Too much protein???

[jmdebb]

I just lost one of my chins a few weeks ago, and not to be rude, but don't want to go over that for it was hard to deal with. But I my mentor took her and did a necropsy [if I spelled that right] and told me: "Her liver had whitish/yellow fatty deposits on it and it was slightly enlarged..This leads me to believe a too high protien content in her food"

My mentor is a smart breeder and I don't always want to bother her so I am asking the question on this forum instead of bugging her.

Now I use Mazuri feed and Oxbow Timothy Hay, and looked at the packaging and seen that Mazuri feed has 20% protein and Oxbow Chinchilla Delux has only 16% [I sometimes mix Oxbow in their food]. Now this particular chin did belong to someone else before me, and I have no idea what they fed her, but do you think that there is too much protein in the Mazuri even though it's suppose to be one of the better feeds, or maybe could this have happened to her before I got her from what her previous owners fed her. I have had for for about 2 years and I have have no clue that if her previous owners did feed her a high protein food if after two years there would still be damage.

I have four other chins and don't want the same thing to happen to them [that is not why she died but what else was found out after she died], I want them to be as healthy as can be.

Thank you for all your advice.

Jean

 

[Snickers]

Sorry for your loss. I just had a hard time having one euthanize yesterday and waiting for the necropsy report. This one has been sick for a long time drooling. She had x-rays done last year plus a blood test around March or April. I also found out she was pregnant and she delivered 2 healthy babies. The Dr said nothing was wrong with her teeth. Her drooling some what got better then started again and losing weight. I had x-rays done & blood work done I believe in December still nothing wrong with her teeth. He said her liver protein was high but I told him it was probably due to feeding her the same stuff when you hand feed baby kits. I also included lifeline. She was fed this 6 times a day because she wouldn't eat the whole pellets. I'll let you know what her necropsy report reads when I get it.

 

[Chinniechantel]

I'm very sorry for your loss Jean. I don't know if that is too much protein in the Mazuri, but I do know I did not like how my chins were doing when they were on it, and I think there is something majorly wrong with it. Just my opinion though.

 

[jmdebb]

I'm very sorry for your loss Jean. I don't know if that is too much protein in the Mazuri, but I do know I did not like how my chins were doing when they were on it, and I think there is something majorly wrong with it. Just my opinion though.

Can I ask what you mean by how your chins did when they were on it?

I mean, do you mean the way they poohed, or energy wise, etc. Mine seem fine on it, but then again, I'm not sure what you are talking about. They pooh good sizes, but one of mine is a big hay eater, they are darker poohs, and now that i'm thinking about it, did someone once right in here that darker pooh means too much protein, maybe I should switch feed. hmmm. What color is their pooh suppose to be when it is a healthy pooh color?

And snickers, I'm sorry for your loss. When you get your report back on how she died, please let me know, I'm interested to know since she did all that drowling and they ruled out her teeth. I know the pain, again, I'm sorry.

Jean

 

[mishellyshel]

sorry for both of your losses. a lot of people feed their chins PANR & i think that has more protein than the mazuri. (correct me if im wrong), so i would like to hear opinions on this topic.
snickers--i would also like to know the results of the necropsy...

 

[ticklechin]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Purina Advanced Nutrition Rabbit Show Formula
http://www.rabbitnutrition.com/OurPr...a/default.aspx

Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein, not less than 16.0%
Crude Fat, not less than 3.5%
Crude Fiber, not less than 17.0%
Crude Fiber, not more than 20.4%
Calcium, not less than 0.7% 0.7%
Calcium, not more than 1.2% 1.2%
Phosphorus, not less than 0.4%
Salt, not less than 0.5%
Salt, not more than 1.0%
Vitamin A, not less than 4800 IU/lb

Advanced Nutrition Show Formula Ingredients:
Forage products (alfalfa), wheat midds, roughage products (oat or rice hulls), plant protein products, grain products, soybean oil, molasses products, calcium carbonate, salt, dicalcium phosphate, choline, chloride, DL-methionine, ferrous oxide, magnesium oxide, niacin supplement, vitamin E supplement, calcium pantothenate, riboflavin supplement, vitamin B-12 supplement, vitamin A supplement, vitamin D-3 supplement, zinc sulfate, zinc oxide, manganous oxide, calcium iodate, ferrous carbonate, copper sulfate, papaya extract, protease, yeast culture, dried lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried streptococcus faecium fermentation product, dried aspergillus niger fermentation extract, dried trichoderma viride fermentation


Mazuri - https://www.mazuri.com/PDF/5M01-5EE6.pdf

Guaranteed Analysis
Crude protein not less than 20.0%
Crude fat not less than 3.0%
Crude fiber not more than 18.0%
Ash not more than 9.0%

Ingredients

Dehydrated alfalfa meal, dehulled soybean meal, wheat middlings, ground soybean hulls, ground oats, wheat germ, dried beet pulp, cane molasses, soybean oil, dicalcium phosphate, monocalcium phosphate, dried whey, salt, DL-methionine, calcium carbonate, calcium propionate, vitamin A acetate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, choline chloride, folic acid, magnesium oxide, cholecalciferol (vitamin D3), dl-alpha tocopheryl acetate (vitamin E), calcium pantothenate, d-alpha tocopheryl acetate (natural source vitamin E), zinc oxide, nicotinic acid, vitamin B-12 supplement, riboflavin, dried streptococcus faecium fermentation product, dried lactobacillus acidophilus ferment product, yeast culture, dried aspergillus niger fermentation extract, dried trichoderma viride fermentation extract, manganous oxide, dried bacillus subtilis fermentation product, ferrous carbonate, copper sulfate, zinc sulfate, dried saccharomyces cerevisiae fermentation, calcium iodate, cobalt carbonate, sodium selenite.

 

[feistychins]

I think Mazuri is too high in protein. I have always understood protein should be no higher than 16%. I use Oxbow and have never had any problems with our chins.

From what you described about the necropsy it sounds like your chin had fatty liver disease.

 

[mishalaa]

I don't know numbers for chins - but I know that in rats, 18% is recommended for babies, pregnant and nursing moms, and 16% is recommended for everyone else. And this is for an animal that's an omnivore.

 

[Tanya]

Jean, I am so sorry for your loss. Do not blame yourself, who knows what previous owners were feeding?
Protein level in Mazuri is higher than in other feeds (21.6), however "Dangerous" levels of protein which cause damage in chinchillas appear to be around 28%.
Maybe previous owners were feeding the chin seeds or nuts. Chinchillas do not have a gall bladder and cannot deal with the fat efficiently. This leads to fatty liver disease, which is eventually fatal(liver becomes swamped with fat globules which stops any nutrients from reaching the liver cells).
Excessive levels of Vitamin A can also cause liver damage. And vitamin A in Mazuri is 35.200 IU/KG. Actual vitamin requirements for chinchillas are not established,but many believe that 35.000 IU/KG is too high. 12,000 IU/KG is recommended by some animal dietitians.
Just to compare vitamin A levels in some feeds
Mazuri 35,200 IU/KG
Tradition 3000 IU/LB(about 6000 IU/KG)
APD 4000 IU/LB (about 8000 IU/KG)
PARN 4800 iu/lb (about 10 000 iu/kg)
OXBOW 20 000 IU/kg.
Vitamin A oxidises putting strain on the chins body as it tries to remove it from its system, this can cause "yellow-fat disease".
I honestly do not understand why people think that Mazuri is one of the best chinchilla pellets.Protein is higher than fiber( Protein 21.6 Fiber 15.3 ), vitamin A level is so high. It also contains beet pulp and it at times is suspected of being the cause of digestive disturbances( from Chinchilla Diseases and Ailments, A.H.Kennedy). And not long ago they removed ground corn from the ingredients(corn is prone to mold and fungus in the manufacturing & storing process, not to mention being a contributor to bloat)
Just my opinion.

 

[jmdebb]

Thanks Tanya,

I do know alot of people so say mazuri is good, and i get it at a feed store so it's really cheap. I pay 13 for like 25lbs, but if it's not good for them protein wise, maybe i should switch them off of it, cuz i don't want my others to develop liver problems.

As for the previous owners, I bet they probably did have her on crap food because they let their cats near the chin cages, and cats shouldn't be near chins.

But like I said that is not what caused her death, just something else I found out afterwards and am wondering if people think the Mazuri did it, or if it could of been done by her previous owners feeding. Cuz I don't want my other chins to have liver problems, so anyone else have something to contribute, please do and help me understand the protein factor alittle better. THanks all.

Jean

 

[tunes]

I did not like Mazuri. It gave my chins diarrhea and their coats never looked as good as they did on other feeds. It didn't have the shine or fullness.

I hate to say this but "liver issues" seems to be the catch all for necropsies lately. I can name you a bunch of people who had animals die, all with different symptoms, different states, and even different feed, the answer was "slightly abnormal liver" or "spots on the liver." I'm starting to think if you do a necropsy on any chin, you are going to hear that, whether by itself, or in conjunction with the real issue.

All that said, I keep the protein in my chins food as close to 15 as possible. Right now it's 16%. I was told by my mentor, who is also a vet, that the lower the protein the better and I've tried to stick by that. I switched off of Mazuri because of it, because I always wondered if that is what caused the issue with the diarrhea.

 

[Cuddlebug]

I don't know if the same is true for chins as for people. Someone correct me if I am wrong. I have fatty liver disease. My doctor told me that my body just does not handle fat well causing my triglycerides to be too high. this turns into fat deposits on my liver. Protein has nothing to do with it. If the same is true for chins, I would hazard a guess and say that the chin was feed fatty foods by the previous owner and and the Mazuri feed is unrelated.

 

[Snickers]

I had this chin for about 15 months and all my chins are on PANR (Show). Ever since I found out she was pregnant I had problems with her. The last x-rays was ok. Blood test higher levels of protein. The next step my vet said to do was to have a biopsy of her liver or even see if she might have cancer. Which would have meant to give her anethesia (sp?) and cut her open. The cost would have been $500.00 and I already spent about $1500.00 on her for 1 yr. This would have been her 1st time under anethesia. When she had her x-rays done she just sat there which they were surprised. I hope when I get her report I can post her x-rays, blood tests, and her necropsy report since I'm not computer literate.

 

[feistychins]

I agree with what has been said about Mazuri. I have heard of many chins getting diarrhea when on it and I am not impressed with their nutritional guidelines. I think the brand is way overrated. My advice would be to switch to a better food. I also agree that the chin was most likely suffering from the long term affects of a bad diet of too many junkie fatty treats with her previous owner.

 

[Essentia]

I also used to use Mazuri and ended up switching from it. It gave one of my chins soft poo, yet the other was fine. Either way, they are both doing better on PANR so I'll stick with that until someone recommends something better.

Anyone know of something better than can be ordered through a feed store?

 

[Mt. Zion Chins]

I have used Mazuri for 13 years and never had a problem with it - I have a 15/12 and 11 year old in excellent health. The only reason I am now mixing it with PANR is because of cost. Since PANR is also recommended I don't feel I am hurting my chins by doing this

 

[Stackie]

I was another one that had chins with diarrhea while on Mazuri. I also think that the protein level is too high.

I feed my chins Oxbow, they do great on it.

 

[Anne-Lise]

I know of chins who were on Mazuri for a LONG time and never had a problem. But I also know of chins on Mazuri who did have diarhea problems. Fact is, some food fit better with your chins than others. I don't know for how long you got that chin and how old he was, but I would think that the problem was caused by what was fed to him BEFORE you got him.

 

[menagerie]

I just lost one of my chins a few weeks ago, and not to be rude, but don't want to go over that for it was hard to deal with. But I my mentor took her and did a necropsy [if I spelled that right] and told me: "Her liver had whitish/yellow fatty deposits on it and it was slightly enlarged..This leads me to believe a too high protien content in her food"

My mentor is a smart breeder and I don't always want to bother her so I am asking the question on this forum instead of bugging her.

Is your mentor a veterinarian? Does she have any pathology experience? What are her qualifications for being able to perform a necropsy and give educated findings? Were samples sent to a lab for analysis? Necropsies should be performed by professionals who have been trained to know what they are looking at and for. Someone who is able to look at test results and correctly interpret the results. Unless it was something obvious like something ruptured or a huge tumor, anything a novice tells you will be supposition and guessing.

 

[Chinniechantel]

Jean, I had runny poo and just not great appearance coat wise, like Tunes said, when on Mazuri. I did not like the quality of the food either, and when I switched to PANR I immediatly saw a very good change in all my animals. I was getting the Mazuri 4-5 months after the milled on date as well, even if I special ordered.