Bonded Pair - Dom attacked by sub :o[ Worried!

[Hotflats]

I feel just horrible [

I'll tell you a story first - a little history of the past few weeks that led to yesterday morning!


First, I adopted them the beginning of September from a nice girl who couldn't take them to her new apartment. They are a bonded & spoiled pair in a two story ferret nation. They transitioned here VERY well and seemed happy and healthy. ... grooming my daughter, giving kisses, allowing chin scratches, and making cute noises playing with their cube set during playtime.

3 weeks ago I put the center divider & ramps in it, so they would have more play room ... instead of having one tall cage. They never really seemed to jump around the cage and play till I put this in. They every night they would run up and down back and forth & it LOOKED like they were playing tag! Now I'm wondering if it was a hostile pursuit???????? Wondering if adding the middle shelf set them off?

Anyway Zorro is the dominate one, he nibbles off Charlies whiskers. Charlie Attacked Zorro ... I think he'd had enough!?!?!?!

Yesterday I was getting ready for work and could hear their normal a.m. bouncing around, one of them was making an odd grunt noise ... but there was nothing else going on. About 20 minutes later I hear crazy loud cage thrashing and screaming.

I run out of the bedroom to find the submissive one on top of zorro ... & fur is floating though the air. When I opened the cage I had to literally remove Charlie off of Zorro and there was Zorro NOT MOVING! I thought he was dead!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :cry3:

I picked him up and he was alive but nothing more than a limp noodle. Bloody behind both ears blood on his nose. I put him on a blanket and he TRIED to walk but just kept falling over :tantrum:

I rushed him to the vet and the Dr gave him a steroid(?) shot, he was up, walking slowly and seemed better. Nothing was broke! He told me he was in stress shock and the two would need to be separated forever. :hair:

I blocked the hole in the center of the cage and set them up for their divorce, 2 water bottles, two food dishes .... I'm so sad!

Zorro still isn't right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He's hiding in his tube, one eye is partly closed, he keeps pulling on his whiskers like there is something stuck, he'll drink and nibble a tiny bit at a rose hip, but he isn't eating, he's still REALLY lethargic, uber calm & walking VERY slow.

Is he still in shock? Is he depressed? Will this wear off and he'll come out of it?

I have critical care ... should I use it? How do I use it?

HELP!!!!!!! I need some advice! :cry3:

(attached is a picture of them together the night before!)

 

[Laurie]

Yes he is in shock! did the vet you took him to carefully look through all his fur for bits? Chin fights are very vicious. If it were me honestly I would be back at the vet. Zorro is in pain and needs pain meds. Chins can fight to the death so a fight involves bites and kicking--most likely Zorro is full of bruises. It's also possible he has a punctured lung--it has happened. The swelling eye can be from the injury he withstood from the fight.

It's obvious he is in pain he should be given pain meds. Also he NEEDS to eat, you need to get critical care into him asap and keep him eating. He needs your interaction today--you need to do to him what a mother chin would do even if he isn't a baby--he needs stimulation, caring, nurturing he needs to know he is not alone and loved and needs to know he has a reason to fight his shock and depression.

Lethargy in a chin is never a good sign and should be followed by a visit to the vet.

 

[Kelley]

How scary

If it was me I would be back at the vet with him.

I wonder if separating the cage caused them to define their territories?

I have only had chins for about 3yrs and from reading what everyone has said about males I personally would never put two together, just isn't worth it to me that there is the chance one will get hurt.

I have two females together in a FN and just got a male but he has a whole FN to himself and if I was to get another male later I would definetly separate them in the FN.

 

[Stackie]

First and foremost he needs to be brought out of shock or else he will most likely die. He needs warm sub-q fluids and he needs to be kept warm. Chins in shock can not regulate their body temperature and get cold very quickly. In addition to the sub-q's, he needs pain medication.

Subcutaneous fluids, pain medication, and warmth are his best bet of coming out of shock. Once he starts becoming more active, you will need to begin handfeeding him. He also needs to be on an antibiotic to guard from infection due to his open wounds.

You definitely need to get him back to a different more competent vet and get a full check over. Treat for the shock. Shave the areas where he has puncture wounds, have the vet listen to his lungs to be sure one isn't punctured, have a stain test done on the eye to make sure there isn't a scratch.

 

[Silverrose]

I will agree with stacey and laurie that your chin is in shock and needs to be treated for it immediately. I also wanted to point out that you my need to see another, more experienced vet, as you mentioned your chin was given a steroid shot?! I have no idea what made your vet think steroids were necessary for his ailment, and also steroids should NEVER be given to a chinchilla.

 

[Hotflats]

He did look him over pretty good, there are no punctures, just the "scalped" scraped behind the ears!

The shot he gave him is called Dexemethesone? (sp)
Here is what this site says about Chin shock
... http://www.chinchillas.org/raisinchins/health.html
(We have seen a condition in chinchillas that seems to be a type of stress shock. The chinchilla will not move much or seems to fall to the side. If your chinchilla is lethargic and acting odd, we advise a trip to the vet for a shot of Dexemethesone. This is a steroid that gets their metabolism going and should ease the symptoms of shock. It is sometimes necessary to administer a second shot, which your vet can send home with you.)

He said it would help ... he also told me to keep him calm and quiet ... He sees a lot of Chinchilla's. Only one in my area worth much. We were there with him for a quite a while, he even kept him there for observation for the day.

Yes, he shaved & treated the boo-boo's. Took an xray, nothing broken, no punctures ... he said everything looked good.

I just paged his service, so I'm waiting for him to get back to me. I will have to enquirer about pain med and I will go get my pack of critical care out and read the directions.

However he just ate a complete rose hip, and drank a boat load of water. He even tried to sneak past me to get out of the cage. I picked him up and he is warm, not hot ... and not shaking. I have a large fleece blanket over the top of the cage for extra warmth and peace. As I'm typing this, he is nibbling on an apple branch!

Maybe I'm just bugging him when he wants to sleep????
I though I should leave him alone? I didn't want to cause MORE shock ... especially during the day when he should be sleeping....

Thanks, I appreciate ALL your thoughts!

 

[Hotflats]

I wonder if separating the cage caused them to define their territories?

I wondered the SAME thing!

 

[Laurie]

If he truly is in shock the last thing you want to do is leave him alone. Chins hide their injuries well. If you are sure the vet is competant and find no signs of punctured lung, keep a very close eye on your chin today. You need to make sure he is eating, if that stops his health will go downhill fast. I do still think he should be given pain meds.

 

[Megan]

Sometimes in animals pain medications aren't that great. If they can't feel the pain, they will over work themselves, more prone to trying to chew the area etc. For a fight, I would simply keep the area very clean, make sure he is eating/drinking, and let him heal. I wouldn't stress him out by rushing him back to the vet yet again.

One thing to keep on hand is critical care. It's great in a case where a chin goes off feed and you can start force feeding right away. I always keep some in the fridge.

 

[ticklechin]

Chinchillas and steroids don't mix, not sure why your vet thinks otherwise. That is what I was told by me vet.

 

[ticklechin]

Here is a vet opinon also

http://www.chins-n-hedgies.com/forums/showthread.php?p=109111

 

[Hotflats]

I'm still waiting for him to call me back! Grrr, but I'm impatient LOL

He is coming down, he was just nibbling on some pumice and my fingers

Also, I check his boo-boos, all of them .. they are scabbing, dry, clean ... and don't look infected. I even massaged him backwards, moving all his fur up ... just in case anything was missed. I didn't find anything. That alone make me SURE he isn't feeling quite himself though. I usually cannot touch him THAT much.

BUT, as long as I can observe him drinking and nibbling ... I'm just gonna give him more attention and watch him like a hawk. I do trust the vet, he sees ALL our furry kids (cats, dogs, chins) ... so ... my daughter (10), who is loves these guys more than her own Daddy ... is 500% freaking out over Zorro is just BESIDE herself with me not letting her near him. She'll thank you for allowing her to play nurse today!

I'll check back and let you know how he is doing! (he is the one in my profile pic BTW!)

THANKS EVERYONE!!!!!

(As for the shot, all I know is what that link said up there in my last reply. Maybe it's a "one vet likes it, one vet doesn't" kinda thing? I don't have a vet degree ... so, I'm not about to argue with him?)

 

[ticklechin]

A good amount of vets know squat about chins, its up to the owners to know what is safe and what is not, and steroids are not safe.

 

[Hotflats]

A good amount of vets know squat about chins, its up to the owners to know what is safe and what is not, and steroids are not safe.

In the future, I'll question it's safety if he wants to do it again.
But not EVERY VET is going to have the same opinion as you or your vet.

I ran him RIGHT to the vet!
I payed good money for the appt!
I'm not complaining at all, or ignoring my chins symptoms.
I've called the vet and I'm taking him for an after hours emergency appointment ...
I'm pretty sure he knows a little more than squat, AT LEAST a lunge!

Look, I'm sure you are very nice & knowledgeable and are trying to help, but guilt is not nice! I read these boards, I know my fair share and If I don't know something I'll ask. I really shouldn't be expected to know if you think or Dr. Joe Schmo from St. Louis doesn't approve of another vets choice? It's not like I went in there and demanded a steroid shot? And It's not like I'm sitting here thinking, oh well fur ball just die!

I'm really trying my VERY best to do the right thing for him ... :cry3:

Sorry if I sound mean, but it's been a long couple of days & I took a personal offense to that ...

 

[RDZCRanch]

You need to calm down, first and foremost. I did not see anywhere that Dawn mentioned or even implied that you wanted the steroid shot for your chin.

If you want to do the best for your chin, don't use this vet. His answer to a chinchilla in shock is to give a steroid, which, while effective in cats and dogs is not a good idea in chinchillas or small rodents. This has been proven with RESEARCH, not just random people and vets' opinions. It's great that you like your vet, but you need a vet that can properly treat your chinchilla so that he doesn't end up dead. The best treatment for shock is warm sub-q fluids and keeping him warm. We aren't vets, but I can guarantee a few of us have a lot more experience with chin illness than your vet.

 

[ticklechin]

In the future, I'll question it's safety if he wants to do it again.
But not EVERY VET is going to have the same opinion as you or your vet.

I ran him RIGHT to the vet!
I payed good money for the appt!
I'm not complaining at all, or ignoring my chins symptoms.
I've called the vet and I'm taking him for an after hours emergency appointment ...
I'm pretty sure he knows a little more than squat, AT LEAST a lunge!

Look, I'm sure you are very nice & knowledgeable and are trying to help, but guilt is not nice! I read these boards, I know my fair share and If I don't know something I'll ask. I really shouldn't be expected to know if you think or Dr. Joe Schmo from St. Louis doesn't approve of another vets choice? It's not like I went in there and demanded a steroid shot? And It's not like I'm sitting here thinking, oh well fur ball just die!

I'm really trying my VERY best to do the right thing for him ... :cry3:

Sorry if I sound mean, but it's been a long couple of days & I took a personal offense to that ...

Acting out like this to people who are trying to help is not in your chins best interest. Your vet does not know chins well, its apparent and it happens to alot of owners. This is why there is a forum to ask questions and to be a informed owner rather than being nasty to people trying to give your the correct info.

 

[ticklechin]

And BTW, that article you posted the author stated that Joy of Chinchillas is a good book-that same book tells people to feed chins corn on the cob, green beans, apples and blue berries so be very careful when looking for any info on the net, its more than often incorrect.

 

[Laurie]

Hot, I know it's very difficult being told what to do, and often on the forum there are members who do tell other members what to do and don't have a problem with saying what you did was wrong. No one and I mean NO ONE likes to be told they are wrong. It's ok--it's human nature. I know you are stressed, this is a stressful situation for you. But we do have very experienced forum members here who really know chins and dawn happens to be one of them. I know you like your vet and trust your vet but the truth is just like with human doctors, they don't always know what's best for their "patient"

You can do exactly what you want--no one can make you do otherwise, but you should understand that the forum is here to help you. When you ask what to do people will respond, if their advice is not taken sometimes they get upset and even lash out.

You just have to understand that should something happen to your chin after this incident you will have many saying beneath their breath--I told her what to do and she did not listen.

It is simply the way of the world.

 

[Hotflats]

Thanks Laurie ...

I wasn't trying to be Nasty! Just trying to be honest! None of this has been easy for me! I wasn't even trying to "dis" their advice, but the whole shot thing.... is kind of "after the fact" and seemed like it was all that was at topic.

I said I'd question it's safety.
The emergency vet IS a different vet.
I'm in the waiting room now!

But my vet? His wife owns 12 chins!
He can't be all that stupid!

I'll be sure to post what's suggested by the VET-ER!

 

[Stackie]

Sometimes in animals pain medications aren't that great. If they can't feel the pain, they will over work themselves, more prone to trying to chew the area etc.

Even if the animal is in shock???

It still sounds like he is shocky to me...

Unfortunately, Hotflats, many vets claim to be knowledgeable in chins, but they just aren't. I would take the advice from people on this forum over a vet's any day...many of us here have tons of real world experience. Many vets don't..they just go by what's in the books, which is more often than not, outdated.

Let us know what the e-vet says. Good luck.