Lily ate a bell "ringer", impaction questions

[Stackie]

I don't see where he sees an impaction, though. The x-ray's are kinda small for me to tell, but I really don't see any masses present in the stomach or intestines.

Now that I think about it, I guess it wouldn't really show up if the obstruction wasn't a foreign object but rather food/hair/whatever. It looks like there may be one since all of the gas is in the upper GI tract and nothing really in the lower. (Anyone else have any input on this?)

If that's the case, like it was said, lots of fluid are important to get everything hydrated and help get the mass moving. In which case, sub-q fluids would really be a good idea. I'm surprised the vet turned them down if he thought there was a food/fur impaction. It's not that hard to administer. You could even be taught how to do them yourself. It's a bit intimidating at first but goes pretty quick once you are comfortable with it.

 

[Claire D]

Did the vet give any reasons for refusing to give subcut fluids, metoclop, & decent pain relief?

It never ceases to amaze me how many vets still seem to believe that small furry animals don't feel pain. Bloat is incredibly painful & without adequate (often relatively high) pain relief a chin will not move properly, eat, drink, or pass droppings. A chin that is in pain will often give up & die.

Slow movement of the food contents through the gut means more fluid is absorbed from the fibrous matter, leading to constipation (also painful), possible impaction & a build up of enterotoxins (bad bacteria) which leads to increased gas in the gut - that, in turn leads to further slowing of the gut contents, leading to further absorption of fluid from the food & increased enterotoxins ........... it is a vicious circle.
Subcut fluids are a life saver in many cases - when combined with the other treatments recommended on this forum for bloat/stasis. Any chin with bloat/stasis needs plenty of fluids - both by mouth (oral) & subcut.

 

[Brittany]

In which case, sub-q fluids would really be a good idea. I'm surprised the vet turned them down if he thought there was a food/fur impaction. It's not that hard to administer. You could even be taught how to do them yourself. It's a bit intimidating at first but goes pretty quick once you are comfortable with it.

I'd go back to the original vet and ignore this guy.

I've seen 2 vets in Ohio, the first one only sees cats & dogs but was willing to take Lily's xrays since the exotic vet's machine is down. All of the vets in this area refer all exotic patients to the guy I went to today. If anyone knows of a good chin vet in or around Southwestern Ohio please let me know?Unfortunately the vet that we love is 5 hours away back in Illinois, so for the next two years while I'm in grad school I need to find someone closer.

Since he wont give us Sub-q's I'll do my best to hydrate her by watering down her CC, at this point she is still drinking a bit on her own, just not as much as when she's healthy.

When the exotic guy was explaining Cipriside to me he said that it keeps the gut moving and widens the GI track to help things pass. So if the impaction isn't bad hopefully this will help to pass it? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Brittany]

Did the vet give any reasons for refusing to give subcut fluids, metoclop, & decent pain relief?

Just saw your post. When he palpated her abdomen he said her kidneys felt good and her gas didn't feel too bad. He said since she wasn't screaming out in pain it must not hurt that much. She was chirping and squeaking and that's Lily's way of communicating when she's hurting or feeling threatend. I explained this to him along with the teeth grinding and the hunch back (which only developed when all this started). At this point he cut me off and started raving about what a wonder drug Cipriside is. He's been in the business 30 + years and seemed offended that a "young kid" was asking questions and not taking everything he said for granted.

 

[RDZCRanch]

I repeat...that vet is an idiot. Chinchillas are prey animals. They survive on hiding pain and illness. Of COURSE she isn't going to scream in pain like a dog or cat when you touch a sore spot. She'll try her best to hide it so that she gets left alone and set free.

 

[Claire D]

When he palpated her abdomen he said her kidneys felt good and her gas didn't feel too bad. He said since she wasn't screaming out in pain it must not hurt that much. She was chirping and squeaking and that's Lily's way of communicating when she's hurting or feeling threatend. I explained this to him along with the teeth grinding and the hunch back (which only developed when all this started). At this point he cut me off and started raving about what a wonder drug Cipriside is. He's been in the business 30 + years and seemed offended that a "young kid" was asking questions and not taking everything he said for granted.

*sigh*


I'm not going to comment on the vet since there's really no point, except to say if he had said a chin was not in pain unless it is screaming out then he really does not understand chins at all.

IMHO you need to find an alternative chinchilla competent vet.

 

[~SG~]

I repeat...that vet is an idiot.

I agree, get a new vet!

 

[ticklechin]

This breeder lists CNH as a link, she has a webpage that was recently updated and is in cincinatti, I would contact her and ask what vet she uses.

http://chincinnati.com/contact.htm

 

[Brittany]

Update:

Lily's poops are still small but there were more of them in the last 12 hours then there were yesterday.

I contacted Connie (website that Dawn posted) and she gave me a couple vet options. I'm at work now, but will be calling them as soon as I get off to discuss sub-q's and reglan.

Jennybug Also sent me a PM with some vets in Indinana that I can check into- Thanks Jenny!

Interestingly in her email Connie mentioned that I SHOULD NOT go to the exotic vet that I saw yesterday. I guess some people in the area have been having trouble with him and a chin that Connie sold died because of the treatment he gave it.

I just want to thank you ALL again for all of your advice. I will update again when there is more of a report to make (keep praying and crossing paws that it'll be good news) In the meantime know that I am doing everything I can to get her better.

 

[Chub_Chub]

Brittany- Fingers and paws crossed here for you and Lily! Glad you were able to get the info you need for the appropriate vets. :thumbsup:

 

[Stackie]

I'm not sure how far of a drive Indianapolis would be for you, but there is a wonderful vet here who is awesome with chins. Her name is Dr. Lennox and she is at the Avian & Exotic Animal Clinic in Northwest Indy.

 

[Brittany]

I don't even know where to begin I am so confused and overwhelemed right now.

Just got back from 2 1/2 hours with vet #3 (Dr. W, recommended by Connie the chin breeder). He has pet chins and a lot of his advice seemed in line with what members of the forum say so I think we're on the right track with this one. Although he is also not a fan of the simethicone and does use Berium treatment (I think that's what it's called? I saw in Smudge's impaction thread that one of the vets Stackie talked to doesn't recommened it for chins).

He did a full exam of Lily and discovered that she is not swallowing all of her CC. There is a large buildup in the back of her bottom jaw (but not in her cheeks). Because of when I had fed her he said we couldn't sedate her today. He spent a long time flushing the area with water and trying to swab the food out with some q-tips. He removed enough of it to find that there is a large something on the inside of her cheek/gum area by the very last molar. He wasn't able to remove enough food to see the back molar or determine if it was an abcess, growth or something else. He let me look in the scope and I saw it myself. Whatever it is is is grey-white and infected. He took 8+ xrays of her head and body. Between the head shots and using the tools and orthoscope he determined that her roots look fine, teeth on the upper jaw look fine, and teeth on one side of the lower jaw look fine (I can't remember now if it's the right or the left). However he couldn't get a good enough visual on the side with the Abcess thing to determine exactly what is going on. He's speculating there may be a spur or perhap a splinter of wood or hay irritated it.

The body shots he took are more clear then the xrays from vet #1 and he confirmed there is NO impaction just gas. While we were there his tech fed her 10ml of CC and her poop production got a bit better and the size increased.

He thinks nutrition is Key for the GI tract he wants me feeding her 10ml of CC 3-4 times a day. He wants me mixing the CC with water, acidophilus, and a touch of pure papaya juice (for the digestive enzymes) I am to stop the Cisipride for now. He said the meloxicam is good but warned me that too much would be bad for her kidneys?

As far as the Abcess thing I am to give her .32cc of Bactrim every 12 hours (now that we have an antibiotic I know I need to hold acidophilus for 4 hours). I'm also giving her water via syringe to try to flush the build up of food. He is hoping that with the antibiotics and pain meds the thing will start to clear up, she'll be more willing to use her tongue to get the food out.

He is going to stay in contact with me through the weekend and we're hoping that by early next week I can bring her back and he can determine more about the Abcess thing and it's cause (filing a spur if necessary etc...) He wants to avoid irritating the abcess as much as possible so for the weekend I've been instructed to take all wood and hay out of her cage. She has her water bottle and some pellets (which she's not eating much of anyway), and is living in a fleece bubble. I've got some spare fleece and I'm going to make covers for a few of her ledges so she can still climb.

I'm really pleased with the way he took time to explain things to me. He showed me all her xrays, allowed me to look down her mouth and see for myself, and pulled out his medical books to show me examples of things. He also encouraged me to update Dr. Matt (in IL) about the situation, and that he would be happy to talk to Dr. Matt about anything. Which is good because if this isn't over by the time we go home for the holidays Dr. Matt will be taking care of her.

I'm embarrassed because of all the stress I'm under (both with this and other things) when he wanted to do head xray's it sent me over the edge and the worry of malo triggered an anxiety attack. With trying to work myself out of that and trying to stay focused on understanding what he was saying and asking questions I didn't get the xrays, but I will be going back in the future so if I get them I will share. This is so different from what either of the other 2 vets had to say I'm still trying to process it all.

 

[ticklechin]

This vet sounds like a keeper, I agree with most of what was advised. Sounds like you have it all under control, good Mom!

 

[Brittany]

I haven't posted in awhile, so I just wanted to give everyone an update.

I've been handfeeding around the clock, and as far as medicine goes Lily's on Antibiotics, Pain Meds, and Simethicone.

Her stomach feels less hard, and for the last 2 nights her poop has been bigger and moist (not coming out rock hard!). The hunch in her back is going away so I hope that means she's in less pain. She does grind her teeth and paw her mouth for a few minutes just after feeding. Last night she started drinking from her water bottle again and ate a decent amount of pellets. Through all of this her energy level has been fine, she zooms all over during playtime and begs for apple sticks whenever she sees Lady getting one.

Dr. W has called me every single day to check up on her. Last night he told me that when he calls today we will discuss bringing her in so he can get a good look at exactly what is going on. If this is going to continue on for awhile I'd also like to talk to him about switching pain meds to something that is safer for long term use. I've been reading some threads on Abcess's and it seems like they can take a few months to treat. I'm praying that it was a wood splinter or even a spur that can be fixed versus her tooth growing in the wrong direction. Please keep fingers and paws crossed!

Lastly, she was really wiggly yesterday afternoon and we ended up getting CC and antibiotics all over her face and chest area. I tried cleaning her up with a damp cloth and later a dust bath, but there are still parts of her fur (Especially around her eye) that are hard and clumped together. Any advice for cleaning her up, or will time and dusting do the trick?

 

[Cuddlebug]

You may have to wipe her off and give her dust baths several times before it will all be taken care of.

 

[menagerie]

If I somehow end up with dried clumps in fur, I gently break them up with my fingers and work them out of the fur.

 

[Brittany]

Update:

Lily had an oral exam and filing today.

We arrived at the vet at 8am but he was late due to an accident blocking the road. I waited as long as I could but had to leave and go to class. When I picked her up at 3pm the vet and I talked. The abcess thing is gone so the antibiotics worked! All her teeth looked fine except for the bottom right molars which had some spurs that he filed down.
Is it common with genetic malo for only the bottom molars on one side to be affected?

Here's where it gets weird...

She's alert and active but she's having trouble jumping. She can't even hop up on to her hidey house (5-6 in tall) It's like she mis judges the distance and doesn't get her rear feet up under her. She also loses her balance when she stands up on her back feet. When she's running around the cage floor her motions appear fine. I held her and felt her spine and hind legs/feet. Nothing appears broken, it doesn't appear like there's any pain when I touch her. She IS putting weight on both feet evenly. I called the vet right away and he said the anestesia shouldn't have done it, he wouldn't have let her leave if she hadn't come out of it all the way. He speculated that it might be from being cooped up in her Ryerson carrier all day or perhaps her blood sugar is low. He told me to call him again this evening.

She had 3ml CC at around 9:30am before I left the vet's office and another 3ml just a few minutes ago when we got home. She is also eating both hay and pellets on her own (pooping well too). I'm looking at my bill and she was given Ketamine Injectable (anestesia?), Covenia Injection (antibiotic), and 100 CC Sub-Q fluids at the vet.

Any thoughts?

ETA: Just thought I should mention once I noticed the trouble jumping I broke her cage down to one level. She is on fleece with hay, pellets, water and a hidey house.

 

[ticklechin]

I personally would not allow a injectable to put a chin down for a filing, they do not do well at all. Most vets who do alot of teeth use gas, the chin goes down fast and comes out fast with none of those nasty side effects. I would keep her limited to a single level tonight at least, since its obvious by your description she is still out of it. Be careful feeding her also, she may gag and have issues swallowing so give her a little mouthful at a time. I also would not let her play tonight and if she has a wheel remove it if you can.


As far as the occlusion-they can have malo in only one quadrant, even just one tooth.

 

[ticklechin]

I just wanted to add, as far as the gas goes. If the vet does not do alot of dental work then its not economical to have gas on hand, then the injectable is the only option and as long as she improves teeth wise I would guess she will not need often filings based on your description, if it becomes a frequent thing I would see if I could find a vet dentist since the gas is so much easier on chins who need frequent filings.

 

[Laurie]

Brit I don't have experience with malo chins, but when I attended a seminar this year Christian--our guest speaker brought many films and pictures of malo chins. And there were more than one I recall where there was only one side that was bad while the other was not. I would guess in time though if they only ate on side the other would wear down improperly