Bonded Pair - Dom attacked by sub :o[ Worried!

[Stackie]

Also, ask the e-vet to give him some sub-q fluids. They aren't that hard to give and can really help bring an animal around.

 

[Dusty Foot Prints]

Sounds like a very scary situation. I really hope your chin will be ok. :hearts:

 

[tunes]

But my vet? His wife owns 12 chins!
He can't be all that stupid!

I know people who own 300 chins that I would give a pelt to. Owning chins does not make one knowledgeable. Having DVM after your name doesn't either.

Steroids can cause massive ulcers to form in your chin's stomach and intestinal lining, which can then result in bleeding ulcers and death. Whether your vet has chins or not, he's wrong. I've been there. I went to the wrong vet, he prescribed steroids, my girl died. On necropsy, she was full of bleeding ulcers. She had a respiratory infection. Respiratory infections do not result in bleeding ulcers. The steroid shot is what killed her.

As to vets being all knowledgeable, please, don't ever assume that. I have 350 chins. When I go to the vet we discuss illnesses and courses of treatment, because as my vet says, "you most likely know much more about this than I do." You'll find that to be true with quite a few forum members here. Right off the top of my head as an example, if I had a tooth issue, you can bet I'd go to Dawn to find out what's going on.

I'm going to reiterate what others have said. Deep calming breaths, relax a little bit. A huge issue with animals is your body language and behavior. If you're stressed out and worried and spazzing around him, he's going to pick up on that. Dogs, cats, horses, rats, chins - any animal will do the same thing. So even if you feel like panicking, try not to. Just be calm and do what needs done.

 

[menagerie]

Look, I'm sure you are very nice & knowledgeable and are trying to help, but guilt is not nice! I read these boards, I know my fair share and If I don't know something I'll ask. I really shouldn't be expected to know if you think or Dr. Joe Schmo from St. Louis doesn't approve of another vets choice? It's not like I went in there and demanded a steroid shot? And It's not like I'm sitting here thinking, oh well fur ball just die!

I'm really trying my VERY best to do the right thing for him ... :cry3:

Sorry if I sound mean, but it's been a long couple of days & I took a personal offense to that ...

People were not telling you about the steroid to be mean, nor were they being judgmental of your actions. They were informing you, so that you don't let your chin be given steroids again in the future. What's done is done and you can't change what the vet did, but it could save you heartache in the future. Steroids do not cause ulcers in 100% of chin patients, but IMHO it's not worth the risk that your chin will be one that does and dies. People here didn't start out knowing everything there is to know about chins. We all had a learning curve and have learned a lot from each other.

 

[Hotflats]

Well ... the vet said he looked OK.

Said there was a slight scratch above the eye nothing IN the eye, all boo-boo's were scabbed with no sign of infection. No punctured lung, no broken bones, no other signs of injury.

She did say that she probably would have treated him with the shot as well, to bring him out of the severe shock that he was in. I did question IT and her experience with Chinchilla's. She mentioned the controversy of treating a chin with Steroids, and said that in that specific case it was the best call to make. Not ordinary course though. She said that my vet was one of the few AND qualified exotic vets who regularly see chinchillas in this area.

To be safe, she gave him fluids, re-treated his scrapes, gave him an antibiotic and recommended against pain meds.

She believed that because chins have such exceptional memories she thinks he is emotionally stressed over the fight and mourning the loss of his friend and normal routine. She asked if I could place him in view of Charlie, thinking it might help.

I left with the typical, keep an eye on him and make a follow up appt with your vet on Monday morning! :banghead:

Now Charlie is sulking in the cage missing Zorro ... should have though about that BEFORE you beat the crap out of him! :impatient:

Is it really true that they'll never be friends again?

Do you think that putting the center divider is what set them off fighting over "territory"?

Sigh ... I need a bottle of wine!

 

[Megan]

Stackie-

I had a male get torn up by one of his females. He was very shocky, went totally off his fed etc. I never used pain medication in him. He was kept warm, hand fed critical care and life line. I simply made sure that I treated his wounds, kept everything very clean, let him rest and keep him fed/watered. He made a full recovery. You'd never be able to tell who he was in my room. Had female again who I thought I was going to loose that I was able to nurse back to health doing the same. Other then a scar that has never regrown fur between her eyes, she made a full recovery as well.

Other then a major surgery I really wouldn't use pain medications. Even after surgery, I would do it the day of surgery, and perhaps the following day and then cut out the pain meds. Same thing I do with any of the dogs/cats that have had surgery.


That said, with the fight as bad as it was I would not introduce them again. Perhaps supervised play time eventually, but never would I trust them to be alone with each other again when you aren't there. Chins do fine when kept alone .

 

[Hotflats]

Thanks Megan ... that sure gives one hope! <3

I gave him critical care and he just gobbled it up!
I can only take it as a good sign! He's usually the piggy!

~Chris~

 

[starleomach]

I have a female here now I found, bloody and scalped who then got abscesses up and down her back during recovery, she was in shock when I found her. she was treated by being kept warm, cleaned up and antibiotics...she got abscesses any way. Today she is doing fine. Still putting the weight back on and is missing both her ears and a chunk of her nose that will never come back but she is ok. four months ago

I had another female a month ago that got 6 bites..none that severe, same treatment she didn't go into shock mostly she had lost fur no major injuries...she died despite proper treatment. You just never know all you can do is try your best.

And no it is not likely they will go back together.

As for the vets I have had vets kill my chinchillas with their "expert advice" there are about 10 vets in the area that are "chinchilla experts" "have chinchillas" "have treated chinchillas" I trust 2 of them kind of.... I have better luck with a vet I go to who knows very little about chinchillas but listens to me. There are a lot of chinchilla "experts" that know little to nothing. Chinchillas are taught in half of a chapter at vet school and they are taught the same time as rabbits. I have gotten in arguments at vets about fresh fruits/veggies.

 

[Megan]

I have better luck with a vet I go to who knows very little about chinchillas but listens to me.

Isn't that the truth! We have two offices with "exotic vets". I refuse to use them unless I absolutely would need to. They think and act like they know it all, throw around that they have a "degree" and I am simply a 'young breeder'. (I'd think after 9 years of owning/breeding, countless information from long term-ranchers/breeders and daily contact I'd know something about my animals...vs someone who read about them in a text book, and works with them from time to time.)

Instead I use my normal dog/cat vet who also treats rabbits. She listens to me, we come up with a game plan and go with it. I trust her 100%, despite having very limited work with chins other then when she was interning. She is now treating other chins with good success.

 

[Hotflats]

I'll keep my fingers crossed and make sure I totally communicate with this vet to be sure we are on the same page!

Poor baby ... no ears?!?!? Breaks my heart!

 

[starleomach]

She doesn't even care at this point. I will get a picture of her. I wish I had taken one of her beat up would be good learning for others. I have to start remembering to do that

 

[Claire D]

On the use of pain medication in shocky chinchillas - many vets will not immediately use NSAIDs (Non-Steroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drugs - eg. Metacam, Rimadyl etc) in shocked animals due to the increased risk of gastric ulceration.

Please excuse me for putting this in simple terms but it may be useful to understand what happens to a chin in shock. I hope it is helpful.

When an animal goes into shock they pull all their energy into keeping the core of the body well supplied with blood/oxygen - that is why they become cold in their paws, ears etc - the body's natural defences have kicked in & they are "shutting down" (for want of a better phrase) the "unimportant" bits of the body; the bits of the body which are not essential to survival. The body puts effort into keeping the heart, lungs, brain, & kidneys working since these are essential to life.
A similar thing happens when a chin is anaesthetised for surgery - which is why they are put on a heat mat when they are being brought round from the anaesthetic. Basically they cannot control their body temperature & the body is in survival mode.

This is why it is very important to keep chins warm after a fight or any other kind of traumatic event.


The risk of gastric ulceration with NSAIDs is increased by:
- the use of corticosteroids
- hypovolaemic shock (decreased blood volume/flow in the body)
- dehydration
- disruption of the normal blood flow to the gut

Listed under the warnings/cautions for NSAIDs is also hypotension (low blood pressure).


A shocked chin will generally have 3 out of the 4 issues listed - low blood pressure, dehydration, & disruption of the normal blood flow to the gut .......

It is logical then, that giving NSAIDs to a chin in shock is considered too risky for many vets & that is why they will not use them initially - however, once the chin is out of shock & is stabilised, has received fluids, is warm, is responsive & is able to show a bit of interest in what is going on around it, then most vets will give pain relief if required.

IME the keys to immediate treatment of a shocked chin are warmth, subcut fluids, & very careful monitoring. Once the chin has been stabilised then it is important to get good pain relief, get the chin eating high fibre foods, assess & treat any wounds etc.


Having said all of that - chinchillas in pain can & do simply give up & die - I would imagine that those of us who have kept chins for a number of years will have seen examples of this & experienced the utter helplessness of watching a chin just die in front of our eyes - despite every possible care/treatment imaginable.

Adequate/appropriate pain relief is incredibly important for chinchillas, especially after any type of surgery, with tooth problems, or after any type of traumatic injury - the clinical decision to give pain relief is not always an easy one, especially in cases of shock - it is a case of weighing up the risks & then acting accordingly. Some vets will use alternative forms of pain relief (eg. opioids) if they think it is essential to help treat a shocked chin.......

 

[menagerie]

Thanks Claire, that was very informative. Everything with chins is a delicate balance.

To everyone else that feels that chins don't need pain meds, I beg to differ. If you were scalped to the degree that your chins have been, or had any surgery you'd sure as heck be demanding pain meds. Why should it be any different for animals?

 

[Claire D]

To everyone else that feels that chins don't need pain meds, I beg to differ. If you were scalped to the degree that your chins have been, or had any surgery you'd sure as heck be demanding pain meds. Why should it be any different for animals?

I just want to echo Meanie's post here - chinchillas hide pain to their detriment - they often don't show major signs until it is too late. It is really important to make sure chins have appropriate pain relief & I believe it is barbaric not to give it after surgery or following trauma - we would not allow it in humans so we should not allow it in chins.

I am cross posting this from CHINformative (original post here) - I hope it is helpful/interesting.

We all know that chinchillas, as prey animals, hide pain and illness to their detriment. However with careful and detailed observation of a chinchilla's behaviour, posture, and habits, pain and discomfort can be determined at an earlier stage.
What follows is a list of signs and smptoms which may indicate that a chinchilla is in pain or discomfort. If one or more signs are present then immediate veterinary assessment and intervention is necessary.

- Lack of Appetite and/or Decreased Food Intake - one of the first signs a chinchilla is ill. There are many possible reasons for lack of appetite so further observation and assessment will be necessary to determine the cause.

- Unusual Stillness - a chinchilla which is unusually quiet, withdrawn, or still for long periods of time may be in pain and should be checked for illness, especially if accompanied by other signs listed here.

- Abnormal Breathing Patterns - Breath holding, rapid or exaggerated breathing, or irregular breathing patterns may be associated with pain or discomfort. Other symptoms are usually present.

- Tooth Grinding - whilst tooth grinding is often associated with eating treats (especially sticky treats such as raisins) it can also be a sign of pain. If accompanied by other signs listed here further investigation must be carried out.

- Ears Held Down - Chinchillas sometimes sit or sleep with their ears held back/down. This can be perfectly normal for them (sleepy ears) however, if continued for long periods of time or accompanying any of the other signs listed, may be an indicator of pain.

- Ear Flicking - Chinchllas with tooth problems will often flick their ears whilst eating (pain from the tooth roots is referred up into the head, causing the ears to flick). If only one side of the mouth is affected then the corresponding ear may flick or both ears may flick. Can be very subtle and needs careful observation.

- Wincing - Similar to ear flicking. This can be subtle but wincing when eating or being touched in an area or when walking etc is a sign of pain/discomfort and should be investigated. The chinchilla will blink and lower it's head, shut its eyes and hunker down a little, or screw it's face up.

- Exaggerated Jaw Movements - This can be a sign of tooth problems or mouth pain. The lower jaw moves in an exaggerated manner whilst eating. Usually preceeds pawing at the mouth or drooling (slobbers or dribbling). Can be subtle and difficult to detect at first. Somtiems a chin will use exaggerated jaw movements when eating something particulalry tasty, sticky or sweet.

- Pawing at The Mouth and/or Drooling - These are signs of mouth pain, something unpleasant in the mouth, a foreign body in the mouth, or ingesting something toxic. Further investigation is necessary. Pawing at the mouth whilst eating is usually an indicator of mouth pain, especially when accompanied by drooling.

- Splayed Front Paws and "Hunkered Down"Position - Chinchillas experiencing pain will often display flattened front paws and thickened front leg muscles from throwing their weight forward. The splaying of the front paws may be temporary or permanent. Often associated with hind leg pain (the chincilla throws its weight onto its front paws to relieve pressure from the back legs and so ease pain/aches) but can also be an indicator of general pain or discomfort. The chinchilla looks "hunkered down". Often associated with older chins with arthritic joints.

- Clenched Paws - As opposed to the splayed paws to relieve pressure, a chinchilla with clenched paws may be experiencing pain anywhere in the body. This sign is often noted in chinchilla kits which are experiencing pain.

- Fidgeting or Restlessness - The chinchilla cannot settle. It moves from place to place and is unable to rest for more than a few seconds/minutes before moving again. Often accompanied by stretching or belly pressing. Can be subtle and involve just shifting slightly - may be one limb rather then the whole body. (e.g. lifting a hind limb slightly if it is achy due to arthritic changes).

- Abnormal Gait, Non-Weight bearing on a Limb, Holding a Limb Up - The chinchilla moves abnormally (runs "funny") or does not use one of its limbs - examples Sprains, twists, fractures, broken limbs.

- Head Tilt - Often associated with inner ear infection and/or pain.

- Belly Pressing or Stretching - the chinchilla rolls on the floor of the cage, stretches upwards repeatedly, sits and/or presses it's belly down to the floor of the cage/shelf etc. They may lie "pressed down" into the floor or shelf. Often associated with bloat or gastric stasis or generalised abdominal pain. This requires immediate veterinary intervention and must never be home treated.

- Squeaking, Whimpering, Screaming - This indicates severe pain when accompanied by one or more of the above signs. This requires immediate veterinary intervention and must never be home treated.

 

[Amy555]

I just came across this and I found it so helpful that I'm going to print it out and put it in my Chin Info binder I keep next to their cage. Thank you!