you have written in this post ) I would be tempted to cut down the feeds drastically (or even cut them altogether) and very carefully monitor her pellet eating. With the amount of OCC you are feeding her there's no way she is going to want to eat pellets. I would not give her any treats what-so-ever and see if she is capable of eating a good diet of pellets and hay. As Ticklechin has said above, the longer a chin is on a soft diet, the more likely it is to affect the teeth - and that's a slippery slope you really don't want to be going down if you can avoid it.

I would also be tempted to add some probiotics to her diet and ask the vet for a faecal test on Wednesday.

Good luck and please keep us posted.

 

[ticklechin]

That is a hard one, without a diagnosis I think I would feed until wed, a few more days won't make a difference now if the teeth are overgrown but if nothing is found on wed I would cut back drastically on the feedings and hold firm. Chins can become critical care addicts to the point where they will refuse pellets and hold out until the owner caves.

 

[saphire]

Chins can become critical care addicts to the point where they will refuse pellets and hold out until the owner caves.

Wow, thanks for this info. I would never never have thought that this was possible.

Claire, should she not feed once a day of CC in order to keep the system going?

 

[jmdebb]

Will she eat treats?

Just asking because I'm having the same problem right now. Something went threw my chin room and I've been battling it for quite some time. Anyways, teeth had x-rays, text book teeth, did a fecal sample for quite a few things, came back negative. Was on baytril for about five days, they all started to eat, but just chin chin kept eating, back to not eating. SO i'm on my second round of baytril. Hoping since they all started to eat alittle after first round, second round will do the trick. If it doesn't next step is bloodwork, however not all infections show up in bloodwork. So that is also something else you should know if you don't already.

I was speaking with someone who had the same problems with me as I do with Noel, and her poor chin died a year later, they did blood work, x-rays...etc. And what it ended up being was a mouth infection. So i'm wondering if that is what NoNo has. She eats treats without a problem, and will even eat pellets if I hand them to her, but will not eat out of a dish, and this is not normal for Noel, or the others. It all started with her, and then spread.

So I don't know if you have the same symptons, but just wanted to let you know in case. And if it is a mouth infection it won't show up in blood work.

Jean

 

[Claire D]

Claire, should she not feed once a day of CC in order to keep the system going?

:hmm: Difficult one Saphire - The chin has been eating pellets - the difficulty is in deciding whether the chin will hold out for OCC and not eat pellets. It's a tough one for sure.

This is one of the major problems with hand feeding chins with no diagnosis - as a chin owner we know how fast they go into stasis so we're trying to avoid that at all times - but treat eating chins can be as stubborn as the proverbial mule at times. Having said that, no healthy chin will starve itself if provided with good quality pellets and hay.

Some people would continue to hand feed, others would reduce the feeds radically or stop completely and monitor pellet, hay, and water intake - opinions vary.

Ristarwen needs a full assessment and diagnosis - lets hope Wednesday provides some answers (preferably good ones!).