Ranchers and Showing

[Megan]

I actually am not a rancher, and do not consider myself a "rancher"( I do not pelt). I consider myself more of a hobby breeder, as I sell for pet and/or breeding animals


I think you've brought up some interesting points, especially on how people of different species breed, and what they take into account when placing animals into breeding. It does make you think. I would say though, even if I had a stunning animal who was nasty and they pass that trait to their offspring, It would more then likely be pulled from breeding. So while tempermant may not be the upmost important thing to me, as I truely feel chinchillas are fairly "tame" by nature. I've been lucky that all but one of my animals are friendly, and are not biters and the one who is a biter hasn't had her kits pick up on it

Now take dogs for interest. The temperments of many breeds are going down hill. More and more breeds of dogs are not displaying the proper temperment(especially my breed of choice), so if I was looking for another dog and chose to go the breeder route, a breeder breeding for the proper temperment and health vs the "exact" show look would be much more important to me over an animal that has the "exact" look, but the temperment is not there.

I'd rather discourage them from buying my animals before they buy than have them disappointed after they purchase.

I couldn't agree more with this statement!

 

[shuboyje]

I totally agree that I don't have a ranching outlook. It's not really a pet outlook either. I consider myself a hobby and show breeder. I breed to improve the breed. I know you don't know my history in breeding other breeds, but I am one of the strongest voices for improvement of the breed. And I consider health and temperament to be the top priorities followed by show qualities. To be honest, I haven't fully figured out what the "ranching outlook" is.

You may breed for improvement, but based on what? Obviously it is based upon a standard but what influenced that standard? Who decided what was good and what was their reasoning?

Get my point? How can you breed for improvement without something to improve. I highly doubt the clarity of the under fur of the belly affects how good of a pet a Hamster is so have you really improved that animal?

Chins are very different, and it is why they interest me while other small animals don't. We breed to a market. Why is a dirty belly bad? Because the zebra stripped chinchilla look sells and it requires a white belly. The list goes on and on. This doesn't mean you have to pelt, but it means you are improving the gene pool for those who do. Striving for healthy well tempered animals on top of that is a great thing, and it is something even the biggest of chinchilla breeders have always done. It just makes good business sense.

 

[Linda]

I highly doubt the clarity of the under fur of the belly affects how good of a pet a Hamster is so have you really improved that animal?

You have taken what is a couple of points within one category of the scoring to try to point to the standards as useless. I'm not sure that's really the right thing to do. I certainly have not tried to take the most obscure thing with chins and blow it out of proportion.

We breed to a market. Why is a dirty belly bad? Because the zebra stripped chinchilla look sells and it requires a white belly. The list goes on and on. This doesn't mean you have to pelt, but it means you are improving the gene pool for those who do. Striving for healthy well tempered animals on top of that is a great thing, and it is something even the biggest of chinchilla breeders have always done. It just makes good business sense.

This is where we have to agree to disagree. I will never look on a chinchilla as a pelt first. To me, a chin will always be a living, breathing animal first and foremost. Regardless of what will happen to that chin at a later date, while the chin is with me, it will have human interaction on a regular basis. I will never have numbers that are high enough that I can't have regular human interaction with them. That's my personal preference and something I feel strongly about.

To me, no animal is breeding quality unless it has good health and good temperament. I won't look at them as a good pelt first with temperament or health a nice-to-have.

If this means that no chin I raise will ever be purchased by a rancher or ever find its way to a fur coat, I'm 100% fine with that.

Linda

 

[shuboyje]

Linda,

These a feelings I've had for a long time now, and if CnQ was still up I could show you old posts to support that.

I noticed you didn't answer my other questions:

You may breed for improvement, but based on what? Obviously it is based upon a standard but what influenced that standard? Who decided what was good and what was their reasoning?

On the topic of health and temperament, sorry if I came across wrong. Health comes first and foremost to most breeders, and certainly to reputable breeders. Again it just makes good business sense if nothing else. Temperament is also a major concern, nobody wants to be sprayed by a female everyday as they walk through their barn, but honestly temperament issues with chins are fairly uncommon, and even more so seem to be environmental in most situations.

You can certainly breed for health, temperament, and quality. Many if not most do. As a point of advice learn the difference between a animal that is simply not used to being handled and an animal with a poor temperament. It will make things much easier as most quality chins with the health records you are going to want are not going to be used to being handled, but that does not mean they have bad temperaments, and it certainly does not mean they have genetic issues that they will pass on. You'll now the first time you run across as true bad temperament, it is like a chin version of the exorcist.

 

[tunes]

This is where we have to agree to disagree. I will never look on a chinchilla as a pelt first. To me, a chin will always be a living, breathing animal first and foremost. Regardless of what will happen to that chin at a later date, while the chin is with me, it will have human interaction on a regular basis.

This is off topic, but I'm saying it anyway. As a good friend of mine often says "You can't be a little big pregnant, and you can't be a little bit rancher." My point being, you're saying they are living, breathing things deserving of all the care you can give it "as long as they are with me." I have to say, that irritates me. I'd rather a rancher be up front about pelting and how he runs his ranch, than to have someone make comments about never pelting and so on, then say "if a chin of mine never makes it to a fur coat, I'm fine with that." As though if they do, that's okay too?

You can't knock the ranchers and the pelt market, then turn around and make that comment. I will never, EVER sell to someone that I know pelts live animals for fur coats. There, it's out there. I have absolutely nothing against ranchers who pelt, I wouldn't have my chins without them. I learned a ton of information from them and hopefully still will in the future. But I won't sit in a thread and say that I will take great care of my chins as long as they are here, give them lots of interaction, lots of play time, wood chews, treats, and handling, but once they leave here, oh well - whatever. I think you're going to find that most people who consider themselves hobbyists (let me clarify that as being non-pelting) are going to think this is nothing more than talking out of both sides of your mouth.

You want information on shows and you are being given it. If you want to place on show tables, there is a standard that you must adhere to. If you want to show, your chins are going to be held to that standard. When they are in that little cage on the show table, the judges could care a less if snookums likes waisins and a scritch at feeding time. He's going to be grading your chin against the pelt standard that has existed for many years. How you run your herd is of no concern to him. What concerns him is that you are breeding top quality animals and you're going to be graded accordingly.

Many if not most do. As a point of advice learn the difference between a animal that is simply not used to being handled and an animal with a poor temperament. It will make things much easier as most quality chins with the health records you are going to want are not going to be used to being handled, but that does not mean they have bad temperaments, and it certainly does not mean they have genetic issues that they will pass on. You'll now the first time you run across as true bad temperament, it is like a chin version of the exorcist.

Exactly. I have 270 chins here. I do not handle them all every day, and anybody who tells you they do either spends 24/7 in their barn or has absolutely no life out of it. Not even to do housework. If you ask anybody who has ever gotten a chin from me, they will tell you that I have some of the friendliest chins they have ever owned. I don't handle them every day. I just don't have a lot of mean, spastic chins who run around like Godzilla attacking everything in their path.

 

[brenda]

As a judge, I have to throw this in - Yes, for the most part, chins on the show table are judged to a pelt standard, but an animal that makes a good pelt will not always make the best breeder, or show animal. A big, blocky show animal is for breeding purposes. An elongated animal will make a better pelt, but will not show as well. All of the characteristics that we judge on are for the betterment of a breeding animal. The pelt market ends up getting what the rancher gives him, which is not the very best animals he breeds. I've heard it said - Breed the best, pelt the rest.

 

[Claire D]

Once again, I'll throw this in without wishing to be controversial.

Here in the UK we only have a pet market - there is no pelting and no fur farming (it was banned in 2000) - but we still hold chinchilla shows based on the industry breed standards - we're after big, blocky chins with excellent conformation, blueness, silky, strong, stand-up fur etc etc etc.
Is that about the pelt? Maybe in part but it is more, as Brenda says, about breeding quality chinchilla - Judges here talk about the animals in terms of breeding purposes.

We do not class anyone here as a rancher either - it's just not a term we use. I think that's more about numbers than anything else - for example, Peggy would be classed as a big breeder here

*scuttles off back into her corner*

 

[RDZCRanch]

As a judge, I have to throw this in - Yes, for the most part, chins on the show table are judged to a pelt standard, but an animal that makes a good pelt will not always make the best breeder, or show animal. A big, blocky show animal is for breeding purposes. An elongated animal will make a better pelt, but will not show as well. All of the characteristics that we judge on are for the betterment of a breeding animal. The pelt market ends up getting what the rancher gives him, which is not the very best animals he breeds. I've heard it said - Breed the best, pelt the rest.

Very well said!:thumbsup:

 

[Linda]

This is off topic, but I'm saying it anyway. As a good friend of mine often says "You can't be a little big pregnant, and you can't be a little bit rancher." My point being, you're saying they are living, breathing things deserving of all the care you can give it "as long as they are with me." I have to say, that irritates me. I'd rather a rancher be up front about pelting and how he runs his ranch, than to have someone make comments about never pelting and so on, then say "if a chin of mine never makes it to a fur coat, I'm fine with that." As though if they do, that's okay too?

You can't knock the ranchers and the pelt market, then turn around and make that comment. I will never, EVER sell to someone that I know pelts live animals for fur coats. There, it's out there. I have absolutely nothing against ranchers who pelt, I wouldn't have my chins without them. I learned a ton of information from them and hopefully still will in the future. But I won't sit in a thread and say that I will take great care of my chins as long as they are here, give them lots of interaction, lots of play time, wood chews, treats, and handling, but once they leave here, oh well - whatever. I think you're going to find that most people who consider themselves hobbyists (let me clarify that as being non-pelting) are going to think this is nothing more than talking out of both sides of your mouth.

You want information on shows and you are being given it. If you want to place on show tables, there is a standard that you must adhere to. If you want to show, your chins are going to be held to that standard. When they are in that little cage on the show table, the judges could care a less if snookums likes waisins and a scritch at feeding time. He's going to be grading your chin against the pelt standard that has existed for many years. How you run your herd is of no concern to him. What concerns him is that you are breeding top quality animals and you're going to be graded accordingly.

You have been involved in chins long enough to have educated yourself on the process and made such decisions. I have not yet made my decision on who I would or would not sell to. You've got to remember that I don't yet own chins that would produce kits that any rancher or show breeder would want. And I don't know enough about the pelting process to know how I feel about it and whether I would sell to someone who pelts or not. At this point, I'm more concerned with someone who would put down a kit because a parent has developed malo after that kit was conceived. I don't see the purpose in doing that while there is at least a purpose to pelting. I have made a decision on the malo question, but I haven't made a decision about pelting. So I have made some decisions. And at this point, I have no interest in seeing a chin pelted.

And as for winning at shows, I may never win. And it may not be because my chins are worse than anyone else's. I think I've read on the forums (and I may be wrong) that people don't handle their chins for two months before a show because there may be lingering grease in the coat at the show which would lessen the chin's chances of winning. Grease in the coat is not a permanent feature although it may affect the coat appearance on that day. And given that some people appear to go to show after show without a two-month break until summer, it means that some chins are apparently not held for six or eight months at a stretch. Personally, I'll be handling my chins during those two months and will take the hit on show day, but that's purely my own decision.

Exactly. I have 270 chins here. I do not handle them all every day, and anybody who tells you they do either spends 24/7 in their barn or has absolutely no life out of it. Not even to do housework. If you ask anybody who has ever gotten a chin from me, they will tell you that I have some of the friendliest chins they have ever owned. I don't handle them every day. I just don't have a lot of mean, spastic chins who run around like Godzilla attacking everything in their path.

And by the way, I don't know if the reference to daily handling was directed at me, but I've never said mine will be held daily. There are definitely times that they won't be, but I also won't go for two-month or even one-month periods without handling them.

Reading posts on this forum may be deceiving, but I read about temperament issues, about not being handled at judging because they're not handleable, etc. This may be an inaccurate picture, but it's the picture I've gotten from reading this forum.
Linda

 

[threewingedfury]

Reading posts on this forum may be deceiving, but I read about temperament issues, about not being handled at judging because they're not handleable, etc. This may be an inaccurate picture, but it's the picture I've gotten from reading this forum.

Temperament may be part of it, but it really comes down to messing up the chin's fur for show that day. After we spend months of preparation in pre-grooming, dusting and then the touch ups on show day, it's a disappointment if your chin slips fur or ends up greasy from being held. I've had my animals get wet from water bottles on the long drives to the show and it really messes with their fur condition, and it's a disappointment. I'd be pretty angry if a judge took my chin out of a show cage and my chin slipped fur, it would no longer be in show condition and those months of preparation would be thrown away. Chins are not going to have the best temperament on show day anyway. Some people have to drive 10-20 hrs to shows and the chins have to sit in the cars for those periods of time and then deal with being held by their tail to be groomed - they're gonna be some pissed chinnies. It just seems like a bad time to have a stranger pick up your chin. My chins may be fine with me, but I just don't see a judge picking up each individual animal and assessing it on hand. You don't get a clear look at the animal in the hand - they need to be on white paper so that you can find the faults in an animal. With as much time as it already takes to make it through the show and how many of them are already rushed, I just don't see that ever happening in the chin world.

 

[Linda]

You may breed for improvement, but based on what? Obviously it is based upon a standard but what influenced that standard? Who decided what was good and what was their reasoning?

Get my point? How can you breed for improvement without something to improve. I highly doubt the clarity of the under fur of the belly affects how good of a pet a Hamster is so have you really improved that animal?.

I'm not sure where you're going with this. Are you asking me if I intend to create different standards or accept the standards already set? If so, I'm trying to learn and understand the current chin standards. I'm getting the idea that this is not easy to do -- that the information cannot be readily learned.

And again, this is coming from responses I've gotten on this forum, but if I'm understanding correctly, the CA show in January will have two judges -- a sanctioned judge and one in training. What I've come to expect given responses to posts is that the grooming time before the show will be chaotic. I won't have a chance to talk to many people and understand either what they have available for sale or characteristics about their chins including their strengths and weaknesses -- and I won't have a chance to handle anything due to grease.

There will be chins in their show pens, and I can look around at those, but the information included on them will be limited. I know they won't have pedigrees so there won't be genetic information (and I'm considering working with recessives), but I don't even think the owner would be identified not that I could find owners anyway.

Then the show will start. There will be the two judges, but they will be separated from the audience. I've asked if we can hear there comments on the animals so we can learn from the judging process. I don't know if I've gotten an answer, but people have told me you talk to them after the show, so I don't think we hear them or learn from the judging process. I've asked if any comments are written down, and I don't think I've gotten a straight answer to that either.

So again, what I've been able to piece together is that a show is not really a good place to learn about the standards and the judging itself and is also not a good place to buy chins. I've drastically reduced my expectations for the show. I can go pick out a chin or two and try to get some information from the judge on that chin, but sales end like 10 minutes after the show, and I won't know the one or two chins I want to buy within ten minutes of the show ending.

And the show results appear to be categories only other than the top few winners. So there is a group of 1st places, a group of second places, a group of third places, and I think it goes to 4th or 5th but no one seems to list it if their chin gets 4th or 5th. I can look at the 1st place category and hopefully see a difference between them and the 2nd place category, but I really won't have learned much about the standards and how to evaluate strengths and weaknesses in any chins I breed nor know enough to purchase.

People have said to just tell the judge to pick my animals for me and buy what they say, but that won't help me understand the standards and how to evaluate my own animals, so it's of very limited value to me. Plus, I might be looking for traits the judges don't look for (like temperament is an important trait to me, and I won't take a chin even if it's Best in Show if it doesn't have the temperament I want).

So I can't say at this point that I know enough about what is considered a chin that represents the standard if I can't find a way to learn the standard well enough to assess my own chins, their kits, and any chins I'm considering adding to my colony.

As a point of advice learn the difference between a animal that is simply not used to being handled and an animal with a poor temperament. It will make things much easier as most quality chins with the health records you are going to want are not going to be used to being handled, but that does not mean they have bad temperaments, and it certainly does not mean they have genetic issues that they will pass on. You'll now the first time you run across as true bad temperament, it is like a chin version of the exorcist.

I don't expect this to be a major problem for me. I do it all the time both with hamsters but also with the dog breed I foster for. I have to go into the shelter environment (which itself is a poor and stressful environment) and assess whether a dog is a good candidate for rescue and will make a good pet -- or not. I know to walk away if need be. And I've had shelter workers literally apologize for the behavior of a dog I'm assessing, and I've pulled that dog telling them that the behavior is due to the current environment and correct for the breed. I have had years of experience dealing with those dogs I have pulled to see whether I assessed them right or wrong.

There will obviously be a learning curve with chins (and I just don't have the experience and have perhaps relied too greatly on what I read here). I expect it will be a fairly steep learning curve, though, given the fact that I have dealt with the issue in other breeds for many years.
Linda

 

[threewingedfury]

And again, this is coming from responses I've gotten on this forum, but if I'm understanding correctly, the CA show in January will have two judges -- a sanctioned judge and one in training. What I've come to expect given responses to posts is that the grooming time before the show will be chaotic. I won't have a chance to talk to many people and understand either what they have available for sale or characteristics about their chins including their strengths and weaknesses -- and I won't have a chance to handle anything due to grease.

There will be chins in their show pens, and I can look around at those, but the information included on them will be limited. I know they won't have pedigrees so there won't be genetic information (and I'm considering working with recessives), but I don't even think the owner would be identified not that I could find owners anyway.

Before the show starts it can be very chaotic - but that's why you need to get there early and get a good look at everyone's chins while they're grooming them. If you see something you like, ask the person any information you want to know. Don't be afraid, we don't bite. You can see something about the chins temperament based on how much it wiggles or squeals while it's being groomed. No, you can't hold it, but if you're still interested in that chin - watch for it's number on the table, see how it does in show and then after the show is over, go back to the owner and pick up the animal with their permission.The owners know their animals, they're the best to talk to when it comes to the individual animal's lines and temperament.

A lot of breeders bring the pedigrees with them if they expect to sell the animal. Ranchers normally just give you the numbers off the pedigrees and no details on lines unless you ask and they know the animal off the top of their head. You will be given a sheet with numbers on them that tell you which cage belongs to a certain shower. If you see an animal in cage 5 you like - look on the sheet for 5 - find the person listed and ask around to find the person. That's how I learned who was who. Find someone to take you under their wing and introduce yourself to a bunch of folks at the show. This is what I had to do.

Then the show will start. There will be the two judges, but they will be separated from the audience. I've asked if we can hear there comments on the animals so we can learn from the judging process. I don't know if I've gotten an answer, but people have told me you talk to them after the show, so I don't think we hear them or learn from the judging process. I've asked if any comments are written down, and I don't think I've gotten a straight answer to that either.

The judges will line up the animals based on how they rate them.. they normally either start with either the best or the worst animal and go down or up from there. So say we have 8 animals in a class - one takes 1a, one 1b, four 1st, one 2nd and one 3rd. The judge may start with the 3rd place animal. State that the animal is out of prime, down in color, lacks size and just isn't in show condition that day. Up to the 2nd place animal - explains how it's better than the 3rd, but still lacks 1st place qualities. Then they go all the way through 1a and you'll be told how it was better than the 1b animal. Sometimes when theres too many animals the comments are rushed and the focus is on the top animals. It really depends on the judge and the actual show. You get a show booklet so you can write down comments on each individual animal.

So again, what I've been able to piece together is that a show is not really a good place to learn about the standards and the judging itself and is also not a good place to buy chins. I've drastically reduced my expectations for the show. I can go pick out a chin or two and try to get some information from the judge on that chin, but sales end like 10 minutes after the show, and I won't know the one or two chins I want to buy within ten minutes of the show ending.

I think that shows are the best place to learn the standards and it's where I enjoy buying some chins, but it's not a sole place of buying chins because it just shows the placing of the animal on that certain day. You don't need to go and ask the judge about an animal when they've already told you the qualities - go to the breeder and explain what you're looking for and explain what you have to pair with the animal and see if they can work with you from there. Or, bring your animals to the show and have them ready to compare qualities so that you can compliment. You need to spot your chins before the show, or write down ones you may be interested in during judging. Sit on the front row so that you can see details.

And the show results appear to be categories only other than the top few winners. So there is a group of 1st places, a group of second places, a group of third places, and I think it goes to 4th or 5th but no one seems to list it if their chin gets 4th or 5th. I can look at the 1st place category and hopefully see a difference between them and the 2nd place category, but I really won't have learned much about the standards and how to evaluate strengths and weaknesses in any chins I breed nor know enough to purchase.

I'm not exactly sure what you're saying by this, but the animals aren't really grouped by their placings other than the top winners. The animals are placed back into their number spot (show cage 5 goes on the place for cage 5) while the top animals go head to head. You can see the difference in the animals on the show table. Write down a few animals and why they placed 1st or 2nd and then go and look at them after the show.

People have said to just tell the judge to pick my animals for me and buy what they say, but that won't help me understand the standards and how to evaluate my own animals, so it's of very limited value to me. Plus, I might be looking for traits the judges don't look for (like temperament is an important trait to me, and I won't take a chin even if it's Best in Show if it doesn't have the temperament I want).

You can't learn everything in one show - it takes time and going to as many shows as possible and working with other breeders to learn the standard. Showing your chins will help you learn how you're doing with your breeding and how you need to improve. Finding complimentary mates also helps to improve - you have to learn the faults in your animals and if you don't know what you're looking for, then a show is where you need to be. Don't rely solely on a judge for temperament - talk with the breeders, as I mentioned before.




So - when I go to a show, I get my grooming done ASAP. After I'm finished, I walk around and look at the animals that are in the show cages, waiting to be classified (at MCBA) or put on the table. There are certain animals I may want, so I write their numbers down and look for them when they show up on the table. I always know what I'm looking for before I go to the show so that I can focus on finding that certain animal for my breeding setup. I write down what I'm interested in breeding and pairing so that I know not to buy a certain color and then not have anywhere to put it. I look for large, blocky, dense and clear animals and it's easier to see them after you go to more shows. I'm not an expert by any means, but the more I go the more I feel like I know what I want, and I'm getting better at it. During a break for lunch, I may go and talk to the breeder about their animal if they've been shown and I like their placings. That way I have an idea of whether or not the animal is sold and if I should continue watching it or give up on it. I keep watching for certain animals until the end of the show and keep writing down numbers. After the show is over, I pick the animals I'm most interested in, find their numbers and go to the breeder and start talking.

 

[Ash]

The judges will make plenty of comments as to why "a" chin is better than "b" chin and you will be able to hear those comments and write them down. If a chin takes lower than "2" it's probably not something you want to start off with in your herd, anyway. You can ask plenty of questions of the breeders beforehand, people aren't going to ignore you just because they're grooming. You can also browse through the threads in the showing section to see who is going to certain shows and ask if they'd be willing to talk to you.

Most people getting into breeding don't choose their animals at their first show, they work with a good, reputable breeder as a mentor. That person teaches them what to look for, and what goes on at shows, etc. Before picking out what to breed, you should really go to a few different shows. After your first or second, offer to be a handler when they ask. A handler is someone who helps bring chins up to the table for sorting and judging. You'll be there behind the tables to see what is going on. Sit in the front rows so you can see.

You can also get an idea of what the standards are by both MCBA and ECBC websites. They describe the standards. If you're going to breed chinchillas, breed to the standards. Don't try to breed otherwise. We're not looking for "friendly" animals. Chinchillas are, generally by nature, friendly. They don't want to kill you (aside from the rare one), and your sweetest chin can produce the nastiest tempered kits and vice versa. I believe it's Peggy who has a chinchilla that is meaner than ****, but her kits are the friendliest. (Correct me if I'm wrong Peggy!)

Go to a few shows, learn the standards, find someone nearby who's reputable and can mentor you. Many chins can take a "1" in their grouping. You want to breed for those chins, and that means learning what's best and picking it and breeding it, not the 3's and 4's and 5's.

 

[aznmexaggie]

And again, this is coming from responses I've gotten on this forum, but if I'm understanding correctly, the CA show in January will have two judges -- a sanctioned judge and one in training. What I've come to expect given responses to posts is that the grooming time before the show will be chaotic. I won't have a chance to talk to many people and understand either what they have available for sale or characteristics about their chins including their strengths and weaknesses -- and I won't have a chance to handle anything due to grease.

Some of us will have many animals to groom but it isn't like we will be unable to answer questions. Since this is your first show, I think it may be difficult to see certain qualities in the animals right off the bat. It is hard to discuss clarity or a muddy bar or see offcolor in an animal that is not under the show lights... and it takes a trained eye to see these differences as well, as minute as they may be. No, you won't be able to handle any of the animals before the show because of the risk of fur slip and also because of the oil in your hands. However, after the show, if you are interested in an animal that is for sale, the rancher will take the chin out and will probably let you handle it - I like to get my hands on chins I'm interested in after the shows so I can use my hands to feel for fur density and see the strength of fur after I have touched it.

There will be chins in their show pens, and I can look around at those, but the information included on them will be limited. I know they won't have pedigrees so there won't be genetic information (and I'm considering working with recessives), but I don't even think the owner would be identified not that I could find owners anyway.

The information viewable to the audience on the cage cards will be sex, color, DOB, and cage number. The breeder name will also be on the card, although covered up until the placing of the chinchilla is announced. The judges will only be able to see sex and DOB which will also be written on the backs of the cage cards by the animal handlers. The audience will get a sheet which lists each rancher/breeder and the cage numbers which their animals are in. The ranchers normally have the pedigrees of the animals with them, in case they sell the animal, but this information is not on the cage cards.

Then the show will start. There will be the two judges, but they will be separated from the audience. I've asked if we can hear there comments on the animals so we can learn from the judging process. I don't know if I've gotten an answer, but people have told me you talk to them after the show, so I don't think we hear them or learn from the judging process. I've asked if any comments are written down, and I don't think I've gotten a straight answer to that either.

The judges are in front of the audience, behind the table and grading lights. The judges give comments on the animals once they have decided and announce their placings, but they will not discuss anything with the audience while they are evaluating the animals and deciding what their places are. I write down all the comments given of all the animals at the shows so I can look at them after the shows and train myself to also see what the judges are seeing... and also compare them to my own comments of certain animals who I took a liking to before the show started. However, there is no one who officially records all the comments. I'd say most of the ranchers/breeders write down the comments given for their own animals.

So again, what I've been able to piece together is that a show is not really a good place to learn about the standards and the judging itself and is also not a good place to buy chins. I've drastically reduced my expectations for the show. I can go pick out a chin or two and try to get some information from the judge on that chin, but sales end like 10 minutes after the show, and I won't know the one or two chins I want to buy within ten minutes of the show ending.

A show is not enough to learn the standards and develop the "eye." It will take many shows and looking at many animals to learn. It's too bad you missed the West Coast Affair in October. One main focus was on assessing qualities, grading animals, scoring methods, and then a "practice judging" with a few classes of male and female animals which we had to grade given what we had just learned.
This State Show is not a field day so there will be no "closing time" for purchases. Sales end once the rancher leaves. Personally, I think field days or actual visits with a rancher are the best times to purchase animals though as the ranchers likely will not be selling every animal they bring to the state show.

And the show results appear to be categories only other than the top few winners. So there is a group of 1st places, a group of second places, a group of third places, and I think it goes to 4th or 5th but no one seems to list it if their chin gets 4th or 5th. I can look at the 1st place category and hopefully see a difference between them and the 2nd place category, but I really won't have learned much about the standards and how to evaluate strengths and weaknesses in any chins I breed nor know enough to purchase.

With the comments made by the judges, hopefully you will be able to see the qualities which are bringing those chins to first place or what is knocking these chins down to second or below. When the judge says, "This animal is only getting a 2nd today because she's out of prime and breaking over the hips and slightly casty", you learn what a casty animal out of prime looks like. If the judge says, "This animal is in perfect condition today - has nice, strong, standup fur, good density, good clarity - very blue. 1st place", you learn what a clear blue animal in prime looks like. The judges will make comments on the animals and why they have placed them that way. If you really want a one-on-one with a rancher for detail in evaluating an animal, a field day or visit with the rancher would be best. The State Show is a competitive show and not as much of a teaching show, although I am always learning something at every event, no matter what type of event it is.

 

[ticklechin]

You have a few award winning ranches in SoCal, Bowen for one that maybe you should visit and purchase from them, they are from what I understand very nice people and very patient with questions.

 

[tunes]

And by the way, I don't know if the reference to daily handling was directed at me, but I've never said mine will be held daily. There are definitely times that they won't be, but I also won't go for two-month or even one-month periods without handling them.

First, no it wasn't. I don't even know if you were in that thread. I haven't gone back to look.

And second, please, stop cross posting in threads. It is very confusing for people who haven't read the thread the quote originated from, and they won't understand the context of the quote. If you want to comment on the quote you provided, do it in the thread you read it in. I've seen you do this a couple times and it gets pretty confusing for the people who are trying to follow the topic.

I will quote you again:

This is where we have to agree to disagree. I will never look on a chinchilla as a pelt first. To me, a chin will always be a living, breathing animal first and foremost. Regardless of what will happen to that chin at a later date, while the chin is with me, it will have human interaction on a regular basis.

Then I would guess, to me, this will be a cruel way to go about breeding. If I walk into a ranch, I would expect animals that have not been handled and do not necessarily have interactions with humans on even a weekly basis. Some ranchers feed, do a visual, and move on. I've been to ranches where they don't even do that much. They threw food and leave, or, they hire someone to feed for them. I doubt that person is going to be well versed in what to look for in a chin having issues. I have stated many times I would rather see my chins go to a pet home first, regardless of their quality or blood lines, than into a run where they will never be handled or given all the fun stuff that chins are given.

I know this may seem off topic, but I'm just trying to get a handle on your thought processes, because they seem a bit jumbled. If I'm not understanding this correctly, then I may have read something into your posts that isn't there. What I'm getting is, as long as they are with you, they will be treated as pets almost, given attention and so forth. But once they leave you, however they are treated, no big deal? I think a "true" pet person, who makes that statement would already have made up their mind about how they are going to run their herds. You constantly refer to hamsters for comparison. Was that your intention with them as well? Care for them as long as you have them, but once they are gone, oh well?

As far as showing goes, as people have pointed out, you will learn a TON if you sit in the first row and actually pay attention. The judges will tell you in detail why they chose one over another, all the way through the show to the grand show champion. Sometimes if you listen closely and there isn't a lot of babbling going on, you can hear their comments while they are actually deciding. When I am able to attend a show, I like to go through the show animals and get a good look at the animals, get certain ones fixed in my mind, jot it down, and see how my thoughts compare to what the judges say or even where they place. When I hear the judges comments, it lets me know whether I'm on the right track or not.

As an aside - shows are also invaluable when it comes to networking. You get to meet people who you can buy animals from, supplies, who you can ask questions of and learn from. Even if you got nothing from the actual judging (and you will, trust me) all the other things you can glean from the minds of the experienced folk around you is incredibly useful.

 

[starleomach]

I have had many conversations with people while grooming. I have had many ranchers point things out in animals while they are grooming. Most people at shows are very happy to help others learn. And there is often a lot of time to talk with the judge and many others throughout the day.

It almost sounds like you are trying to convinvce yourself going to a show is worthless. I have learned so much at shows as well as the anual seminars that go on

 

[Spoof]

I have had many conversations with people while grooming. I have had many ranchers point things out in animals while they are grooming. Most people at shows are very happy to help others learn. And there is often a lot of time to talk with the judge and many others throughout the day.

Agreed, there is a lot of chatting that goes on while grooming. If you get near me you'll get offered a comb and a chin, regardless of your skill. We're often grooming right down the wire so this show will be nice - half each day.

This show should be a blast, seeing Donna is trainee judge Rod will probably be there as a "helping hand"... lol.

It almost sounds like you are trying to convinvce yourself going to a show is worthless.

I was starting to get that feeling too. You're close, just show up. )

 

[Linda]

That's interesting about the hamsters and shows. I can't say I have ever heard about hamster shows-but I know many people have never heard of a chinchilla shows either. Very interesting. Can you provide a link to a show that was done and links to what is considered a show quality hamster?

Let me provide this youtube video. Remember it's done for the media, so it's a bit cheesy in places.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aD0M1q2gwOc

Britain has more hamster shows than the US or most any other country. The National Hamster Council in Britain is about 60 years old, and this is a show at one of their clubs.

You can see the show pens. Some clubs use the kritter keepers available in pet stores in part to contain waste and minimize transfer of disease although there aren't a lot of diseases with hamsters.

Here is a very basic page on shows. You can see there are no special lights.

http://www.hamsters-uk.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=73&Itemid=66

The British use the screens to judge the belly and help "handle" the hamster during judging.

Hamster clubs also tend to do educational displays to help educate the general public who tend not to be well educated on hamsters, their care, housing, food, etc. (Guess they listen to too many pet store employees.) Our club does the Pet Expo every year. It's a huge animal expo at the fairgrounds that thousands attend. We also do a show there on the Saturday of the event. The Expo runs Monday through Friday. (And we always get asked where the chinchillas are, but it doesn't seem like chinchills clubs do a lot of public education displays.) We've also done fair displays at the three counties closest to us although some have discontinued having the small animal clubs.

And here is a virtual show. It was purely an educational endeavor to help those not near actual shows.

http://nicholescritters.homestead.com/HIFvirtualshow1-intro.html

Linda

 

[threewingedfury]

Wow - very different from a chin show. Especially the fact that there are virtual shows. There's absolutely no way you could judge a chinchilla by a photo. There used to be virtual awards in the chin community but I haven't seen it in a long time. I think it was based on the cuteness factor, because you can't really tell the quality of an animal unless you're looking at it on a show table.