Linda is right, in all my years of breeding ebs the term "****" should not be used with ebs as no matter how dark the pairing of ebs is they will still throw standard appearing babies from time to time. Its best to call them by their color phase, but then that's a judgment call also especially for the experienced newer people who do not attend shows. Ebony fur also has a different texture and will feel different.
TOV ebony inheritence question... need a clear answer if i can have one please!!
- Thread starter wischin
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You are certainly not alone in that opinion on this forum.
I choose to view it a different way. This person is already purchasing chins from a ranch and breeding them. They came here seeking help, and they have obviously done at least some research elsewhere. We can force them off the forum. This will ensure their chins and the kits resulting from their breeding will be no better off than when they came with questions. Or we can answer those questions politely. Some will take advantage of some of our advice, and their chins and the resulting kits will be better for it.
Do we want to ensure we do nothing to improve the lives of their chins or do we respond to their questions knowing at least some people will accept some of our advice resulting in improvements for their chins?
(And as a side note, there are plenty of folks on this forum breeding without understanding the genetics yet they are afraid to ask given the bashing that goes on here. They and their chins may also be helped.)
Linda
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Ash
Trouble....
This person is not purchasing from a ranch, or even a legitimate breeder if they don't know the colors of their chinchillas, they are purchasing from backyard breeders, which shows their need to learn proper ethics before even thinking of breeding.
mychinchillas
Well-known member
If you are talking about me please get the facts right.
I was just asking. I have done very thorogh research on genetics and I am just trying to continually learn. I was just asking if any of the ranchers have seen this because I have heard about it and have somewhat witnessed it myself. So has anyone seen a kit turn darker, into and ebony, as it gets older? It usually doesn't happen after the age of 4 weeks but I was just wondering so please don't assume that I am someone that is stupid and doesn't know what they are doing.
I was just asking. I have done very thorogh research on genetics and I am just trying to continually learn. I was just asking if any of the ranchers have seen this because I have heard about it and have somewhat witnessed it myself. So has anyone seen a kit turn darker, into and ebony, as it gets older? It usually doesn't happen after the age of 4 weeks but I was just wondering so please don't assume that I am someone that is stupid and doesn't know what they are doing.
mychinchillas
Well-known member
Thank you Linda. I appreciate your help. 
Ash
Trouble....
Are you the OP? The posts referring to learning basic chinchilla care refer to the OP.
Linda - Would you also like to support this person while they whack of chinchilla's legs at home? How about feeling around in a pregnant female's stomach, telling people to look for marbles and that this is the kidney and that is the liver, and they aren't even in the ballpark of being correct in their description of a chin's anatomy? Do you also support that?
I'll back Dawn up as well. Before this person puts ANY animals together, she needs to learn how to take care of their most basic husbandry. Then she needs to learn the basics of chinchilla genetics. The OP states it's "normal" for a chin to carry kits (not pups, please, that makes me crazy) to 140 days and that it makes them come out big and healthy. Really??? And you think your nice, polite lecture on genetics is going to help?
I'll back Dawn up as well. Before this person puts ANY animals together, she needs to learn how to take care of their most basic husbandry. Then she needs to learn the basics of chinchilla genetics. The OP states it's "normal" for a chin to carry kits (not pups, please, that makes me crazy) to 140 days and that it makes them come out big and healthy. Really??? And you think your nice, polite lecture on genetics is going to help?
ticklechin
Well-known member
The OP did a DIY leg amputation on a dare, has no clue about basic chin care such as feeding sugary treats to a sick chin and is proud of the amputation, do you really think they need to learn about how to make more chins if they don't even have the clue the chin should have had its leg amputated by a VET???? WE DO NOT NEED ANY BYBs MAKING CHINS, THE RESCUES ARE FULL, GET IT?
mychinchillas
Well-known member
Sorry Ash, I read that wrong. I take the full blame. )
I do agree with Linda though. Bashing people just turns them away. People tend to be more willing to listen if it is put nicer. If someone won't listen then there is nothing you can do and it is not your problem. They will be accountable for everything they do, Maybe not now but sometime and I wouldn't want to be accountable for what might happen if I am being irresponsible with my animals or how I treat them.
OP?
)I do agree with Linda though. Bashing people just turns them away. People tend to be more willing to listen if it is put nicer. If someone won't listen then there is nothing you can do and it is not your problem. They will be accountable for everything they do, Maybe not now but sometime and I wouldn't want to be accountable for what might happen if I am being irresponsible with my animals or how I treat them.
OP?
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mishalaa
Irish Chinchilla
OP = original poster. In this case, wischin.
mychinchillas
Well-known member
Thanks Mish! Beautiful oblivion! haha
I won't argue with this, but this person is already breeding. We're not going to stop that that alienating them. It's like closing the barn door once the animals have all escaped. You can go through the motions, but you haven't accomplished anything or fixed the problem.
My personal opinion, and I'm obviously in the minority, is that we should help the chins in any way we can. Educating the poster is the only way to do that. So I choose to try to educate the poster. She may ignore everything I say, and that's her choice, but I want to give her the choice to learn something if she's willing. Driving her away may make you feel good, but it has no chance of helping the chins, and to me, it's all about the chins. And I believe there are a lot of people on this forum afraid to ask many questions because of the way they're treated. Educating them isn't a bad thing either. This thread is getting lots of hits, so let's hope others are learning even if the original poster isn't.
I said "pups" once, and of course this forum doesn't allow us to make changes after a short amount of time. I work with multiple species, attend shows with multiple breeds and species, etc. "Pups," "kits," "kittens," etc. are used. Everyone knows exactly what we mean if we mix them up.
If it is against forum rules to make a mistake (and this forum doesn't allow us to fix mistakes after a short period of time), please ban me now. I will continue to make this mistake and other mistakes too. I haven't yet reached perfection. I don't know any other species/breeds that feel so strongly that everyone must cater to their species to continually bash a person for these small slips, but you do it every chance you get. Chin people tend to be extreme in focusing solely on their species. This has a lot of implications, but I'll get bashed even more if I list any of them.
Linda
mychinchillas
Well-known member
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starleomach
Dawnna's Keeper
Ok not to start an issue I am seriously just curious, Not bashing or criticizing so please don't take it that way... I know you breed and show many different species and such...how on earth do you focus enough to do a good job with any? they are all so different so how do you manage to know all the qualities. most people I see even breeding different breeds within a species have lower quality animals because they just have different traits. Liek for example Horses. People breed quater horses and people breed arabs..but is seems people who breed Arabs and quater horses have lower quality horses than those who breed just Arabs
Just an example so...I just wondered how do you do it? Do you do well at shows for all the species?
You're right, that was probably nit picking. Except you've done it over and over and over again. It's not the first time and it is annoying, just like if someone said a dog's offspring are really chicks. I personally think part of being educated and informed is knowing the terminology. You went to great lengths to explain everything, then you use incorrect terminology. It's a personal thing for me, but if I'm going to try and educate someone then I'm going to try and do it with the correct terminology, not something that applies to hamsters, because hamsters are not chins (which you've also been told repeatedly).
No, you're not going to get banned for saying pups instead of kits, (and I'm pretty sure you realize how ridiculous throwing down the gauntlet on such a ridiculous mistake sounds) but after reading your lecture to all the forum members here on how we should educate people, I find it ironic that you don't even use the proper terms. <shrugs>
No, you're not going to get banned for saying pups instead of kits, (and I'm pretty sure you realize how ridiculous throwing down the gauntlet on such a ridiculous mistake sounds) but after reading your lecture to all the forum members here on how we should educate people, I find it ironic that you don't even use the proper terms. <shrugs>
AZChins
Pro Cage Cleaner Champion
Kits, pups...both can have a backyard breeder produce them.
Seriously...the person, who started this thread, isn't worth everyone getting upset over. Hacking off a leg, palpitating for marbles, etc etc. I wish that everyone would direct concern where it needs to go and not worry about being nice enough.
The chins are important to me and they need to be cared for properly, so I agree 100% about asking people to learn how to practice good animal husbandry wayyyyy before they ask how to make MORE chins that they don't know how to care for in the first place.
We don't have to completely stay on topic when there is something that needs to be addressed, or at least that's how I see it. Ebony genetics seem to be the least of concerns here!
Seriously...the person, who started this thread, isn't worth everyone getting upset over. Hacking off a leg, palpitating for marbles, etc etc. I wish that everyone would direct concern where it needs to go and not worry about being nice enough.
The chins are important to me and they need to be cared for properly, so I agree 100% about asking people to learn how to practice good animal husbandry wayyyyy before they ask how to make MORE chins that they don't know how to care for in the first place.
We don't have to completely stay on topic when there is something that needs to be addressed, or at least that's how I see it. Ebony genetics seem to be the least of concerns here!
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ABBY W.
Well-known member
I agree, with this point of view, Linda. But, if the OP has done the things that the mods, et al have said, then I would say 1) a bit of outrage is certainly in order, and 2) the odds of educating this person successfully are pretty slim, being that they aren't showing much concern for the welfare of their animals, and thus a very limited willingness to learn. I think the "old-timers" just get tired of having people jump in to breeding with both feet and no knowledge, and having the animals suffer the consequences.
monarch
The Chinchilla Maid...
I am not a source on chinchilla breeding, but I do know that genetics were something I learned in high school.
If you're a breeder, you should at least know which genes are the dominant genes. Once you know that, you can calculate yourself what offspring you'll get.
If you're a breeder, you should at least know which genes are the dominant genes. Once you know that, you can calculate yourself what offspring you'll get.
The bolded part of your sentence is utter cobblers.
You seriously think you're the only one here who cares enough to educate? Give us a break - frankly you're grand-standing & it's laughable. I'm sure it makes you feel better to think you're so virtuous though - in a similar way to your accusation thrown at forum members that "Driving her away may make you feel good". Again, utter cobblers.
There are experienced, knowledgeable chinchillas owners here on this forum who spend hours giving advice, support & help to new & old members alike. The problem is that some members don't want to listen & all the education in the world isn't going to make a blind bit of difference. They don't want to be educated - they want to be told that it's fine to breed their rescue chins, fine to take on multiple chins without having basic knowledge, fine to chop off their chin's leg or perform other home interventions which should be carried out by a vet, fine not to take their chins to the vet ............. I could go on but won't
Some people simply choose not to indulge the trolls or waste their time - if people really want to look then there are superb posts on the forum & there's a search function readily available. If they come on the forum & ask genuinely then people are always happy to give genuine, educational answers.
Good for you, Linda - when you've been doing that for several years, time & again & you still see the results of people ignoring that advice & chins suffering despite all the education & information available then perhaps you will feel as some of us do; you can tell when someone comes onto the forum & actually wants to learn but you can also spot the others who really don't want to learn either.
Anyone who comes onto the forum, claims to be a rescue, & is proud of chopping off a chinchilla's leg rather than getting it proper, professional veterinary help (which is what a true rescue will do BTW) plus other dangerous practices is not looking to be educated; they are looking to be validated for what they are already doing even if it is completely wrong or inappropriate.
Back on topic - I have to agree with those who have suggested the OP goes back to basics first. Health, behaviour & welfare issues need to be addressed before breeding is even considered & then it's advisible to start off with the best quality standards rather than jumping in with mutations like ebony.
AZChins
Pro Cage Cleaner Champion
Sometimes it is impossible to force people to learn anything no matter how much you try. I could give you countless examples, but I won't.
Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind... Sometimes you have to say something that is not so nice to force someone to take notice. I'm all for being super nice to people so that they feel good about themselves and are comfortable, but geesh...in this case...I don't even know what to say without really going off.
Anyhow, I agree with Claire. So many times people just post utter garbage (cobblers?) in order to try to validate and justify things that just aren't right or are downright dangerous.
Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind... Sometimes you have to say something that is not so nice to force someone to take notice. I'm all for being super nice to people so that they feel good about themselves and are comfortable, but geesh...in this case...I don't even know what to say without really going off.
Anyhow, I agree with Claire. So many times people just post utter garbage (cobblers?) in order to try to validate and justify things that just aren't right or are downright dangerous.
