Breeding and Guaranteed Chinnie Health

[Sheri]

Wow, so much to comment on here.

First off, "reputable" breeders don't pull males from breeding unless there is a reason, so either the breeder was not as reputable as you thought, or the animals was not what you thought in the first place.



First off let me say I think this statement is unfair to "reputable" breeders. I know a few and they pull males and females from breeding at that age and a couple even younger for a vaiety of reasons that are not health related.

I personally have 1 bloodline in my herd that I have pulled a male from breeding. He is 2. I pulled him due to the fact that I felt I had enough of that bloodline in breeding.

I know of another breeder who decided to get out of breeding a particular mutation and sold off breeders of that mutation.

Does that make either of us "disreputable"? Not in my book.

 

[Cuddlebug]

I have the same policy. I have, however, set a time limit of 30 days on it. I sign it, the buyer signs it, it gets dated and each of us keeps a copy.

 

[Chingal]

Finally, my policy on chinchillas is that if a person takes a chin from me home and it develops a condition that a liscensed vet will say is either definitely genetic OR definitely occured while in my care THEN I will replace/refund.

My policy is relatively the same and yes if the day ever came I would stand behind the animal I bred 100% even if the person was not being wholeheartedly truthful. I would probably have my own vet examine the animal upon its demise or return to me alive. Because I would need to be very confident of a genetic defect since if it was a genetic problem I would have to pull a majority of my herd because I have only a few distinct bloodlines I work with and very few purchased outcrosses in my herd.

 

[Riven]

I agree with Sheri.

I handle guarantees on a case by case deal usually. Without testing the genes themselves, you can not say something is genetic.

 

[shuboyje]

This is getting off topic, and if mods want to split and move it that is fine, but I still stand by my claim. As always, I'm not one to sugar coat things. Putting a male in breeding is something a breeder should approach with the utmost consideration. There are very few reasons that a male should be taken out of breeding that would leave him desirable for other breeders IF the original breeder was making proper decisions in the first place. That does not mean the situation does not arise, but it is very rare IMHO.

You mention having too much of a bloodline in breeding. Were more animals from that line put in breeding after the particular animals? And when it came time to lessen that lines influence in the herd why was that particular animal chosen? It certainly wasn't because he was the best producer now was it? That would make no sense.

You also mention breeders getting out of certain mutations. How likely do you think it is for a breeder to "get out" of a mutation they are having success with? If they have good bloodlines in those mutations and if the offspring from those pairings are marketable it isn't very likely. Again rare situations arise, but more times then not it is a sign of a breeder cutting their loses on something that isn't working out for one reason or another.

Anybody who knows me a bit knows I strongly feel that whenever you are buying an animal you are buying second best, because the wonderful part about being a breeder is you keep the best and put them back into your herd. I stand by that in this situation also, buying animals that have been pulled out of breeding, especially males, is buying damaged goods. If those animals where producing like the breeder expected them too the day they went in they would not be sold, UNLESS the breeder made poor decisions when putting them in breeding which also makes me question using animals out of their herd.

Wow, so much to comment on here.

First off, "reputable" breeders don't pull males from breeding unless there is a reason, so either the breeder was not as reputable as you thought, or the animals was not what you thought in the first place.



First off let me say I think this statement is unfair to "reputable" breeders. I know a few and they pull males and females from breeding at that age and a couple even younger for a vaiety of reasons that are not health related.

I personally have 1 bloodline in my herd that I have pulled a male from breeding. He is 2. I pulled him due to the fact that I felt I had enough of that bloodline in breeding.

I know of another breeder who decided to get out of breeding a particular mutation and sold off breeders of that mutation.

Does that make either of us "disreputable"? Not in my book.

 

[Riven]

I just pulled an awesome male out of breeding and am trading him for a female. Why? He's only given me one litter.. a year ago! The original breeders are going to give him a go, and see what they get. Other than that, I rarely pull a male unless I'm putting in something better, or I'm totally saturated with those lines, but in that case, if his offspring is better than he is, then you should use them to replace him, or sell them and keep him.

I agree in some aspects of " second best" but I know there are cases, especially with males, that you end up with some awesome animals that you could and would use, but don't have enough females. That just doesn't happen with females though, you always make room for a good female!

 

[MerrittChinchillas]

I agree with Jeff on a couple of things he said. The breeder pulled the animal for a reason. You take a chance when you buy an animal that has been taken out of breeding for whatever reason. I see here and on other forums people wanting proven breeders, that to me means old breeders, in other words what we call in our herd culls, these animals are usually pelted and not passed on to someone else. If we cull one it is for a reason, we have on occasion either given or sold old breeders to someone we thought they might help, but with the express understanding of no guarantees. We no longer do this as we have had people we gave them to or sold at a very low cost to turn around and sell them. They are pelted in our herd. It isn't worth our reputation to do this again. I don't think the breeder owes anything to the buyer. I do think she should make them aware of the problem though.
Still disagree with you on the fact of when you buy animals you are getting second best though Jeff.

 

[lilchinchilla]

I can't speak personally for the breeder, but I do believe if it is the breeder I think of, they got out of the mutation and some other mutations they were breeding too, because they were not doing well financially at the time and not able to keep with as many chins as they had, due to moving to another place.

I recall them having quite a bit of debt(which really is no one's business but their own - but since everyone is picking at that the breeder had to have "some reason" to let go of a breeding chin, I might as well say...), and in a bad situation at the time for living arrangements. And no(just in case you're wondering), the breeder isn't me.

As for myself, I've let go of some breeding chins, sometimes because they just do not fit in my herd at the time, or in some cases had to downsize due to moving to a smaller place, like last year. It didn't mean the chins I sold were poor quality or not good(when they come with ribbons and placed first or better at a show, they aren't poor quality.), just I had to move and couldn't take the whole herd with me.

When you're moving to a smaller place, you can't take 100+ chins with you, when you only got room for 30 - 50...

 

[Godins Chinchillas]

"Anybody who knows me a bit knows I strongly feel that whenever you are buying an animal you are buying second best"

I hope that's not always the case. I was breeding for 5 years, took a break, and now paying top dollar (meaning $300+) for standards to start back up. I would sure hope I am not getting second best. That would really really suck.

 

[TillyChinchilla]

It was discussed in another thread that no breeder is going to sell you their best animals. You are likely getting top show quality - but I doubt you are getting "the BEST". There are always improvements to be made to an animal.

Now seems like kind of an off time to be buying so much expensive stock - but that is a totally different thread.

 

[shuboyje]

Don't get me wrong, second best can still be some great animals, especially males, but it is to your benefit to understand the animals you are buying are not being used by the breeder in their herd for a reason, and it is even more in your benefit to find out why. The only way to get the best animals is to buy the whole herd, but that too is another thread all together.

edited to add:
lot's of the off topic posts here are covered in this thread...
http://www.chins-n-hedgies.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1503

"Anybody who knows me a bit knows I strongly feel that whenever you are buying an animal you are buying second best"

I hope that's not always the case. I was breeding for 5 years, took a break, and now paying top dollar (meaning $300+) for standards to start back up. I would sure hope I am not getting second best. That would really really suck.

 

[Megan]

"Anybody who knows me a bit knows I strongly feel that whenever you are buying an animal you are buying second best"

I hope that's not always the case. I was breeding for 5 years, took a break, and now paying top dollar (meaning $300+) for standards to start back up. I would sure hope I am not getting second best. That would really really suck.

I cannot speak for jeff, but when I see his comments about buying 2nd best this is the thought that always pops into my head:

When we sell an animal we are selling it for one reason or another. "Don't have room for ___ chin", "Don't need anymore ___", "Too many of the line" etc.

However, if the animal really was "the best" we've produced, how many people would honestly sell it? Granted with a herd producing thousands of kits a year, your gonna find some extremely nice animals forsale...but there is always a reason why they didn't keep it. They had better, that they already kept? Who knows..but there is *some* reason that animal isn't being kept by a breeder to put back into their OWN herds.

 

[Chingal]

While I agree to a point of second best and rarely buy females for my herd because as was said everyone always needs females, but I can say I have sold some of my very best (only to kick myself later" because I had to downsize during my divorce or because I just did not have enough room to keep them. Yes I have a line that very few get babies out of anymore because everyone I have sold in the past I regretted but I would still llet a few go because I am small and cannot keep them all plus I believe if I do sell some of my best to help other breeders build their herd then that is a good thing for all chinchillas. I just make sure the best goes to people who really know what they are doing.
I know a couple folks on here who have sold me top notch chinchillas and I doubt they were their seond best

 

[LovableFuzziezandCrawliez]

I know a couple folks on here who have sold me top notch chinchillas and I doubt they were their seond best

Exactly, I don't really feel comfortable with the overall generalization that every breeder has some ulterior motive for selling some of their stock.

Granted in most cases, those culled MAY be culled due to some inferior qualities in the opinion of that particular breeder (Could be genetic issues, could be color issues, etc) .

HOWEVER, it is important not to overlook that sometimes they are simply selling GOOD QUALITY chinchillas for other reasons.

ie: financial problems, moving, divorce, general quitting of breeding etc etc.

You can't assume that all breeding quality chinchillas being sold are inferior.

 

[RMC]

IMHO You may not be able to assume that all breeding quality chins for sale are not quality animals. But if you can't at least admit that there is a reason why they are being sold. And if the person is keeping ANY breeding chins. They are keeping their best breeding animals then you are only fooling your self.
If they had a single male in breeding and sold you a male for breeding you got their second best. They would be a fool to knowingly sell their very best animal.
Their is a huge differance between a "good quality " chinchilla and the the very best quality chinchilla.
For those that believe they are buying The very best quality animals that are produced by that breeder, I have some ocean front property" Just down the road from my house that I must sell due to a down turn in the economy.

 

[Megan]

Again.. If someone is selling 50% of their herd, and keeping the remainder 50%.. Who are they keeping? 9 times out of 10, the animals they feel are their best.

I can tell you straight out, that if I was reducing my breeding herd I would keep my best animals overall. Best producers, best quality. The remaining animals would be sold. Are they good quality? You bet. Did I pay an arm and a leg for them ? Most. Would they benefit a breeding herd? Most likely, depending on who is buying. Are they my best? Nope, my best is what I'd be keeping back.

I think the point people are missing is:While you can get good quality animals, in the end they were culled for a REASON. and did not make the breeders ultimate cut. Is it bad? No. you can get some **** awesome animals from breeders. However, you bet they held onto what THEY thought were there best animals. I have no problem with the animals I bought, but I also understand they were sold for a reason. They didn't make the breeders cut. However, they are doing what I want for my herd--improving it which is what is important.


Now, onto the actual topic of the thread at hand: We cannot guarentee that a chinchilla will be free of genetic problems. We CAN guarentee that the animal was in good health when it left(health cert.) but there is no way to know what may or may not pop up in the future. Thats why knowing your animals is very important, and knowing your lines. It will decrease the chance of running into a problem..but one time or another, we'll all run into that problem sooner or later. I do not think after 6 years a breeder should be held responsible for teeth problems. 1 year? a few months--yes most likely a genetic problem. But 6 years old in several different homes--you have no idea what accidents may have happend. I've heard of Malo happening because an animal was dropped, and it messed up the teeth.

 

[Sheri]

I agree with most of what is being said. My problem was with the "Reputable breeder" statement that was made. I don't think everyone who pulls a chin out of breeding and sells it for some reason is not a reputable breeder. Thats where I guess I took offense. I apologize if I hurt feelings or offended anyone.

 

[Chingal]

For those that believe they are buying The very best quality animals that are produced by that breeder, I have some ocean front property" Just down the road from my house that I must sell due to a down turn in the economy.

THen I geuss I need to inquire about that property!:laughitup:

Because I can say that Yes I sold some of my best and top show winners when it came to my divorce and finding a home for my kids the higher prices I could get for my best waas what I needed, I figured I can always breed more and also I still maybe foolishly believe that I cannot keep everything I only have so much room and if I have parents that can give me consistantly awesome babies I do let a precious few of what I consider my finest go to other breeders as I want to help other people breed good chinchillas. Again maybe I am foolish but I still believe in do unto others.

 

[Twilight Chinchillas]

I have parents that can give me consistantly awesome babies I do let a precious few of what I consider my finest go to other breeders as I want to help other people breed good chinchillas. Again maybe I am foolish but I still believe in do unto others.

I've done this when I was breeding birds. Life does happen and there isn't always a motive to sell someone second best, sometimes you can get top quality. For me it was a stressful time in my life with raising an autistic son. I was over worked, stressed, and I let some of my best breeders go. Years later things are more balanced, and now my focus is on Chinchillas. Less stress and work!
I do wish more people would follow the rule of do unto others....
I do like a good debate, but also respect the differences of opinion even if it's not my own.

 

[RMC]

I stand by my previous statement. If a individual kept a single animal and you purchased from them then you purchased second best.
This thread is about breeding, shows are about phenotypes many times they aren't the same thing. A great phenotype from questionable genetics ,or one that is the result of a totally outcross and would be a outcross to any thing that he is mated to is not a good breeding tool.
As I have said many times before. I put animals into breeding, Not trophy's or ribbons.