teeth problems, so worried about his future

[<3chinbaby]

Update: he is finally eating a little bit of hay (i went out and bought alfalfa and orchard so he has options) and mazuri. It seems that he wasn't fond of the mashed up mazuri pellets nor baby food mixed. I'm still going to supplement his diet with cc when it comes in. He is still drooling at this point. When he eats, he eats slowly, a bit of trouble, he does paw at his mouth when eating like as though to take food that he doesn't like out. I am taking him to the breeder that we got him from tomorrow in San Diego. they are a reputable breeder and I'd like to get a second opinion. I want to get x rays for him but he just went under anesthetics yesterday and I don't think it's a good idea to do it again so soon. Is it dangerous to be put under anesthetics too soon?

 

[ticklechin]

I don't know what the breeder can do and the stress of bringing him for that un-needed visit to be honest is not worth it. He needs x-rays to determine the degree of malo he has, I would not get them today but very soon.

 

[<3chinbaby]

I completely agree with you and my boyfriend persuaded me otherwise as well so I didn't take him to the breeder. My critical care is coming in tomorrow (the original flavor) which I'm hoping he will take. Right now he is still drooling, does eat a little bit of pellets and hay I put in but he paws at his mouth a lot and food seems to still fall out of his mouth. I'm really concerned since on other chinchilla owners that got their chin's teeth trimmed don't seem to be drooling after. He continues to drool for 2 days post op. I'm planning to bring him in next week for xrays. This will answer all of my questions. I just pray to god it's not malo. He's still very young...

 

[<3chinbaby]

Update: The critical care came in Saturday morning so I've been feeding him diligently. He has quite an appetite for critical care and continues to beg for more. I try to leave him some room for pellets and hay. He is quite active as usual and you can't tell he is sick at all. However, the drooling continues, although maybe a bit less. His pellets are still crumbled and left on the dish. He still continues having problems eating (he would take a few bites to get a small chunk of pellet off) and he is really picky with the pellets.

I don't know how long these post dental surgery is supposed to be for, but it's making me feel uneasy. I scheduled an appointment with the vet for Wednesday (2 days from now). I will ask for xrays. Is it safe for him to be going under anesthesia already?

 

[ticklechin]

I have had them go under twice in a week, this was using gas.

 

[<3chinbaby]

Could someone please give me a general estimate to how much xrays are? Money is no problem as long as he is healthy and happy but I don't want to be too surprised when the bill comes.

 

[mishellyshel]

I just checked my notes. I had my chin Richie, go for a filing in June 2009. He had jaw misalignment, tooth spurs & 1 of his teeth even fell out. Went to a very expensive animal hospital with an exotic specialist, paid close to 800 bucks. About 2 months later he was drooling again/still. Took him to His regular vet and whatever the "specialist" did wasn't 100% so dr Goode did a minor filing and that was the last time he was majorly filed, which was 18 months ago. I did take him in spring/early summer of 2010 for a checkup and she sedated him & looked in his mouth, wasn't much to file so she may have just done a little work. I hand fed him for a long, long, long time but eventually I hand fed less & offered other food options like alfalfa hay & beaphar plus pellets from the UK & changed his food. He isn't at the weight he was initially but he has held a steady weight of about 650 grams for some time. He is still on some longtetm pain meds. Much less than originally prescribed. But he is the most mischievous & active of all my chins.

But if he ever gets to the point where he I'd not his self & stops doing chinnie things than it is time to consider other options.

My point and I do have one! Is maybe he just needs to bf seen again, put on a round of meds and then see how he is doing. I don't know how bad his xrays are and if the teeth are growing up in the roots but hopefully it isn't too bad and he just needs s visit.

I kept a journal of how much he ate daily & how much he weighed as well A's pee & poop output. That way I had everything in front of me when I went to his vet.

 

[mishellyshel]

Sorry that took long to type on my little iPod. Sorry for spelling errors! It really depends on where u live & X-ray equipment they have. You can call and get a rough idea. They are going to charge you for the visit, xrays. & filing plus any meds. Maybe you can see if they will waive or reduce the exam fee since you were just there. Won't hurt to ask.
You don't list where u live but exam, X-rays, & filing could cost anywhere from 150 to 400 dollars.

 

[ticklechin]

Lu got x-rays, they were 31.00 each. Full x-rays, a teeth cleaning and filing was 290.00.

 

[<3chinbaby]

Update: He went to the vet last Tuesday (his second time) and I asked the vet about xrays. He mentioned that he didn't think Taro needed it the first appointment and to wait and see if the filing would change anything. He stopped drooling 2 days before the vet visit (5 days after his first teeth filing). The estimate for xrays was a whooping $300 which I thought was grossly overpriced. The vet suggested that we wait another week to give him some time to recover before jumping into xrays.

It has been 10 days after his second vet visit and two weeks and a half since the first teeth trim. He stopped drooling for a while and ate pellets and hay. His appetite has been good (he can consume 80ml of cc a day and is always excited when it is feeding time). He gained some weight back. Original weight was 430g, he went down to 370 (when he was first brought to the vet to get his teeth trimmed) and is now 404g. I've been easing down the amount of CC i feed to 60ml to urge him to eat hay and pellets. All good signs and made me hopeful. But he started drooling again 2 days ago. He still crumbles the pellets and eats a little bit of alfalfa stems. I made an appointment to see another vet recommended by menagerie to get xrays tomorrow morning.

 

[ticklechin]

You really need the x-rays for the full picture, and if nothing shows up the x-ray needs to be repeated or a possible CT scan worst case scenario. Lu has been put under more times than needed since the abscess he has on his lower incisor was missed by the vet on the first set of x-rays. When they drool there is pain, it can be incredibly frustrating when the cause it not obvious but you need to muddle through and keep trying until a diagnosis is made.

 

[<3chinbaby]

Taro is still drooling and his appetite isn't really picking up. He ate 5 ml of critical care on his own yesterday morning but refused anymore so I had to burrito him and force feed him. The poor little guy has missing fur under his chin and near his neck area (probably due to the drool and his excessive grooming of the area along with dry skin that is exposed). Force feeding him doesn't make things better because it would be all over his fur and I'd have to wipe and dry him which I can only think would make his skin extra sensitive.

Anyway, I've been emailing a lot of vets in the area and ones that I read articles on rodent dental diseases from. I've emailed Dr. David Crossley as well as Dr. Legendre. I was so grateful that these very busy vets had the heart to take their time to reply to my desperate emails. I was hoping someone on here could help me piece everything together and help me decide what to do next.
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Here is what Dr. Crossley said about his xrays:
His cheek teeth are about twice the length of a wild chinchilla's teeth and they are holding his mouth in what should be considered an open position.

Most pet chinchillas end up like this. The pressure from increased occlusal contact on the teeth prevents normal eruption, changing the internal structure of the teeth. The teeth keep growing and the growing end moves deeper into the jaws. The jaws remodel to allow this.

The upper premier 'roots' elongated through where the tear ducts are often obstructing them. Progression of apical elongation eventually pushes up the eyes, and, in the lower jaw, can be felt as firm lumps on the ventral surfaces.

Over long teeth reduce chewing efficiency. If they get longer then it can make swallowing difficult. The incisors generally elongate until they meet as a secondary about normality. If the occlusal surfaces remain reasonably normal many animals can cope until the teeth are very long, but if spikes or other irregularities develop then chewing becomes more difficult or painful.

Elongation is very difficult to deal with. Prevention is also difficult. We cannot provide diet and conditions to match what chinchillas have evolved to cope with. They are always provided a protected environment in captivity and even if fed just on hay, this is highly nutritious compared with much of a wild chinchillas diet!!! Like many exotic species they probably should not be kept as pets.

Regards

David
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Here is what Dr. Legendre said:

Your chinchilla suffers from mild dental disease. He shows slight elongation of cheek teeth both maxillary and mandibular. A proper dental trim followed by a change of diet to a rougher one may all that is needed to correct. In the diet be sure to eliminate any soft food and also remove all pellets. Grass and hay are best.

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Dr. Kanfer in LA said:


Yes there are some dental abnormalities on the xrays. But the drooling and oral discomfort are diagnostic enough that this chinchilla needs to be placed under anesthesia for his teeth to be trimmed. I perform numerous dentals on rabbits, chinchillas and guinea pigs. ....

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It seems that none of the vets I emailed noticed that long protrusion from his front molars so I had to email them back and point it out. Lets see what they say.

So far, all have said that there is crown elongation which means I'll have to get them trimmed. BUT his molars were trimmed about 2.5 weeks before xrays and it didn't make a difference which indicates an underlying problem. I'm sure his teeth has grown since the trimming and he hasn't ate much hay on his own which caused them to grow. Either way, I'm planning to find out more of that abnormality on his xray to schedule for trimming and whatever other procedure needs to be done. Pray that he'll be fine...

 

[Claire D]

I'm not quite sure what you want us to comment on regarding the emails you have received? They all say roughly the same thing - your chinchilla has crown elongation. David Crossley has given a general indication of what will happen longer term in that it is difficult to treat (i.e. there is no cure) & the progression of dental problems in chins.

What pain relief is the chin on now? How much & how often?

 

[<3chinbaby]

I increased his metacam to 1 cc last night. I'll probably keep it at 1cc twice a day. I understand that all the emails are telling me it is crown elongation.

I'm just unsure if there is an underlying problem that may be missed. He got his teeth trimmed 2.5 weeks before xrays and it didn't make him any better. His molars probably grew back because he was hand fed after his trim which shows elongation in the xrays. I'm just afraid that even though we get it trimmed, it will reoccur. It indicates that there must be something else wrong but no one knows what!

 

[Claire D]

Is that 1cc of cat (0.5mg/ml) or dog (1.5mg/ml) Metacam?

I'm just afraid that even though we get it trimmed, it will reoccur. It indicates that there must be something else wrong but no one knows what!

To the first part - yes, you are right. Unfortunately it will keep recurring - because the teeth will continue to grow as they do throughout a chinchilla's life. It is one for the problems of trying to deal with chin tooth problems - the fact is, chinchilla dental issues can only be managed: they cannot be cured.

As to the bit I have bolded - TBH David Crossley answered your question very well .......

His cheek teeth are about twice the length of a wild chinchilla's teeth and they are holding his mouth in what should be considered an open position.

Most pet chinchillas end up like this. The pressure from increased occlusal contact on the teeth prevents normal eruption, changing the internal structure of the teeth. The teeth keep growing and the growing end moves deeper into the jaws. The jaws remodel to allow this.

The upper premier 'roots' elongated through where the tear ducts are often obstructing them. Progression of apical elongation eventually pushes up the eyes, and, in the lower jaw, can be felt as firm lumps on the ventral surfaces.

Basically what David Crossley is saying here is that the crown elongation will be causing the roots to push into the jaw - that is the problem seen on x-ray. Crown or root elongation is painful.
The roots continue to push into the jawbone - upper, into the eye sockets & lower through the bottom of the lower jaw (felt as bumps along the lower jaw). This cannot be stopped/cured - burring the teeth down simply relieves the symptoms for a period of time & (hopefully) reduces the pain.

 

[SCchin]

Hi,
We just lost the battle with our chin. I will tell you what helped me know there was nothing else that could be done. It is so hard the first time with a malo chin. I would say you are lucky you got one vet to give you a correct assessment, I didn't have even one (out of three) know about root elongation.

Watch your chin for thirty minutes tonight when it is awake. That will tell you a lot. They are up when you are asleep, and you miss many clues. Ours wanted to eat, he would go up to the bowl, start to eat, pull away, paw his mouth and choke on half chewed food. After seeing this, I had no doubts his mouth hurt. He hurt so bad he even turned down critical care.

So now, you know the mouth hurts.... (and ours just had a filing, so it wasn't long teeth, or points). You can try pain relief. We had dog strength (1.5) of metacam, and the most you should give is .1cc. That didn't even put a dent in the pain, he was hunched in the corner. So I gave another .1cc. Then he came out, played, ate a little, but not enough to sustain him (he was losing weight every day). His attitude was better, he had more seemingly happy moments, so we paused. Well, a few days later, the .2cc didn't even last the entire 24 hours it was supposed to. He was hunched in the corner again. And really dumping the weight. Then we knew it was time.

I hope this helps you make your decision and my thoughts are with you.

 

[<3chinbaby]

Claire D,
so does this mean my chin does have root elongation? The vets that asked about his xrays don't see any root elongation but were worried about that protruding object and maybe a missed spur that might be causing him pain.

 

[Claire D]

Is that 1cc of cat (0.5mg/ml) or dog (1.5mg/ml) Metacam?

Please can you check the strength of your Metacam?
Also, what is the current weight of your chinchilla?

Claire D,
so does this mean my chin does have root elongation? The vets that asked about his xrays don't see any root elongation but were worried about that protruding object and maybe a missed spur that might be causing him pain.

Since we have not seen the xrays it is impossible to comment further.
Can you post them on here for us to look at, maybe?
The responses by the vets above are saying your chin has crown elongation which will lead to root elongation in due course. Crown elongation is painful & keeps the mouth in an abnormal position (slightly open) - this leads to pressure being added to the bony structure of the jaw, leading to the roots pushing up into the upper jaw (eye sockets) & down through the bottom jaw.

 

[menagerie]

Crown elongation is just as painful as root elongation as it alters the way that the mouth works. If the crown elongation is not kept in check, it creates an uneven and painful bite pattern. As David Crossley stated, the pressure of eating with crown elongation does lead to root elongation because of the increased pressure on the jaw.

 

[SCchin]

The upper premier 'roots' elongated through where the tear ducts are often obstructing them. Progression of apical elongation eventually pushes up the eyes, and, in the lower jaw, can be felt as firm lumps on the ventral surfaces.


I can't tell if he is saying this chin has root elongation from the above...... if the roots are fine, and just the teeth are too long, then a filing is all that is necessary, correct? Ours didn't have a good bite, and in one month (from an exam to where teeth were fine) his tongue became trapped. Probably because of horrible roots. Fear of future elongation and actual elongation would be two different things, correct?

(Here I come out of hiding for a moment and get it wrong.... if I did, I apologize).