Considering a starting a breeding herd

[vimkgt]

Hi all,

Let me intro myself first since I guess I never really did that yet... my name is Jon, and I used to be a member of C&Q before that site died. I've been keeping chins since 2006 I think and used to be in the Midwest, in Chicago and St. Louis area, starting from my first pet store chin, and eventually having 4 total that I got from local breeders in Chicago.

I just moved to Beijing, China about 2 years ago, and just started getting pets again after deciding I'll be living in China long-term. Got 4 that we picked out from a Chinese site similar to Craigslist, and as you saw from my previous posts, one of them was put down after just a few days due to horrible teeth issues.

So anyways, I'd like to start getting some high quality animals for breeding and try to improve what we can get over here in China. I've looked around and there are basically only back yard breeders and pet shops here. No source of any decent quality chins, and the ones we get here are really runty, with males around 400g, and females under 500g. And really poor fur quality too compared to what I had in the US.

I've talked to Chinchillas.com since they seem to be one of the few ranchers who ships internationally, and basically found out that we have to ship them to Hong Kong first and then transfer them from HK into mainland China. For 10 or more chins, the overhead cost is about $350USD per animal on top of what the chins themselves cost for shipping and other related international export fees/taxes/insurance.

Considering that the more rare recessives sell for $500-1000 USD here (violets, sapphires, even pink whites) and the quality of those animals is really really bad, the shipping fee isn't really that bad.

So I'm considering ordering about 10 or 15 good quality animals I can breed from Chinchillas.com (Ritterspach line chins I believe?), and starting to produce some higher quality chinchillas here that I can keep and also share with some friends I've made in the local community here. I'm hoping to increase the overall quality of what's available in China and hopefully get some of the local breeders to focus more on quality than just making a bunch of every color. Starting off with some nice pedigreed animals from well known ranchers in the US seems like a good way to do it. And a few of the breeders I've talked to are all interested in going in together with a big group order so they can get nicer pedigreed animals as well.

Unfortunately, we don't have any chin shows or anything I can go to here, and most of the breeders I've talked to seem to know even less than me about what makes a decent quality chin. They only breed for color here, so mute-mute breeding is basically all that happens here, and I guess that's why the animal's quality is so low.

I'd like to get some advice from some of you guys on how I can get started. I know that high quality standards are the base of any decent herd, but from a financial perspective, I can only have about 50-60% max standards, because no one here will pay more than $75USD for a standard regardless of quality, and considering that my base price will be minimum of $500 each, I'd lose too much money for it to be feasible.

I'm looking for advice then on what kind of animals to get for a good foundation herd. Should the best quality standards that I get mostly be males or females? And which of the mutations are "easier" for a newbie breeder to start off with? I'm thinking I can focus on ebonies, beige and white, for a while, and leave the recessives alone until I have a better idea how the whole process works.

My budget is about $10k USD. If I start with 10 chins, at least $3500 of that is going to spent on shipping, and I'm guessing an additional $3000 for 10 good quality chins is about reasonable. If we do this, I'll try to purchase them next fall around November to make sure that they don't die from heat stroke during shipping.

My other option is to look around locally for high quality animals, but then the problems are still the same... no pedigree or history, outrageous price, so if I'm paying $500+ for a chin, I might as well get one from a trusted name in the US anyways.

Appreciate the advice anyone can give, and if you have any questions or need info from me, I'd be glad to provide!

 

[Kansas City Chinchillas]

Will you be using breeding runs?

 

[vimkgt]

Yes, most likely will use run setups and possibly keep some pairs, depending on space. I don't think I'm experienced enough to try colony breeding, and wouldn't want to risk my limited amount of animals unnecessarily. I'll most likely build the cages myself with pine board and sectioned off in 4-5 units per run. Or is it recommended that runs be wire instead of wood so the females can all "see" each other?

 

[ticklechin]

Do you have access to GOOD vet care?

 

[vimkgt]

While I don't have enough 1st hand experience, the vet that I recently saw treated 3 other chins in the time I was there, one for a teeth filing, one some kind of pregnancy issue, and the other I'm not sure. The guy seemed quite knowledgeable about chinchillas in general. One of the other chin owners also recommended me another vet that is supposedly also quite well known for being a chin specialist, so at least I have a 2nd opinion too if needed. Medical costs are also not an issue, we can afford it easily if any issues arise.

 

[Brittany]

Hey Jon,

As far the vets go I would also know ahead of time which facilities have the equipment for working with such small animals. For example, when I moved to Ohio I found a vet who claimed he could do filings, but he could only use injectable anesthesia. After some more searching I found a vet with even more experience, that also had the equipment to use gas anesthesia which is much easier on the chin's system.

I'm a pet owner, but I've attended a few shows. I've seen many HIGH quality animals that sell for less then $350. Since you're going to be making such an investment is there any way you could travel to the US to attend a show? If so you could contact several breeders who will be attending, ahead of time. At the show you could see first hand what makes a quality animal. Breeders could also show you what makes a good pairing. I've heard so many knowledgeable breeders say that it's not just about pairing quality, but pairing quality animals with traits that compliment each other. I don't know if it's too soon, but both the ECBC and MCBA National Shows are coming up in March.

It sounds like you and your friends are taking on quite the endeavor. Good Luck!

 

[VolunteerChin22]

No, in typical runs females don't see each other. They have a wire run way the goes across the back and wire door fronts but top sides and bottom are solid with pull out pans...if you haven't seen a picture I can post one or link you. Where are you planning to keep them? Tell a little more about your possible set up. I would invest in some show lighting if I were you weren't already, so you can have a means for evaluating your chins....

What type of feed/dust will you have access to? If you can't get good feed/dust then it might not be worth it - beautiful animals fed crap are going to start looking like crap and having health issues.

I think you could create a market for standards since it sounds like the market there is "impressionable" but it will take time for you to establish yourself. Look at Shoots for instance, he sold his "OK" standards for $200-250 here and went up from there because of the reputation he built up over time. And I am not sure if their definition of "quality" would be the same as US standards. I don't typically charge as much for my standards as say my ebs but I look at it this way, one $75 standard feeds my herd of about 20 for 2-3 months. It doesn't make me much money after care, vet bills, upkeep, etc. but it does help with feed/shavings cost. And besides, keeping the quality in the mutes is absolutely dependent on standards so whether they fetch the highest price or not, they are really not negotiable in a good quality herd.

If you use a breeding run set up, you need to invest in the highest quality males you can afford in your budget no matter what the color. Because in a run set up, he passes on his genes the most, often pairing with three or more females. I wouldn't focus on getting your size from your males - size is important but huge males sometimes are slow breeders. I like mine in the around 700-750g range and try to put them with big females (800g+). t think you need a mixture of std males and females, but it depends on how you want to structure your runs...Me, I have one ebony run (1 eb male/2 eb females/ 1 tan female), one white male run (1 white male, 1 std female, 1 beige female), one std run (1 std male, 2 white females, 1 black velvet female). At first I liked whites and blacks and then added the ebony line and the beige. Sometimes I toy with the notion of just focusing on ebonies and dwindling down the other variations, but part of the fun for me is the variety of babies I get. Some people like to focus on specific colors and get known for them.

How big do you want to be at max? With a breeding mix of 10 chins that keeps you around low 20's with kits about year round...is that too many for your space? If so you will need to think about only having one - two runs rather than three...If you want to be bigger, then you will need to eventually bring in some new males to female kits you keep back because eventually you will run out of gene pool in a small herd.

I think your instincts are right to stay with white, beige, or velvets first - their quality is most established here in the states over other mutes. With ebonies, the gene can be carried so you will need to understand how that affects pairings. Ebony can be a little tricky to work with (remember you will get shades of ebony out of pairings so they won't always be extra dark, so not sure what the market is for a medium ebony, lets say) but doesn't require as much space as violets/sapphires. You are going to need tons of carriers, pure standard pairings, and good quality violets/sapphires to work with and get quality animals, and you will end up with a higher ratio of standard and standard carrier babies to sell.

Did you attend any shows while you were in the US or do you travel back to the US to see family? It's going to be hard for you to know what quality looks like without a show...

 

[vimkgt]

Appreciate it the thorough and informative replies. To address some of what you all mentioned:

For feed/dust, I'm currently using Oxbow pellets. We have Oxbow and Mazuri here, and while it's sometimes difficult to find in stock, I've discovered I can order it online if necessary. We also have the usual other stuff too, timothy and alfalfa hay, and apple wood branches, covering the basic dietary and gnawing needs.

For dust, I can get Blue Cloud, but it's pretty expensive. Right now I'm just using a cheaper alternative brand dust, which as far as I can tell, does almost as good a job. I'm only using Blue Cloud now when I really want them to look nicer, but often can't really tell the difference.

You also made a very good point about what is considered "quality" over here. Right now, quality seems to mean rare colors. I talked to some breeders who had a violet pair, and she said she wouldn't sell them for under $2500 USD (16,000 RMB) because the babies easily sell for at least $800 (5000 RMB) a piece. And the violet pair was of fairly low quality, I'd guess both of them were in the 500g range and wedge shaped, with not so great fur quality. I haven't heard people here really talk about "quality" in the same terms that people in the US do... things like body/face size and shape, fur density, strength, color clarity, things like that... usually people do appreciate "nice fur" and large size, but that's about as much as I hear about quality. Not much different from the US pet market I bet.

So it seems I need to do more market research and assessment first to see what the overseas imported chinchilla market is like and what people value here... pet people and breeders naturally have different opinions of what makes a quality animal. I'm hoping to do more of a niche type deal that targets breeders, and get higher quality animals closer to the top of the chain. I don't think it's unreasonable, and it's also kind of a marketing thing. It's China after all, and there's plenty of people here with obscene amounts of money who pay ridiculous money for "quality."



As far as space, I'm thinking starting out with runs and a total of 8 or 9 females, and a few higher quality males, either 2 or 3 depending on the run set up. I have basically an empty bedroom that can be completely used for this purpose, and I figure that with smaller cages, I can have at least 20 cages including the runs. As a hobby, I probably don't want to deal with more than that.

I'm actually most likely coming back to the US in June/July for a visit. I don't think there are any shows during the middle of summer, but maybe I can arrange to visit a ranch and at least check things out. I'd be travelling between a few cities, so a trip to Ohio to visit the Ritterspach ranch if they let me.


Also, this may be a stupid question, but for using runs, is the main advantage that you don't need to do introductions as carefully because the male can just escape into his tunnel if the female fights with him? This way the male can get accustom to the female at his own pace, versus the manual labor that goes into pairing up 2 chins. Otherwise, you could just play "musical chairs" with the male and house him with a different female every night without having to use a run-style setup.

 

[chinchillalover0927]

With runs you keep the run hole shut for a few weeks then you open one females hole a week. I have had my chins for almost a month now and I only have one females hole open in each run . so out of 12 females I have 3 open to my males. Also switching the male around to a different female sounds very dangerous and i would expect a dead chinchilla or two doing things that way. When I bred in pairs or colony my male didn't leave until I knew his female (s) were pregnant .

 

[EMSChins]

If you are going to be in Ohio I would definitely recommend visiting Shoots, Ryerson's and Hummel if you are able and they have availability. They are some of the best breeders/ranchers in this area as well as several of them being Empress/MCBA judges so could talk your ear off about quality and the possibilities as well as the realities.

 

[javachin]

You use runs for the purpose of only having 1 male to X amount of females. If a male and female were getting into a serious fight, it would be hard for him to accurately get into that hole with all of the aggression. I'm not experienced with this matter however, but I wouldn't keep swapping out a male to different females. I think your propensity for fights would go up. Also, by having runs, its a way to have less animals (so to speak) with just the 1 male to a bunch of producing females.

 

[vimkgt]

I understand why you shouldn't hop a male around like a potato to different females and definitely wouldn't consider doing that, but I was just curious about how males get introduced into runs with multiple females without fights popping up. In theory, it's not much different, but in practice, the male gets a choice of which female to go to, and has an escape route in case of any issues, which to me sounds like the main advantage.

 

[6Dusters]

The runs are designed to have a small cube area for each female. So lets say you have a three hole run. The run will have three seperate apartments. Your male will have one apartment and he can run through the wire back of each apartment to see the girls.

He than has the opportunity to visit the females through the wire seperating them. He will then have the chance to introduce himself through the wire while the ladies are getting used to his presence being around. You will start with the girls having the holes shut down. Then you open a hole one at a time. I don't use them. But they are a great space saver. I'm not sure if that note helps or not. And of course I've read stories and heard people tell me when a females collor comes off there can be fights between females that end badly.

 

[mishalaa]

Yes, that is the main advantage of a run. Also, being able to shut the male out when a female is close to littering (to prevent breedbacks) and while she is nursing, but still allowing him to see/smell her through the run so reintroductions aren't a problem.

Setting them up is a multiple step process, you don't just fill the run up and hope the male gets along with the girls. He gets his own hole the first week or two, with access to the run to meet the other girls. Then open up the holes to the girls, while he still has his own hole to get feed and water in case the girls don't take to him right away. Once he gets along with at least one of them, you can close his hole off and put another female in there, then after another week or two, open that hole back up so all the holes are filled with females and he has access to them all.

 

[VolunteerChin22]

Agree with Mish that the easy reintros are probably the best part. They do get out of collars and I have several females i put two collars on just to be sure.

If you visit the ranches you can get the main benefit of the show...Have the ranchers pull a few animals and put under the show lights for you to point out differences in quality. Ryerson has done this for me several times when I am considering animals and wanted another opinion. Pull a few animals of the colors you were interested in and different aged animals and compare. I would also have them pick some young animals they see promise in so you will be able to start training your eyes to know which ones to keep back. They will be honest and won't just say it's good because it's theirs. Not sure if the Ryersons would have many for sale right now, as Jan told me last month they had an air unit go out last summer and lost over 800 of their best animals (ugh i can't imagine ) so I know they are in a rebuilding phase, but I am sure some of the other big guys would be happy to do the same favors for you.

 

[vimkgt]

****, that's horrible. I'd hate to lose even one of my chins due to the AC unit going out. That's also something I'm worried about... if any of our AC units go out, it's fine because every room has an independent window unit and the chins can be moved around. But if the electricity to the whole building goes out in summer, we're screwed. We can't exactly run a gas generator indoors. My only real backup would be to use freezer packs, but if the outage lasts more than a few hours, what else can you do? I've heard people say you can dunk their lower bodies in water in case of extreme emergency...

 

[Brittany]

I've heard people say you can dunk their lower bodies in water in case of extreme emergency...

I've never heard that... not sure how I feel about that one. I would load them in an Air Conditioned car, move them to a friends, vets office, anywhere with AC. My AC went out last summer. I ended up taking them to the music building on campus for a few hours until I got a hold of a friend to let us stay at their place.

 

[vimkgt]

The emergency water cooling advice came from this website:

http://www.greenwoodchinchillas.co.uk/emergencycool.htm

But yeah, moving them somewhere where the electricity is working makes sense, and cars have AC even if the whole city is out of power. Just thinking about worst-case city brownout for a whole day or two scenario. But then again, if that ever happened, we'd have to worry about my 85 year old grandmother a lot more than our chinchillas...

 

[pudding]

If i were you, I would do more market research first. People in China buy chin from local pet store and online store. In large cities, most new owner buy young kits from other chin owners. In large city such as Beijing and Shanghai, the private party price is 500RMB for std male, 600RMB for std female. White mosaic is 1500-2500 depending on how white it is. Violet (with other color such as baige and white) and diamond are currently very popular now, their price are overestimated. Long hair chins is also very attractive now. If you want to make profit no less than 0, you need to consider whether your price and quality is competitive.

Chinchillas, as newly introduced pets, are imported into mainland for only about 10 years. For potential chin owners, acquisition takes priority over quality. When chinchillas become popular and easy to buy, people may consider quality. So education is very important. I 'm very glad you want to introduce high quality chins and help chinese improve their herd of chins. But it is very hard and complicate.

I have heard that the death rate of import is high. There are several breeders in Beijing having imported chins from ohio several times. If you know them you can ask about details.

Good luck!