When to draw the line in kit behaviour?

[Mandy]

Momma's female is really pushing the male around.
The male will try to suckle from Momma, and the female will start .. peeping.. and rolls him into a ball like they're fighting. That ends in the male running into the hut and shaking up a storm.

It's been happening very often..only seems to be getting worse.
It's to the point where they don't stop when I open the cage, and I have to touch one of them then pull the other away.


ETA: After searching for the longest time for an answer, I post this, then go looking again just to find a thread of someone who had the same problem.

So rotating it is? Probably because her milk hasn't come in. Thought it would by now. :wacko:

 

[tunes]

Yup, I would start rotating before the fighting turns serious and results in injury. However, if mom's milk hasn't come in, rotating isn't going to do any good. If they can't eat, they will die.

 

[Mandy]

However, if mom's milk hasn't come in, rotating isn't going to do any good. If they can't eat, they will die.

Does that mean I should feed a bit until her milk comes in? Both or who is being rotated? Now I'm confused.
The male is 39-40g and the female is 41g.
I have a can of goats milk and gerber baby rice cereal ready to be popped open if need be.

 

[tunes]

How old are they and have they gained or lost any weight?

 

[Mandy]

They were born sometime night-before-last.

They started off both at
Female: 43g
Male: 42g

Now the females at 41g and the males at 39-40g.

 

[tunes]

It's normal to lose 1 or 2 gm in the first day or 2 of life, however, if you're going to rotate them anyway, I would supplement when you remove from mom a couple times a day - maybe every 4 hours.

 

[Mandy]

Can do. I do want to rotate. All their bickering!
I just had to break up another scrap.

I'll do it every 4 hours then. Do you suggest a certain amount I should supplement?


Now where's my alarm clock..

 

[tunes]

You'll probably only be able to get a few drops the first time (some kits apparently think it's poison), and then it should go up from there.

Rotating though is every 2 hours around the clock, not every 4. You can supplement every 4, but the rotating has to be every 2.

 

[Mandy]

Oh, I see. Thank you for your help!
I pulled the female and she's in the carrier with some fleece, half has the heat pad, & should I keep the water bottle available for them? I read they drink early on.
She just took a drop of the milk and cereal..she knows she likes it. So next feeding will be at 1am, (will try to see if shell take a little more now).
Mental notes..mental notes..

 

[tunes]

I think there is some confusion here with either what I said or with how I'm reading what you said. Here is how I would handle the schedule.

1:00 a.m. - Put male in with mom, remove female, supplement female.
3:00 a.m. - Put female in with mom, pull male from mom, supplement male.
5:00 a.m. - Put male in with mom, remove female, supplement female.
7:00 a.m. - Put female in with mom, pull male from mom, supplement male.
9:00 a.m. - Put male in with mom, remove female, supplement female.
11:00 a.m. - Put female in with mom, pull male from mom, supplement male.
1:00 p.m. - Put male in with mom, remove female, supplement female.
3:00 p.m. - Put female in with mom, pull male from mom, supplement male.

Etc., etc.

Basically you are "topping off" whoever you are pulling out, letting them sit for 2 hours, then putting them in with mom for 2 hours to try and keep nursing on her in hopes of her getting her milk in. So they are rotating every 2 hours, but being hand fed every 4.

Does that make sense? If you were doing straight hand feeding, you would feed them every 2 hours around the clock. Instead you are rotating every 2, hand feeding every 4. Welcome to breeding - yee haw.

 

[Mandy]

Lol,
I figured that out and have their schedule together. .. and look! I still have about 15 minutes to eat before I rotate to the male. (Pulled female at 9pm our time)

I understand, and must say.. I have a whole new level of respect for those of you who have so many chins, wowza!

I've gone through countless litters of raising outside kittens, just to have many of them start bleeding from mouth/nose/etc and then die for whatever reason. (This was 5 years ago..I was about 10 years old. lol!)

I can say, for the first time.. THANK GOD I'M HOMESCHOOLED.

 

[Mandy]

LOVELY, JUST.. LOVELY.
Just saw she can escape from the carrier.
I'll be up tonight..shall go grab a gerbil or mouse cage tomorrow..oi.
Unless my stepfather would be kind enough to get the extra cage in the basement for me..

 

[muzzyj]

LOVELY, JUST.. LOVELY.
Just saw she can escape from the carrier.
I'll be up tonight..shall go grab a gerbil or mouse cage tomorrow..oi.
Unless my stepfather would be kind enough to get the extra cage in the basement for me..

lol, good luck tonight!

 

[Mandy]

Lol, we got the cage from downstairs.
It's bar space is way under 1/2 an inch..I think we're good.
Now if only the male would take some milk..

 

[muzzyj]

lol, good. Yeah, boys are always stubborn, he'll take some eventually though. Once he realizes its food and he'll have an empty belly otherwise

 

[tunes]

No MuzzyJ he won't. If you're lucky, he'll feed. But if he decides to starve himself to death, he will.

This isn't a game. Trying to keep kits alive when their mom has no milk is not fun. It's hard work and it's exhausting. Sometimes you do your best, you fight to keep them alive, you even think you're out of the woods only to get 2 or 3 weeks into it and find them dead in the carrier or cage anyway.

 

[Mandy]

Tunes, I force fed him. He wasn't happy being burrito-style.. and was crying for Mom.. but I made him eat and he took in about .1-.2 ml. Not a lot, but it's something so far.
I had to clean out his eye (missed, oops.) and need to go add some more milk to the mix.

Thanks again for the help.

 

[addictedtochins]

You are being a good chin mommy! Keep it up. Good luck, they are adorable.

 

[6Dusters]

It really is exhaustive work. I have not had to perform a full time suppliment yet. However I've had to do a full time rotation with quads. And my last litter I had to do a mini rotation until moms milk came in. It's such a wonderful relief when the kits are able to start on their own. Good luck with them.

You may want to look around for powdered goats milk. I had wonderful success when the kits were a bit older. I ground the pellets in a coffee grinder and mixed the powdered goats milk in it. (and yes there is a certain amount to use)
That set up is not meant to be a replacement for full time supplimenting. However it helped me keep kits bellies full along with moms milk. Anything to keep those kit battles to a minimum.

 

[Mandy]

We have quite a few vitamin stores nearby..I'll have to go see if they carry the powder milk.

The female really caught on with syringe feeding..she's more than happy to get her fill.
Male is still only wanting to suckle my fingers and cuddle against me. I've been making a tickle motion against his lips with formula on my finger. He seems to occasionally be ok with licking it off then.