Breeding/color question.

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Pookinaround

FUZZ BUTT ENTHUSIAST
Joined
May 20, 2012
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758
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Pittsburgh, PA
I am somewhat new to this so please forgive me but I have a situation with a new pair of chins that is puzzling me. My avatar is a picture of Bojangles the son of a Brown Velvet and a **** Pink White that I just got on Saturday. I got mom, dad, Bo and his brother Gordon from a pet owner who had to move back in with his mom and dad so it was pretty much a last minute need to find them a new home issue. Now granted I am not an expert by any means but they do appear to be above average quality. Jared (the guy I got them from) really didn't know much about their history other than they came from a breeder in OH and they were about 3 -3 1/2 years old. He had them since they were babies and these were the only 2 kits ever produced.

My question is how can you tell if a pink white is TOV or not??? Reason I am asking is that if they have only produced a single kit twice in 3 years could this be because of the TOV lethal factor issue? Mom especially is above average quality and I am wondering if maybe I shouldn't re-pair her with someone else because of the fact that the pink white she has been with all her life could be TOV. Is my thinking logical on this issue??? At first glance mom appears to be beige but just now I finally got a chance to just sit and watch her in the right light and I just realized she is brown velvet and not beige at all. (She is my first Brown Velvet) again being somewhat new I am still catching onto some things here...If pics will help just let me know and I can upload some. I'd also love to find out who they came from so if any of the breeders in OH read this and anything I mentioned sounds familiar please let me know.
 
You won't get the lethal factor breeding a **** pw to a brown velvet. The only way is breeding a tov to tov. I don't know what the background of the **** pw so couldn't tell you if she could possibly have the tov or not. The tov whites and pws can be difficult to tell sometimes. Sometimes it's plain as day and other times you can't tell at all until they produce a tov kit.

Why don't you post your chins in natural lighting so we have a better idea on what they look like.
 
Here is mom and dad...

OK I just took them all outside for pics...It is getting dark here as a storm is coming but this should help. I'll load pics 2 at a time. Please ignore the trampoline box as these were quickie shots...
 

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they have only produced a single kit twice in 3 years could this be because of the TOV lethal factor issue?
Yes, this is normally what happens to Tov x Tov crosses. Same with white x white crosses.

Edited to say that there is no lethal factors in the pair you just posted. The one on the left is a Hetero Beige, and the one on the right is a pinkwhite that may be Tov if it has ever thrown a velvet kit.

Likely the slow littering is due to age. They are very nice looking chins.
 
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The female looks like a hetero beige to me - not a brown velvet. The PW does not appear to have TOV - but whites can be tricky.

I think she is having only one kit per litter because that is what she is genetically predisposed to have. That is entirely normal for some females and preferential for some breeders to get one good sized kit rather than 3 or 4 smaller kits all fighting for limited milk.

I would also add that physically in photos at least they appear healthy but I would be leary of breeding chins without pedigrees (JMPO).
 
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Last but not least Bo & Gordon...

I feel dumb about not catching the fact that mom is a brown velvet till now. Sat. night I didn't get home till late and all I was thinking about was getting everyone settled into bed. Since then I have cleaned each piece of their Ferret Nation piece by piece as it was crusty. Finally today I got all of their stuff put away and actually had a chance to just sit and admire them and then it hit me wait a minute she isn't a beige like the guy said she is a BV...I felt dumb...

Ok maybe I am wrong....oh jeez YES I AM A NEWBIE can you tell???? LOL Now I feel even more dumb...This forum is to learn from anyway right..? Chalking this one up to experience...

As far as their pedigrees go I am hoping to find out who bred them which is another reason for me wanting to post this. What I know is they were supposedly bought from a reputable breeder in OH. The guy and his girlfriend bought them as pets from someone who apparently had a lot of breeding chins in her basement. This would have happened about 3 1/2 years ago. I live in Pittsburgh and I drove 3 hours away to get them in Akron, OH. So if this sounds familiar to any of you OH breeders by all means please let me know. Thanks!

I also wanted to add that ALL of my other chins that are intended for breeding do have pedigrees...
 

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If it is a true pedigree it should have a brand on it, you can look up the brand. Brands are "codes" up to 4 letters, my brand is RVN for example.
 
Any Joe Schmoe can pair a male and female and call themselves a breeder ;) What is important is quality both appearance and health. What is your goal in keeping them together if they are not pedigreed? While all animals do look healthy and well cared for, anyone will tell you the best way to know what their faults and strengths are (IE-their quality) would be to have them evaluated and even then you won't know what is in their genetic health background. The parents are indeed a beige and a pw (possibly HBPW) With any white TOV can be hard to tell unless they produce a clearly TOV kit. Likewise, as mentioned...they're not breeding machines. Some chins produce a kit a year (or less) and others produce 2-6 kits per year.

Finally, as far as finding out who the breeder was, that'd be a real piece of luck. It's been so long that dozens of breeders have went out of the business. So even looking at a current list of who is breeding in OH that wouldn't be of much help. Furthermore, if they were truly reputable the guy should be able to furnish some sort of name or exact location. I have a few dozen chins in the chin room right now and can tell you were every single one came from let alone a small owner who only had a few chins to keep track of. He could've easily been lying about how he obtained the chinchillas. Maybe not, but without any background, especially genetically...and not being terribly experienced in chinchilla qualities the forum would generally agree that the parents should be separated and marked pet only. Even the chins you have pedigrees on you should seek the advice of an experienced breeder in pairing...and even THEN they really can't help over the net. You just cannot tell specific qualities over the internet.
 
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Don't worry I did get the advice and opinions of the quality breeders I got them from. 2 of my males I purchased directly from Ralph Shoots, another 3 of my chins directly from Ryerson and another 6 from CheChinchillas. None of those were pet quality and definitely not pet price for that matter either. As far as these 4 go yes I think it is a shot in the dark trying to find their breeder but hey you'll never know till you try. They are nice looking animals that I think at the least could contribute some nice attributes (size for one) to my breeding program.
 
She is a hetro beige. He is a pink white. With whites its very hard to tell if they are tov or not without breeding. If th chins don't have pedigrees they should not be bred. There is no way t know who bred them. Breeders have several litters every year. So even if you know the breeder how are you to identify which of the 40 beige female kits were born that year? I would seporate them and keep them as pets.
 
That's a great start, getting the advice from the breeders you purchase from. Those are some highly respected breeders and I'm sure they've given you a good start.

That said, as mentioned, most will recommend unpairig the two rescues you got without pedigrees. No need to breed unpedigreed animals when you've done a good job getting quality pedigreed animals and the advice of their breeders ;) the two chinchillas in question could not be easily identified by their breeder even if the gentleman gave you their names. They have no really distinguishing marks. Enjoy them as pets but do learn as much as possible about genetics anyway. This thread was a good way to learn a bit about genetics.
 
I'm kind of conserned that you got such a large amount of chins in a relatively short time with the intent to breed, but you are unable to tell basic colors apart. I would put the breeding on hold till you do a bit more research.
 
Touche' on my bad...I own that! As far as research, education and learning MY FRIENDS DAT BE WHY I AM HERE!!!! I have 2 other beige females who aren't darker on top like this momma is. That and also the fact that they have only ever produced 2 kits caused me to stop and try to think logically about this hence my initial assumption about the TOV issue. I obviously made an error about her color but I will pat myself on the back for looking at the big picture and trying to consider various aspects of the situation and to try (again being new) my best (whther it be correctly or incorrectly) to assess the situation logically. So boo for me never paying attention to a BV in person before yay for me trying to learn and figure things out thinking TOV (albeit mistakenly) just might actually having something to do with it. It's ok my skin is thick but I am not going anywhere so the bunches of chins so soon is a mute point. I like to learn by doing...so doing the chin thing YES Ma'am!
 
So how do you know if the original breeder did not get rid of these chins to the pet people because there was malo in the lines? Its just not worth injecting these chins into your existing known lines.
 
So how do you know if the original breeder did not get rid of these chins to the pet people because there was malo in the lines? Its just not worth injecting these chins into your existing known lines.

Agreed. If you're going to buy chins with the intent to breed responsibly, you should go directly to the breeder IMO, not pick up second hand chins. It is just too much of a gamble.
 
The biggest thing is: is it really worth breeding the two rescues, when you already have breeding quality animals, that you know the lineage of? Is it worth the risk of adding "unknowns" into the mix?

Perhaps if you showed them, and they placed very well its one thing..but until they are shown, evaluated and placed very well, I would keep them as pets. To me, it's not worth the risk.

For a pet person not involved in the online world, who doesn't know how to tell a reputable breeder he may think John Doe down the road may be "reputable" when infact john doe may have clean cages, but he is breeding fur chewers. Said pet person may think because they are clean and "loved" he is "reputable".

The other concern is those of us who have been here several years do see many people that go from 0 to 50 chins in a few months, drop off in 2 years...it happens all the time.
 
In all honesty what is the chance that they have malo??? Mom and dad are both approx. 3 1/2 and are perectly fine. Both boys perfectly fine also. If these guys weren't do gosh darn gorgeous I wouldn't even consider it but they are! That is the thing here. THEY ARE WORTHY OF BEING BRED!!! I have an unpedigreed male that is always going to remain just a pet why...because he is just not good enough quality and that is fine. Heck even if he had a pedigree I still wouldn't want to breed him. But these guys are an entirely different story they got the goods plain and simple.
I am sure there have been many who jumped into and out of the chinnie world rather quickly but I want to be taken as an individual and not stereotyped. I am trying my best to do this right. No one is perfect and I would hope that a forum such as this is there to offer support and guidance. So please just look at me as an individual. I am not "all of the others who have come and gone" I am Rhonda...
 
Perhaps you need to do more research on malo, it can be recessive and accumulative, which means parents can carry it and never show it, often for many generations before it shows up.
 
How many shows have you been to? Do you have a mentor? Do you know exactly what to look for in a "breeding" quality animal? Color, clarity, conformation, size, etc. They may look beautiful to an untrained eye, that certainly does not give the OK for them to be bred.
 
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