TOV Whites.. I Adore Thee!

[Kansas City Chinchillas]

Here is a question and I am totally clueless on this one so sorry if these questions seem silly but this is something I have always wanted to understand a bit better...Isn't the TOV element totally seperate from color itself since it can be present all across the gammit of colors? I mean I know the dark head and paws are it's trademark but it can be a tricky thing with whites especially so is the only way to tell for sure is by proving it through breeding??? (Aside from chins like Tiffany's who present the TOV element in an obvious way). Why are the whites the only ones really like this??? Is there any correllation to the TOVxTOV White/White lethal factor issue?????? TOV Whites are the only combination that have both in common....

It has nothing to do with the lethal factor. The reason is because whites can mask (hide, negate) tov veiling.

 

[threewingedfury]

I agree with Cathy.. whites are the only mutation that are spotty which is why you see it in TOV Whites and not in TOV beiges, blacks, etc. It's the white mutation itself that's concealing the veiling, shouldn't have anything to do with the lethal factor.

Here is another unrelated TOV White, Andromeda. It took her a few litters to prove she was TOV, she finally threw a black velvet after her 5th or 6th litter.

One of her kits:

All of these animals are out of TOV White x Standard Gray pairings.

 

[Kylelemler]

Would it be currect to say the the TOV gene takes the color of the chin and darkens it in the specific areas it is know to darken (down the back, through the head, and paw areas). Now with white there is no color to darken unless there is a spoted area for it to show up in. Just an idea.

 

[Spoof]

I'm a bit confused by your post, but I'll post my experience and what I've learned.

In talking with Bob Gunning extensively the Tov veiling was an accumulative that he bred darker over several decades. He did cross Tov x Tov animals but they were extremely slow producers. That still holds true today.

In all of his years developing it he never ran across a homozygous animal, and to my knowledge neither has anyone else.

Breeding Tov to Tov is still done but it is a looooong wait for babies. I have never heard of it being detrimental to the female. So breeding a Tov to to a possible Tov white won't do anything but slow production.

White is a different critter. I don't know any rancher that has done it with a dominant white which is understandable, most don't pelt whites anyhow. I knew several hobby breeders that did it back in the day and a few that have contacted me recently wanting stock that do this. They tend to lose the females to unexplainable deaths between 2-4 years of age. They never seem to think this is odd. They do seem to have more babies than the Tov x Tov pairings.

No concrete science for you sorry.

Here is my most recent little girl! I do a lot of Tov x ebony white breeding but this is the first one I've had where there is no ebony in the lines that I'm aware of. )

 

[threewingedfury]

I think what Kyle is theorizing is that white is the absence of color, so the mutation placed with it would create the coloring itself. I guess that makes sense, because in white to standard pairings, the darker the standard you use, the darker the tip you normally end up with on your white offspring. Almost of my white offspring end up with dark guard hairs because I use dark to extra dark standards. Even with my only predominate white female, her male is a dark standard and she produces heavily spotted and dark guard haired whites. So, it would only make sense that the TOV gene itself is creating the color, not the white itself, theoretically.

 

[Dreamlite]

That also depends on how darkly veiled the BV is. If its a light it may not cause any color shading. The same with homo ebony hiding veiling. It doesn't always have to express in color, just in where the color shows.

 

[Spoof]

I think what Kyle is theorizing is that white is the absence of color, so the mutation placed with it would create the coloring itself.

I was confused by Pookin's question. Kyle posted at the same time I was composing. My bad for not quoting there.

I believe the strain of white determines how much shows through. In my experience the darkness of the standard, beige, ebony, violet, etc has not made a difference. When my most extremely marked line does throw a standard the offspring have little or no veiling. Doesn't matter what they are crossed into, there is a higher prevalence of unique markings.

Ronda had a male that threw pure white babies with everything. It didn't matter how light, dark, Tov or ebony the female was every white baby came out white. I think on the longevity thread I'd figured he had 47 babies in his lifetime.

I have two of his pure white daughters, going to do some experimenting with them myself.

I like to think chinchilla white acts more like white on horses, they all come out spotted one way or another and certain lines like a medicine hat will throw that pattern more often than not. If you breed a line long enough you do notice that they throw patterns.

white is the absence of color, so the mutation placed with it would create the coloring itself.

This is actually how Sapphire appears to work. If you have access to a microscope and a sapphire check out the fur. A real pale blue sapphire is clear like a white. If it is carrying another color the fur is clear but there are pigment leakage blobs all over. I've also noticed the darker the standard used the more leakage blobs you get, and the less blue the sapphire. Get sapphire on a dominant color Beige/Violet/whatever and it looks like some crazed psychopath was laying railroad tracks. (Regular standard fur looks like railroad tracks).

I have a sapphire in breeding with one of those pure whites. I want to see if those color leakage blobs are from sapphire existing as a broken down structure or if that pigment leaking through is what causes the odd shapes. I know, weird stuff going down in this barn.

 

[Pookinaround]

Spoof, what I am confused about is that Whites are the only color where identifying if TOV is present can be tricky...I wonder what causes that??? Since both white and TOV are both connected to the lethal factor I wondered if maybe somehow genetically that didn't have anything to do with it..? Just found it a bit ironic because TOV whites are the only ones like that.

 

[Spoof]

Spoof, what I am confused about is that Whites are the only color where identifying if TOV is present can be tricky...I wonder what causes that??? Since both white and TOV are both connected to the lethal factor I wondered if maybe somehow genetically that didn't have anything to do with it..? Just found it a bit ironic because TOV whites are the only ones like that.

I can kind of see where you are coming from. There is no "the" lethal factor, it's just a commonly accepted theory that both types have "a" lethal factor. BV's may not have one, it may just be that you are putting two slow breeders together resulting in extra slow production.

ID'ing Tov on a pale homo beige, dark ebony or any sort of wrap is just as tricky. It was originally called velvet because it changed the texture of the fur to short and velvety. That has long since been bred out, but it does still effect how the fur reflects light. You'll get really good at spotting Tov by the appearance and texture of the fur after awhile. Also on homo ebony babies it will come in at a different rate than the rest of the ebony fur. Sometimes they end up with a red diamond in the center of their forehead that fills in pure black as the veil comes in.

 

[Vyxxin]

Identifying it is not an issue with the animal, it's an issue with the breeder. It's because all the other "colors" are darekend by the TOV through the back and face...how do you do that with a dominant color of white? Not all white lines have much pattern/darkness to them as mentioned. There has to be something THERE to darken

And an FYI- Andromeda, at the top of this page...was exactly what I was talking about w/the black spots...that really isn't common to ordinary mosaics/whites. It's MORE common to crosses such as TOV white and ebony whites.

 

[Pookinaround]

it may just be that you are putting two slow breeders together resulting in extra slow production.

Spoof, Shelbey did breed with a standard and threw 2 mosaics and 2 standards. Ralph said she is not a TOV white but she does have a BV parent. Others were suggesting not to be too hasty in determining that she is not TOV that it can take several litters to prove. My intention is to try her with a BV next time to see what happens.

 

[Vyxxin]

Yes, but what would placing her with a black velvet prove? That the sire is definitely a bv? You'd already have known that.

And yes, it can take many many years to prove if it ever proves and that's NOT just a white thing. I've personally and, and have heard of BIG breeders having, a black velvet in breeding with standards...whole lines of standards...obvious BV...all they (and I) ever got were gray kits. It's poor luck but doesn't mean the animal wasn't a black velvet.

And that's on an animal that is OBVIOUS for TOV. On an animal such as a white that isn't...well...

 

[Pookinaround]

I am not trying to prove if she is TOV or not I am trying to get kits that look more like her...That's all no more no less... (I have a thing for polka dotted chins...lol)

 

[Dreamlite]

Breeding her to a black velvet won't encourage that coloring any more than any other mute cross. She will either throw it or she won't. Crossing to a velvet just means IF she throws it that it will show acrossed her back instead of elsewhere. So you aren't. Increasing your chances at all.

 

[Pookinaround]

At least if I do breed her back to a BV then I may also get TOV whites so no harm no foul. I think it would be interesting to see what she throws when paired with one...no biggie...

 

[Vyxxin]

Well, to each his own and most DO believe that patterns are possibly inherited from the white parent while darkness or lightness often inherited from the non white parent. That said, not sure it'd really increase your chans of polka dots

Dreamlite- I disagree

Crossing to a velvet just means IF she throws it that it will show acrossed her back instead of elsewhere

Any TOV white I've had born, and a LOT that I've seen where exhibited across the facial areas moreso than anywhere else on the body with the exception of extra dark spots which seem to appear anywhere on the body.

 

[Dreamlite]

Vixen, I ment the 'spots' would show where normal veiling would be found rathr than on a leg or belly area. I understand what you are saying, I have trouble putting my thoughts into words some nights.

 

[VolunteerChin22]

I am not trying to prove if she is TOV or not I am trying to get kits that look more like her...That's all no more no less... (I have a thing for polka dotted chins...lol)

I would think you might have a better chance getting patterns crossing her with an extra dark eb if all you are looking for is pattern. If she is tov and as stated breeding her to a velvet is going to result in you waiting for a while on kits as production slows down...

 

[Spoof]

At least if I do breed her back to a BV then I may also get TOV whites so no harm no foul. I think it would be interesting to see what she throws when paired with one...no biggie...

I'd try it if that is what you want. I personally love the solid white with dark spots but I don't have that type of white here right now.

My predominant white line is a hot mess. Every white that comes out of that line ends up darkly marbled. It is neat looking but not quite what I was going for and last time I went to show I was told by the judge one looked "mean like a junkyard dog". Poor chin... lol!

I added Tov to it last generation, so we shall see what changes that makes with the upcoming litters.