Ranchers and Showing

[Linda]

Thank you! This post is more direct and addresses what I've been trying to understand.

The owners know their animals, they're the best to talk to when it comes to the individual animal's lines and temperament.

Agreed. And if they don't know their lines, that sends a clear signal too.

A lot of breeders bring the pedigrees with them if they expect to sell the animal. Ranchers normally just give you the numbers off the pedigrees and no details on lines unless you ask and they know the animal off the top of their head.

By numbers off the pedigree, do you mean they tell you "X47" and perhaps such numbers on their parents like "W111" and "W35?" Do they have some system where you can look up the details? I see the classified listings by JAGS (just the one that comes to mind), and if I recall correctly, he lists number, birthdate, weight, and the genetics of the kit. Obviously if someone is not strong on the genetics, I need parents and grandparents to even guess at the recessives carried. I would have expected pedigrees to at least have birthdates and colors.

You will be given a sheet with numbers on them that tell you which cage belongs to a certain shower. If you see an animal in cage 5 you like - look on the sheet for 5 - find the person listed and ask around to find the person. That's how I learned who was who. Find someone to take you under their wing and introduce yourself to a bunch of folks at the show. This is what I had to do.

This is nice. I like seeing the entire group a breeder has brought. It provides things to consider. You can often see trends or characteristics common in their lines, colors they breed, etc.

The judges will line up the animals based on how they rate them.. they normally either start with either the best or the worst animal and go down or up from there. So say we have 8 animals in a class - one takes 1a, one 1b, four 1st, one 2nd and one 3rd. The judge may start with the 3rd place animal. State that the animal is out of prime, down in color, lacks size and just isn't in show condition that day. Up to the 2nd place animal - explains how it's better than the 3rd, but still lacks 1st place qualities. Then they go all the way through 1a and you'll be told how it was better than the 1b animal. Sometimes when theres too many animals the comments are rushed and the focus is on the top animals. It really depends on the judge and the actual show. You get a show booklet so you can write down comments on each individual animal.

Thank you. This is much better than I had come to expect. One of the best learning methods for me will be the traits that they get marked up or down on -- and ranking them gives me a much better feel than just a 1st place. This also implies that we can hear the judging, and I had gotten the impression that we wouldn't hear this kind of detail.

You don't need to go and ask the judge about an animal when they've already told you the qualities - go to the breeder and explain what you're looking for and explain what you have to pair with the animal and see if they can work with you from there.

I totally agree with not going the judge if we can already hear their comments during judging. Additionally, hopefully at least some of the breeders know enough about the standards and about their animals that they can also provide the strengths and weaknesses about the line a chin is from as well as about that specific chin. The more they know themselves, the more they're able to tailor their breeding program.

You can't learn everything in one show - it takes time and going to as many shows as possible and working with other breeders to learn the standard.

Agreed, but unfortunately there aren't a lot of shows for someone who lives in So Cal. Yes there are a couple of shows in the state each year, and I know I can't attend the Spring show given the date they've chosen. Perhaps they're there, but I haven't seen listings for shows in neighboring states (mostly Nevada and Arizona from So Cal). It's unrealistic at this point to head half way across the continent to a show and try to bring back animals.

After I'm finished, I walk around and look at the animals that are in the show cages, waiting to be classified (at MCBA) or put on the table. There are certain animals I may want, so I write their numbers down and look for them when they show up on the table. I always know what I'm looking for before I go to the show so that I can focus on finding that certain animal for my breeding setup. I write down what I'm interested in breeding and pairing so that I know not to buy a certain color and then not have anywhere to put it. I look for large, blocky, dense and clear animals and it's easier to see them after you go to more shows. I'm not an expert by any means, but the more I go the more I feel like I know what I want, and I'm getting better at it. During a break for lunch, I may go and talk to the breeder about their animal if they've been shown and I like their placings. That way I have an idea of whether or not the animal is sold and if I should continue watching it or give up on it. I keep watching for certain animals until the end of the show and keep writing down numbers. After the show is over, I pick the animals I'm most interested in, find their numbers and go to the breeder and start talking.

Thank you! Good advice.

One last question. I think you're saying only MCBA shows do classifying. How are the classes divided in Empress shows since that's what we have here in California?

Linda

 

[brenda]

One last question. I think you're saying only MCBA shows do classifying. How are the classes divided in Empress shows since that's what we have here in California?

Linda

Empress has a standard animal show and a mutation show. The standard show is a ten class system - which means the animals are split into 10 classes and are not classified into color phases as MCBA does. The first class of animals will be cages 1, 11, 21, 31, etc, class 2 is 2, 12, 22, 32, etc., and so on up to calss 10. The best animal in the class is the class champion, second is reserve class champion. Sometimes, depending on the show, there is a third best of class. Once all of the classes are judged, the 10 class champions are broght up to the table and the grand show champion reserve gsc, and sometimes 3rd best of show are picked. Animals are sorted into male and female groups in each class, but are grouped together when the class champion is chosen.

The mutation show is a bit more similar to the MCBA show, but the colors are not split into as many phases as they are with MCBA. Once all of the color sections are judged, each color section champion is brought to the table and GS, RGS, etc are chosen.

 

[threewingedfury]

By numbers off the pedigree, do you mean they tell you "X47" and perhaps such numbers on their parents like "W111" and "W35?" Do they have some system where you can look up the details? I see the classified listings by JAGS (just the one that comes to mind), and if I recall correctly, he lists number, birthdate, weight, and the genetics of the kit. Obviously if someone is not strong on the genetics, I need parents and grandparents to even guess at the recessives carried. I would have expected pedigrees to at least have birthdates and colors.

Yes, those are the numbers I'm talking about. You'll see the ranch brands, letter of the year and animal number. You'll also see the birthdate, forgot about listing that. There is no real system other than getting the info from the breeder, and if they don't have the info then there is nothing you can do. Now, for larger ranchers, you'll see that they just list the year and numbers on the animals, and you'll have to ask them about colors and so forth (at least this is what I've found from most of the ranchers I've purchased from). Most of the larger ranchers I've purchased from stick to a certain system in breeding. Say for instance one of the mosaic females I purchased. I received it from Ryerson - got the pedigree and there's absolutely no color listed. So, I give them a call, ask them the colors of the sire and dam - male is a mosaic, female is a standard. I ask about their parents. They state that the standard is a pure standard, mosaic is out of a mosaic and a pure standard. This is off the top of Jan's head. This is because they try to stick to putting mutes with standards to improve. Not all ranchers do so, but more do. For my chins I get from Shoots - I always assume that the standards have all standard backgrounds. If they don't, they normally tell me. Same with if I purchase a black from them - I know that one parent is a standard out of two standards and one parents is a black out of a black and a standard. JAGS has given me the colors with no problem, other ranchers don't keep all the colors listed on their cards. They keep cage cards for simplicity. Smaller breeders normally have the colors listed for each of the animals, but not always. Sometimes you'll just have to wait until after you purchase the animal to find out genetics - at least I've had to quite a few times. Birthdates you won't see for the sire and grandsire most likely. You can sometimes see how many kits were in the litter also.

Agreed, but unfortunately there aren't a lot of shows for someone who lives in So Cal. Yes there are a couple of shows in the state each year, and I know I can't attend the Spring show given the date they've chosen. Perhaps they're there, but I haven't seen listings for shows in neighboring states (mostly Nevada and Arizona from So Cal). It's unrealistic at this point to head half way across the continent to a show and try to bring back animals.

Well, it's up to you whether or not you want to stick to that one show. I personally drive from NC to PA, NY, OH and will now be going to Nationals (a 14 hr drive). This is because the people at each show will be different (most go to as many shows as possible as long as it's not too far for them) and the competition at each show may be different. For instance - the show we're having here in NC won't have any ranchers showing, unless JAGS comes down. Well, the competition at the York show in PA usually has 3 or more ranchers showing - so there is stiffer competition and it's worth going to. Nationals is pretty much the best of the best.

One last question. I think you're saying only MCBA shows do classifying. How are the classes divided in Empress shows since that's what we have here in California?

Empress shows are divided into a 10 class system. There is the standard show and the mutation show. When you bring your animals in, they're given numbers. Instead of classifying animals into phases, you put 1, 11, 21, 31, 41... etc together and judge them against each other. It saves a lot of time.

And I see Brenda explained the rest ^

 

[arf2184]

And we always get asked where the chinchillas are, but it doesn't seem like chinchilla clubs do a lot of public education displays.

I think part of the reason for this is many events (fairs, expos, etc.) are in the summer time. Temperature becomes an issue for bringing animals to these events as many times the buildings are not air conditioned, or even if they are, they aren't kept cool enough for chins to be comfortable. It would be nice to have educational displays though. Perhaps it will be something that is done more in the future. Chinchillas are increasing in popularity as pets and there is a growing need to educate pet owners who believed what they were told by the pet stores.

 

[brenda]

It would be nice to have educational displays though. Perhaps it will be something that is done more in the future. Chinchillas are increasing in popularity as pets and there is a growing need to educate pet owners who believed what they were told by the pet stores.

Both MCBA and ECBC hold annual meetings that also serve as educational seminars on many chin topics. Some of the branches and chapters do the same. The MCBA chapter here in Wisconsin has a seminar in April most years - we are in the process of planning it now and will have information posted here once it's finalized.

 

[Linda]

I think part of the reason for this is many events (fairs, expos, etc.) are in the summer time. Temperature becomes an issue for bringing animals to these events as many times the buildings are not air conditioned, or even if they are, they aren't kept cool enough for chins to be comfortable. It would be nice to have educational displays though. Perhaps it will be something that is done more in the future. Chinchillas are increasing in popularity as pets and there is a growing need to educate pet owners who believed what they were told by the pet stores.

The Pet Expo is always mid April. This year it's the 16 - 18. The nice thing is that you don't have to bring animals if it's too warm. (We're in the 70's right now in December, so you never know with California.) If you set up a chin cage and plaster the back curtain of your display with pictures of chins, you've got everything you need. Plus you can use stuffed chins. (I use a stuffed hamster running on a wheel sometimes and have often been known to tell people the hamster they need is the stuffed hamster and not a live one.) Yes, people would like to see chins, but they're optional. We have siberian dwarf hamsters, and they have done fine. Considering they're nocturnal and literally go out during the night in siberian, mongolian, and neighboring areas in the winter, they're as susceptible to heat as chins.

But again, you don't need to bring live animals. I printed a bunch of 8-10 color photos of different hamster species in the various colors to post on the back wall, and they are very popular. Everyone can identify with something, and some of course have no idea that they're pointing to supposedly exactly their hamster when there's no way they had that animal at that time (mutation wasn't even discovered yet), but we don't tell them. And I do a notebook with pictures that people love. We also have larger pictures, but I don't have the same variety. And we always have empty cage because they get people's attention without having the animals subject to people playing with the cages, and we do not take the animals out for petting or any interaction in this environment.

The goal is to give them resources like flyers with web sites or forums to join for good information. Also, by putting up a good chin cage, you will get into all kinds of discussions on caging which is a topic that's needed for chins. You can also have both a good cage and a bad cage to show. We do that with hamsters. It can help educate instead of leaving them to rely on pet stores. And you can show chin safe items versus most of what's out there in pet stores.

And these people are just regular animal lovers. They don't pay for entrance and spend the day if they don't love animals. And there is an absence of good information on most animals but definitely chins. Ours is in Orange County, but people from the surrounding counties like LA show up, and it's one of the best opportunities to reach a lot of people with good, solid info. Literally thousands show up although not all make it to the small animal building.

Both MCBA and ECBC hold annual meetings that also serve as educational seminars on many chin topics. Some of the branches and chapters do the same. The MCBA chapter here in Wisconsin has a seminar in April most years - we are in the process of planning it now and will have information posted here once it's finalized.

You'll reach an entirely different audience at the Pet Expo. You'll reach animal lovers that don't necessarily have chins, may or may not be considering chins, may be looking for breeders or rescues to get chins from, may just be curious about them, may have a friend/relative/etc. with a chin, and so forth. It's just people who love animals, but we get questions about chins each year -- especially the year they used a picture of a chin in their television advertising. The weekend is mostly answering questions of all kinds.

You'll also reach thousands during one weekend at no cost except your time and whatever it costs to print some flyers and pictures (or whatever you do to decorate your booth). And for those with rescues, this is a good place to make contacts. There is a rescue building, and that's the only place where animals are allowed to change hands during the Expo, but I doubt chin people would want to do same day adoptions right then and there knowing the people most likely don't have the set up ready and waiting for a chin.

Linda

 

[Linda]

Well, it's up to you whether or not you want to stick to that one show. I personally drive from NC to PA, NY, OH and will now be going to Nationals (a 14 hr drive). This is because the people at each show will be different (most go to as many shows as possible as long as it's not too far for them) and the competition at each show may be different. For instance - the show we're having here in NC won't have any ranchers showing, unless JAGS comes down. Well, the competition at the York show in PA usually has 3 or more ranchers showing - so there is stiffer competition and it's worth going to. Nationals is pretty much the best of the best.

Well, 14 hours will just about get me to Portland or Denver but won't get me to Nationals. I need to look again, but I haven't been seeing many shows in the western states. There is one in Colorado in February which would be a long haul, but it's also fairly risky weather wise to make that drive in February -- especially for those of us without winter car equipment or extensive winter driving experience any time recently if at all!

Linda

 

[Linda]

It almost sounds like you are trying to convinvce yourself going to a show is worthless. I have learned so much at shows as well as the anual seminars that go on

There was a time when I was very excited and looking forward to the show, but the comments made me reduce my expectations. People here are saying some of what I heard was not true, but reading that we couldn't hear the judges, that no comments are recorded, to just have the judge pick my animals for me, etc. was discouraging. The show is five hours away so not terribly close with a date that's not particularly easy for me.

I'm doing everything I can to attend, and we'll see what comes of it.

And yes both Bowens and Valley View are close to me, but for reasons not appropriate to post on a forum, I haven't rushed over there to purchase chins.

Linda

 

[Spoof]

The show is five hours away so not terribly close with a date that's not particularly easy for me.

Five hours is a close show in the Western States. The common places to have them are Santa Nella, CA / Vancouver, BC / Seattle, WA / Hermiston, OR / Boise, ID

We'll be driving 19 hours strait through each way, really just to help make it a sanctioned show. It's a very long haul and very costly.

Bowen occasionally hosts something, but not a sanctioned show. I'd recommend going to one while you can, with costs going up and less people showing in the area they may not be around for much longer.

 

[aznmexaggie]

Why let a good resource go to waste?

And yes both Bowens and Valley View are close to me, but for reasons not appropriate to post on a forum, I haven't rushed over there to purchase chins.

Linda

Gary and Margot (Bowen Ranch) are some of the best in the industry and on the show table and if you are going to be purchasing show quality or breeding animals, you would not be disappointed with their animals. Two years ago, I drove to their ranch (8 hours from where I live) just to have them help me evaluate animals and help me choose a clear dark standard male that would best compliment a few of my unpaired 1st place and Class Champion standard females. They are incredibly helpful and one of the best resources for anyone interested in showing or breeding. They have so much knowledge and experience, it would be a shame to not meet with them, especially when you live so close. They could answer all the questions you've been asking and even show you animals to help explain.