Esperanza and Maia

[LittleTrinkets]

I'm still a little confused on the whole cage topic.

You originally posted that when Maia climbs the cage she can fall from 18 inches to 2 feet. When questioned what type of cage she was in you said they were currently living in a breeding run. Now, I do not own any breeding runs or have any personal use for them but isn't the height of the runs much shorter than 2 feet? I have a feeling I'm missing something and would love to be cleared up on this topic.
Thanks much!

 

[Mikayla]

It's nineteen inches at the tallest point. She doesn't climb it unless I have removed Esperanza to weigh her or something. I make it a point to grab Maia first now. She normally doesn't climb all the way up when she does though

 

[Amphy64]

Mikayla - you need to be handfeeding regardless of further weight loss - kits should not be allowed to nurse on a mother taking baytril. That means you need to be feeding every 2 hours round the clock in addition to the handfeeding of the mother. I would change vets because obviously they are not as knowledgeable as they should be. Just because he/she is a vet does not mean they are chinchilla knowledgeable.

Oh, so, it isn't Ok, then? (not blaming you Mikayla - as you said, you did consider it and so did ask the vet about it and were told it would be fine) What a difficult situation, if mum needs the antibiotic but it isn't good for her kit. So, does that mean in this type of situation, it's ok for baby to still be with mum as long as she is handfed so she won't be drinking much/at all from mum? Or would you have to split them, though I guess it would be preferred not to do that? Oh, and would there be any risk of infection being passed? I know that the Merck Veterinary Manual says that in cases of metritis, infection can be passed to kits, but that's apparently through contact with infected discharge which I imagine isn't an issue at this point.

It's good to hear both Esperanza and Maia (pretty names) have gained weight, Mikayla, hope they continue to do well. )

 

[VolunteerChin22]

It is my understanding kits should not nurse at all from a mother on a powerful antibiotic like baytril. I had a mother who needed baytril for possible pyrometra and I culled the kits and hand fed them exclusively. They were housed in their own cage with a cuddle buddy. My vet told me not to let them nurse. I am sure people have done it and nothing happened to the kits - I wont take that chance and I am sure many other breeders will agree on this. Why take a chance when handfeeding solves the issue?

 

[Mikayla]

I was told to let her nurse by my vet, I am going to follow her suggestions. I trust what they say, they were recommended by a very experienced veterinarian. As long as she's gaining and active and her belly is full and warm, I think I'll leave her be :thumbsup:

 

[Stackie]

Baytril is known to cause bone development problems in young chins and animals, if the mom is on baytril it will be passed through the milk.

 

[Mikayla]

Yes, I was told that, but the vet said it wouldn't hurt her, that's my #1 priority to make sure baby is healthy, if she stops gaining I will pull her from mom.

 

[Becky]

Mikala,

Stackie is right. Baytril causes stunted bone growth, so is never to be used on growing animals. That would include nursing. You need to handfeed the kit and pull her from mama.

It's really hard to go against the vet's advice- we all know that, but unfortunately, vets have no experience with chins (with a few exceptions). They do their best, but often give bad advice.

 

[tunes]

Ditto what Becky said. I don't care what your vet said. We are speaking from experience. You need to completely hand feed that kit and keep him away from mom.

 

[Sycamore Chins]

Just to add, as it seems like you think hand feeding is not as good for the baby as nursing, babies can thrive on hand feeding. I had trips last year who were stuck while their mom was in labor for at least 9 hours, were delivered via emergency c-section and were shockingly alive, then lost their mom after three days. They were hand fed and did extremely well at the NC show and should do just as well at natl's coming up. Hand feeding does not have to negatively affect their growth, or potential.

 

[greychins]

Last year I had a chinchilla die from pregnancy complications. She was at the vet, which tried to spay her, and put her on baytril. When the vet called to talk to me about her condition, one of the FIRST things she mentioned was that the babies should NOT be feeding off of mom. That never became an issue, as the mother did not recover and the babies had to be handfed.

Regardless, the point is, my vet, and a lot of other competent vets, know of the danger of Baytril being passed in the mother's milk to the kits, and advise against it. Why would you go against the collective advice that it's bad just because your vet said it's ok? I hate to say it, but I've had people recommend "great vets" before, heck, I've even had vets recommend "great vets" before.... and sometimes vets are great.. in general....with cats and dogs and super-common-pets.... but so few vets know about chinchilla care, that I personally trust the wisdom of the forum when everyone on the forum agrees about something. Even though my current vet is chin-knowledgable and such, I still ask the forum if some major health issue arises because of the experience and knowledge that's on here...

I have raised kits purely on handfeeding before. They are no different as adults as the mom-fed kits are. If anything, mine were more friendly than usual because we had handled them so much. I can't say I personally enjoyed the every-2-hour feedings, but that's what comes with breeding, and when mom has issues and should not be feeding the babies, it becomes your responsibility to take care of them the best way you know... which in this case, should involve removing them from mom and handfeeding.

 

[Sdo9396]

I agree with everyone else. Even though your vet may be a great vet, he/she may be ill-informed with chinchillas. I would go with what the people on this forum are saying. They have been there and done that and they are giving you advice based on their many years of experience. They are just telling you what is best for your chinchillas. Please, just take their advice and hand-feed the kits and do not allow them to nurse from mom.

 

[VolunteerChin22]

Last year I had a chinchilla die from pregnancy complications. She was at the vet, which tried to spay her, and put her on baytril. When the vet called to talk to me about her condition, one of the FIRST things she mentioned was that the babies should NOT be feeding off of mom. That never became an issue, as the mother did not recover and the babies had to be handfed.

Regardless, the point is, my vet, and a lot of other competent vets, know of the danger of Baytril being passed in the mother's milk to the kits, and advise against it. Why would you go against the collective advice that it's bad just because your vet said it's ok? I hate to say it, but I've had people recommend "great vets" before, heck, I've even had vets recommend "great vets" before.... and sometimes vets are great.. in general....with cats and dogs and super-common-pets.... but so few vets know about chinchilla care, that I personally trust the wisdom of the forum when everyone on the forum agrees about something. Even though my current vet is chin-knowledgable and such, I still ask the forum if some major health issue arises because of the experience and knowledge that's on here...

I have raised kits purely on handfeeding before. They are no different as adults as the mom-fed kits are. If anything, mine were more friendly than usual because we had handled them so much. I can't say I personally enjoyed the every-2-hour feedings, but that's what comes with breeding, and when mom has issues and should not be feeding the babies, it becomes your responsibility to take care of them the best way you know... which in this case, should involve removing them from mom and handfeeding.

Agreed - I would not believe one vet over all of the people who have chimed in and agreed on this point regardless of how great they might be with other pets. Personally, the fact the vet told you it would be ok is a huge red flag they are not chinchilla experienced.:banghead: Not your fault they don't know, just shop for a new vet for your chins and move on.

Also agree on the hand feeding - it's not a bad thing, in fact, in this situation its the best thing to do as you say you are concerned with the kit's health as your top priority. You seem fixated on the gaining weight issue - that is not the only issue to be concerned with here as we have pointed out. The baby will gain weight just fine being handfed. You are already handfeeding the mother, so I don't see an issue. Unless you just don't want to commit to getting up every two hours?

 

[Mikayla]

I called two other vets and they said to let baby stay with mom as long as she's gaining and she's fine, either way she wouldn't be getting enough baytril through the milk to bother her. All the vets have experience with chins, this vet that I went to (CSU vet hospital) sees chins and other exotics very frequently. If I see anything wrong with Maia I will handfeed her. Thanks for all your thoughts!

Maia is up to 60 grams this morning, and Esperanza up to 610 grams!

Also, when I talked with the vet who did the surgery, he said that it can sometimes cause joint issues in puppies, but it hasn't been reported in other animals.

 

[Christina Noraas]

Ugh.

Just because they 'see' chinchillas and other exotic animal all the time does not mean that they actually know all of the correct information, I highly doubt that when going through school there is a whole class just on the anatomy of chinchillas let alone what can be and cannot be done to them. Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't most vets trained to operate on general pets, such as cats and dogs. I'm pretty sure that vets only know about what to do with exotic animals is when experienced people such as those on this forum talk to them about it and inform them what is right and wrong.

I just don't understand why you would basically ignore and disregard people who have FAR more experience than what you or my self could imagine. It's like everytime I hear you come up with more excuses not to listen to the members on here, I feel like that you just don't want to take the time to feed them. I'm sorry if I'm wrong but that is what it seems like to me.

So if there is joint pain being caused in your baby kit, then your telling me that your going to be able to see it? Do you not remember the basics of looking for when a chinchilla is getting sick? They hid their illness very, very well and a lot of times it is hard to see when it is too late. Thankfully I've never had my chinchillas have an illness yet that I haven't caught in time, but I'm sure that any of the members on here who have been through it will tell you the same thing.

And if what every one is saying that it stunts their growth, how are you going to see that right away until it is too late. Honestly, if it were my kits and I had this issue with the mom where she was on baytril and there was even the slightest chance of them being unhealthy because of it I would definatly do everything I could to make sure that nothing would happen to them that I could have easily prevented.

Vets are not perfect, their knowledge can be flawed. Not all of them have been through every single situation. I would definatly be listening to multipule people who have been through this situation rather than going with the one who has not.

Just saying that's my opinion, take it or leave it. It just seems like you have more excuses than what carter has pills.

 

[momenteller]

CSU is one of the top vet schools in the country. I would hope they'd be up to date on this kind of info?

 

[Mikayla]

That's why I trust their opinions, momenteller. I'll keep everyone updated with Anza and baby! I awaiting the call of another vet for his opinion.

 

[Stackie]

I'm curious, what are the names of the two other vets that said it was ok to let her keep nursing? It is (or should be) common knowledge with ALL vets that baytril is not advised to be used with any young animals.

 

[Sycamore Chins]

Okay, so from the Plumbs Veterinary Drug Handbook (which every vet pretty much carries in their pocket or has on a string attached to their lab coat) directly, it says:
"...because of the risks of cartilage abnormalities in young animals, the fluoroquinolones are not generally recommended for use during pregnancy unless the benefits of therapy clearly outweigh the risks." This is in application to dogs.

I will see if I can get a hold of the Exotic Animal Formulary (i'm banking on winning it in a raffle at the end of the year, but may be able to access it online)

ETA (because Alicyn needs to learn to read down further):
In the Drug handbook it says:
Chinchillas, gerbils, guinea pigs, etc..."dosage". Then "Do not use in young animals. (Adamcak and Otten 2000)"

Now let's see if I can get a hold of that publication.

 

[momenteller]

Did you try Lynn's vet? The Alameda guy? Maybe he'd do a phone consult.