Evangelion
Member
:deadhorse2:
Finally get my chance to use this icon!
Finally get my chance to use this icon!
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Breeding and Guaranteed Chinnie Health
- Thread starter LovableFuzziezandCrawliez
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RavenousDeadlyZombieChins
Agreed, Claire...this happens in almost any thread involving genetics that Luke gets into and gets heated about.
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RMC
Guest
Why does it matter if mall. Is genetic or environmental? Exactly for the reasons I posted above. If you follow the advice posted by numerious people in this thread that Mall at a older age isn't genetic then you have the potential to end up with a situation like I described in the previous posts.
Read the very first post in this thread i posted. I haven't said that the breeder is at fault I even posted what my policy is reagarding mall.
To claim that what has happened in the past and what could happen in the future if the info. being put forward by some in this thread (that mall at a older age isn't possible /or probably) and is off topic and has nothing to do with the thread is IMHO nothing more then a smoke screen to deflect people from the issue at hand, That the claims made by some that mall. at a older age isn't genetic , Is irresponsible and those who actually subscribe to this theory will and have lead to heartache and a increase # of chins with Mall.
Read the very first post in this thread i posted. I haven't said that the breeder is at fault I even posted what my policy is reagarding mall.
To claim that what has happened in the past and what could happen in the future if the info. being put forward by some in this thread (that mall at a older age isn't possible /or probably) and is off topic and has nothing to do with the thread is IMHO nothing more then a smoke screen to deflect people from the issue at hand, That the claims made by some that mall. at a older age isn't genetic , Is irresponsible and those who actually subscribe to this theory will and have lead to heartache and a increase # of chins with Mall.
You're grasping at straws and making up your own arguments now, Luke - provide me with one post where anyone has said breed with chins that malocclude ....................... Nope, you can't - because not one person on this thread has said that. Not one! :duh:
:deadhorse:
R
RMC
Guest
Some one is grasping at straws and it sure isn't me. But atleast some are willing to defend their prior posts. It seems that some who stated in earlier post that mall. In older chins isn't likely genetic have now vanished of off the face of the earth. Or at least hiding under a rock instead of posting on this thread.
The issue is quite simple reardless of all the smoke screens and BS that some try to hide it behind.
Mall .will occur in any herd. The differance between a responsible breeder and one that is not is how they deal with it.
A responsible breeder will remove any chin suspected as having mall from breeding. Then see if parents and sibs are still in breeding and remove them from breeding then do research on the line to see if any others have had Mall. one who isn't responsible will say "oh the chin didn't show any signs of mall. until three years old so more then likely it isn't genetic so i have nothing to worry about. do no research into the line at all , leave parents and full sibs in breeding and then attribute any more mall. that occurs in the line as "not likely genetic" until the proof and number of chin produced from that line with mall. is overwellming. before admiting it is genetic.
I guess it depends on what postion you wish to take with mall. from a breeding point of view. Position one:any mall. in the line will be assumed genetic until proven other wise. and any reports of mall. within a line will be researched extensively and actions will be taken to insure it doesn't reoccur.
Position number two. Any chin with mall. is assumed to be environmental until proven genetic and no further research or action is needed.
Btw Many have offered much smoke and mirrors but no one has yet to provide a single shread of evidence to support the claim that mall. at a older age is not genetic.
The issue is quite simple reardless of all the smoke screens and BS that some try to hide it behind.
Mall .will occur in any herd. The differance between a responsible breeder and one that is not is how they deal with it.
A responsible breeder will remove any chin suspected as having mall from breeding. Then see if parents and sibs are still in breeding and remove them from breeding then do research on the line to see if any others have had Mall. one who isn't responsible will say "oh the chin didn't show any signs of mall. until three years old so more then likely it isn't genetic so i have nothing to worry about. do no research into the line at all , leave parents and full sibs in breeding and then attribute any more mall. that occurs in the line as "not likely genetic" until the proof and number of chin produced from that line with mall. is overwellming. before admiting it is genetic.
I guess it depends on what postion you wish to take with mall. from a breeding point of view. Position one:any mall. in the line will be assumed genetic until proven other wise. and any reports of mall. within a line will be researched extensively and actions will be taken to insure it doesn't reoccur.
Position number two. Any chin with mall. is assumed to be environmental until proven genetic and no further research or action is needed.
Btw Many have offered much smoke and mirrors but no one has yet to provide a single shread of evidence to support the claim that mall. at a older age is not genetic.
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Sheri
Guest
Huh I started reading this thread from the beginning and have found NO WHERE that anyone said a chin with maloclusion should continue to breed. NO MATTER WHAT THE AGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Carol~Anne
Guest
I'm trying to follow this thread as best as I can and I do see that some people, if not quite a few 'would' breed chinchillas that have maloccluded (sp?) if they were older b/c they'd reason that their malocclusion was caused by environmental issues and not b/c of genetics. Am I following this correctly?
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Sheri
Guest
I don't know. That's not what I saw. But with all the "smoke screens", "Mirrors", glitter and anger all I can see at this point is no one is going to win and people are dropping out of it to let Luke argue with himself.
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Parkerspetchins
Guest
I saw ONE person who said he had a malocclusion case pop up in a chin at 10 months, didn't say whether he bred the chin but did say the siblings were bred. I definitely think that is a poor practice, but, not one other person has said anything remotely close to that fact that they would go ahead and breed a chin with malocclusion at any age it appears, not one. Can you please point me to where you see it, I feel like I must be going nutty!
There was a National chinchilla show this weekend, otherwise I think quite a few of the people being called out as "hiding" would be responding here and I think it's quite rude for Luke to be taunting them when they are quite unaware what is even happening in this thread.
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Silverrose
Chinnie kisses!
I don't see anywhere where someone claimed maloclussion at an older age wasn't genetic. It may in fact be. However, the likelihood that it is entirely genetic will probably decrease as the animal ages. The actual presence of maloclussion appearing as a chin ages may be in fact genetic as well. But it may also be a combination of many factors (even Lauridsen claims this). I mean, it is just common sense. As something ages, animal, vegetable, human, whatever, stuff goes wrong, stuff breaks down, and illness and diseases they were once healthy against, they become more prone to. All the studies that are being thrown out there are all well and valid, whether it be an actual scientific method, or plain old observational skills. But the point is, is that all of the information available at this point it time is still inconclusive, until some great chinchilla maloclussion study is carried out.
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Carol~Anne
Guest
It started off with someone complaining that their six-year-old chin that she wanted to breed was diagnosed with malocclusion and she was upset.
Then a bunch of people posted that it was more than likely caused by environmental factors rather than genetics b/c of the age of the chinchilla, so it wasn't that big of a deal. I'm talking about the first twenty posts or so.
That's where I'm getting slightly confused b/c all the posts about it being environmental b/c of the age factor makes me think/assume that there are people out there that are fine with keeping older maloccluders in their lines b/c they believe it was not caused by genetics b/c of the age factor.
Then it took a turn to breeders selling only their second-best-or-less chins and then back to malocclusion again. I really am trying to understand all of this.
Then a bunch of people posted that it was more than likely caused by environmental factors rather than genetics b/c of the age of the chinchilla, so it wasn't that big of a deal. I'm talking about the first twenty posts or so.
That's where I'm getting slightly confused b/c all the posts about it being environmental b/c of the age factor makes me think/assume that there are people out there that are fine with keeping older maloccluders in their lines b/c they believe it was not caused by genetics b/c of the age factor.
Then it took a turn to breeders selling only their second-best-or-less chins and then back to malocclusion again. I really am trying to understand all of this.
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RMC
Guest
Posts # 7,8,9,14,19 all say that either mall. isn't genetic or that it isn't likely to be genetic at a older age.
The question isn't wether or not to bred a chin that has mall. the question is what is the responsible thing to do when a chin develops mall at any age (young or old). as far as what happens with the rest of the line .Is it kept in breeding? What about mom and dad and any full sibs of the chin? What about the offspring from the chin?
If the mall is only environemntal then the opinion that nothing needs to be done could be seen as a responsible opinion.
If the Mall. is genetic or even has the potential to be genetic then that opinion is no longer a responsible one.
So wether or not mall. is genetic or not something that should be taken lightly. IMHO Mall. has been proven that at least many cases are genetic. and to make sure to limit it's spread then cases of mall. should be considered genetic and at least some investgation of the line needs to be done .
Another point that was made elsewhere .I thought was very good as well to help limit the number of chins with mall. At least some long time breeder screen their chins for "bumps" on the lower jaw and will not place a animal in breeding if it has "bumps" on the bottom jaw. Many believe that you can identify a chin with Genetic mall. much earlier this way . And therefor reduce the number of potential animals being produced with mall.
If you look at the pics of skulls of chins with mall. in "Basic Genetics and History of Mutation Chinchillas" This screening makes sense and you can visually see the differance in chins with mall. and those without it.
Makes you wonder how much lower the incidence of mall. would be if these screening process was used by all before placing chins into breeding. and then rescreening any of the line of a chin that developed mall.
The question isn't wether or not to bred a chin that has mall. the question is what is the responsible thing to do when a chin develops mall at any age (young or old). as far as what happens with the rest of the line .Is it kept in breeding? What about mom and dad and any full sibs of the chin? What about the offspring from the chin?
If the mall is only environemntal then the opinion that nothing needs to be done could be seen as a responsible opinion.
If the Mall. is genetic or even has the potential to be genetic then that opinion is no longer a responsible one.
So wether or not mall. is genetic or not something that should be taken lightly. IMHO Mall. has been proven that at least many cases are genetic. and to make sure to limit it's spread then cases of mall. should be considered genetic and at least some investgation of the line needs to be done .
Another point that was made elsewhere .I thought was very good as well to help limit the number of chins with mall. At least some long time breeder screen their chins for "bumps" on the lower jaw and will not place a animal in breeding if it has "bumps" on the bottom jaw. Many believe that you can identify a chin with Genetic mall. much earlier this way . And therefor reduce the number of potential animals being produced with mall.
If you look at the pics of skulls of chins with mall. in "Basic Genetics and History of Mutation Chinchillas" This screening makes sense and you can visually see the differance in chins with mall. and those without it.
Makes you wonder how much lower the incidence of mall. would be if these screening process was used by all before placing chins into breeding. and then rescreening any of the line of a chin that developed mall.
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Parkerspetchins
Guest
Yes, I think you are making assumptions. The point is that it is unfair for the OP to be upset with the breeder at this point. There is no way for the breeder to know it was going to happen. All of the breeders that chimed in agreed that pulling it was best and letting the original breeder know. Nearly all of them say that. I don't know why you would assume because they said it may not be genetic, which it may not be, no surprise there, the best vets say there is no way to know, that that means they condone breeding the chin. That is a faulty assumption IMO. Just because I said it may not be genetic since that is what I have been told myself about my own chinchilla by my excellent vet, it doesn't mean I think she should breed it. No way, it should never be bred. I also don't think the original breeder owes her anything, since there is no way of knowing whether it is environmental or not and that is the point of the thread originally, her anger over the breeder selling her a chin that developed malocclusion...
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Sheri
Guest
Luke
Does it say anything as to at what point the "bumps" can be felt? I agree if that is a possible way to spot this early it should be used. I was told of this way of checking in yearling and older from the get go but was wondering how much younger it may be a sign.
Does it say anything as to at what point the "bumps" can be felt? I agree if that is a possible way to spot this early it should be used. I was told of this way of checking in yearling and older from the get go but was wondering how much younger it may be a sign.
By the time bumps can be felt, it's very advanced.
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Sheri
Guest
OK Thank you. I must have misunderstood.
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RMC
Guest
Not according to what I have been told by those who actually practice the screning. It can be identified far earlier then the visible symtoms are seen. My understanding that these bumps can be felt months before any other symptoms are present.
I am not exactly sure how early these bumps can be felt .But since many put their chins in breeding begining at around 9 months I believe that in at least some cases they can be felt then. But that doesn't mean they can't test ok at that age and not develop them later on. That is why i suggested rescreening of any chins with in a line where a chin has mall.
I have never claimed that anyone stated a chin with mall. should be bred . what I have stated over and over is that responsible breeders should examine and remove chins from a line that a chin developed or even suspected of genetic mall.
And it is not responsible to claim that mall. at a older age is environmental/not likely to be genetic. as such a philosophy can will and has lead to higher rate of mall. occuring.
Because breeders will not take the nessicary actions and remove the parents ands sibs ect from breeding as should be done in the case of genetic or suspected genetic mall.
I am not exactly sure how early these bumps can be felt .But since many put their chins in breeding begining at around 9 months I believe that in at least some cases they can be felt then. But that doesn't mean they can't test ok at that age and not develop them later on. That is why i suggested rescreening of any chins with in a line where a chin has mall.
I have never claimed that anyone stated a chin with mall. should be bred . what I have stated over and over is that responsible breeders should examine and remove chins from a line that a chin developed or even suspected of genetic mall.
And it is not responsible to claim that mall. at a older age is environmental/not likely to be genetic. as such a philosophy can will and has lead to higher rate of mall. occuring.
Because breeders will not take the nessicary actions and remove the parents ands sibs ect from breeding as should be done in the case of genetic or suspected genetic mall.
Not necessarily. I had a chin that developed odd bumps early and lived several more years. That would be my lovely Opal in my sig. that had to be put down recently. I know another chinchilla owner that this happened to also. It pays to check the jawlines of all your chinchillas and to stay familiar with what is normal and what isn't
Feeling bumps on the lower jaw indicates root abruption - the damage is already done in reality. Also it does not help if the upper roots are affected so it is only a partial indicator anyway. Lower bumps may not appear even when the upper roots are elongating.
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