Selling chins known to carry genetic issues to other breeders

[Riven]

I agree fully with Jessica. For anyone to say that they have never had an issue come up in a breeding herd is probably a lie unless they're a new breeder or don't keep their stock very long. It happens, and I think it's sad it's not more openly discussed. It's a flaw... no one is ashamed of pulling a male who produces bad bellies, but you never hear someone say they pulled an animal out of breeding because of malo. I personally put down a whole line due to it. Broke my heart, but they all had it back to one common animal, and it progressed very fast once it started. Anyway... also well said Wendy. I think that quote should go in the Breeder...

 

[Dreamlite]

Not only should it be discussed but breeders shouldn't be shy about pointing out bad breeders. I could go to a breeder and ask and look up show records but if they are dishonost it will do me no good. But if other people mention that a certain breeder has malo more otfen than 'normal' I would be less liekly to buy from them. How can a person lik me who has only been breeding a few years tell who is and who isn't gonna sell me a animal with a genetic issue? It all comes down to who is truthful . And that's not common these days. People are too afraid to bad mouth breeders but I think if someone has a issue that other breeders should know who or where it stemmed from so others don't have to make the same mistake.

 

[saphire]

Honesty is extremely important to me when it comes to buying an animal and expect to be contacted later on if health issues arises. Health and Quality is my goal even if that means letting go of animals.

Chinchilla and the chinchilla industry benefit from thoughtful, well informed, truthful, respectful people who conduct themselves with integrity, grace and honesty.

Hear Hear Nicole!!

 

[chechinchillas]

Here is an excellent article on malo:
http://chinchillas.com/resource/malocclusion.htm

 

[SandyD]

Wanted to add my $0.02 to the discussion. Before I had chinchillas, I had (and still have) guinea pigs and learned a bit about malo from them. While malo developing in young animals does seem to be a genetic/conformational issue, there CAN be other causes, including overgrowth or misalignment due to poor feeding practices (in gps vitamin C deficiency can cause permanent malo because the teeth actually shift position - this does not apply to chins), an oral injury or abcess that causes the animal to favor one side while chewing, an animal off it's feed just long enough for overgrowth to occur, and I'm sure there are other causes. So if an animal presents with malo, it should not be automatically assumed that it is permanent or genetic.

-Sandy

 

[Zoaea]

I know this topic is two months old but I wanted to add two points I didn't see covered much.

1. I think this issue would more being the breeder selling off animals that don't have malo/ect themselves but have produced it in offspring or have it in their history. For example when culling a line because malo popped up, the sold off the healthy related animals to unsuspecting breeders instead of euth/retiring the line.

2. The other thing I wanted to point out is that I don't see any policies posted, at least on websites I have viewed, about contacting the breeder, refunds, ect if the animal you buy from them later develops or dies from a bad genetic trait. I think every breeder should have a clearly worded policy when it comes to their sold animals. This would also help the breeder track any genetic flaws they were not previously aware of. Personally I would do something like full refund or equivalent replacement with a vets diagnosis/autopsy report. This would create buyers confidance and the breeder is much more likely to hear about that case of malo, heart attack, or other genetic defect.

 

[Vyxxin]

I have a refund policy? It's #5 http://rafchinchillas.bravehost.com/policy.html

That said, it's about pointless. In my 9yrs breeding, I've refunded ONCE. The animal was actually a rescue, not bred by me...but it IS my policy and I had not realized I didn't exclude rescues at the time so I DID uphold my part. The reason it's pointless, in most cases...take malo and fur chewing. BOTH known to be genetic SOMETIMES. Once a chinchilla leaves my care...only god knows how it's being cared for. Even a chinchilla not pre-disposed to malo, should he be given poor diet...nothing to chew on...and maybe suffer tooth trauma...well, me may wind up with malo. Same with chewing, take a chinchilla who is NOT pre-disposed. Put him in a home where he's used as the daycare pet...not given proper diet...never allowed to sleep...constantly harassed...he may just start chewing eventually.

IDK, I'd like to hear other opinions on this from the long timers. How may times have you had a buyer use your refund policy? How may times have YOU used a breeders refund policy?

I have ONCE, purchased a chinchilla, brought it home...drooling all over itself within a few days (literally). Had it in, teeth issues, had it put down. Contacted breeder...had it replaced...

 

[Spoof]

I'd like to hear other opinions on this from the long timers. How may times have you had a buyer use your refund policy? How may times have YOU used a breeders refund policy?

Knock on wood, Never and Never. I offer a replacement if a necropsy is done, and while it isn't on my website I do discuss it with people via email and in person.

I also never buy back chins. I will take them and re-home them but it can take 6 months or more to place adults. They just are not as popular as younger chins.

sold off the healthy related animals to unsuspecting breeders instead of euth/retiring the line.

This is actually a really interesting topic. It has happened to me as a buyer, but as a seller it has taken another twist. I specifically shipped down a couple of young furchewers from Ronda to sell as pets when I got the bulk of my herd. Just come to find out they have changed hands twice and the new owners are now breeding them (they approached me for another male for them). I had no intention of them ever being bred, but chins live 20+ years. I have genuinely considering having every chin that leaves here altered in the past but it is very cost prohibitive.

 

[Riven]

Am I understanding that you're saying it's people who are selling offspring out of them that don't know there's an issue, because that's not usually the case.

As for a refund policy, as said above you can't prove it's genetic. If out of a line one or two animals come down with something say malo, then it's probably not genetic if it's the same pairing and out of 30 offspring, only 2 are affected. Like Spoof's story you can't control what happens when they leave. When it's a true genetic issue, that almost every animal out of that line gets it, then there is an issue and they should not just be sold... or traded, to another breeder who doesn't know about it.

 

[Brittany]

While I pray that I never have malo issues with any of my chins, if it did happen I would never expect their breeders to give me a refund. As a courtesy to them I would privately contact them about the issue, so they could decide how to handle it with their herd.

 

[Vyxxin]

When I received a replacement animal, to be honest, the breeder was quite aware of the issues in their herd. This wasn't an isolated incident. Awesome animals, IF you got ones with certain lines excluded. After at least 2 animals from this breeder being put down before breeding, and a third (the "replacement animal") having the same...I finally decided to be leary of certain lines within this breeders heard. Anywho, just my experience. I know it's not always easy to see WHERE the malo (or anything genetic) came in...but sometimes it is

 

[Zoaea]

I have a refund policy? It's #5 http://rafchinchillas.bravehost.com/policy.html

Ahah! See I have never seen your site before, but I like that you have a clear policy on it.

Am I understanding that you're saying it's people who are selling offspring out of them that don't know there's an issue, because that's not usually the case.

As for a refund policy, as said above you can't prove it's genetic. If out of a line one or two animals come down with something say malo, then it's probably not genetic if it's the same pairing and out of 30 offspring, only 2 are affected. Like Spoof's story you can't control what happens when they leave. When it's a true genetic issue, that almost every animal out of that line gets it, then there is an issue and they should not just be sold... or traded, to another breeder who doesn't know about it.

I didn't know you couldn't prove malo was genetic vs environmental, would not the skulls show differences if the chin was previously injured rather than a natural bad growth of the teeth? Well either way at least some genetic deaths could be seen in a necropsy, like a deformed heart or a diagnosed heart condition when the chin was still alive.

Re: to that pair of fur chewers in someone else's post, that's so terrible, it shows how important it is to get breeding stock from the original breeder too, I think.

This thread has given me a lot to think about for the future, I plan to breed chins eventually and I want to start off right. Thank you for all the input from the experienced breeders here!

PS- do you think it would be good for a first time breeder to buy older chins (1.5 years) and maybe from people that do have exchange/refund policies for worst case scenarios? Or do you think it would not make much difference.

 

[greychins]

PS- do you think it would be good for a first time breeder to buy older chins (1.5 years) and maybe from people that do have exchange/refund policies for worst case scenarios? Or do you think it would not make much difference.

I personally find it easier to buy chins that have been shown (typically, buying them at the show. They're typically older (not quite 1.5 years, but often 7-9ish months or older and you have a decent idea of what you're getting. That doesn't always mean they're completely fine and dandy -- I bought one once that dropped dead two days after the show. No idea what was wrong with it, never did have a necropsy -- I contacted the breeder and she refunded me the money.

I'm not sure I would base where to buy chins from on if the person has a refund/exchange policy. To me, I guess it just doesn't really seem to matter, except to an extent that there's no compensation. For example, say my chin died, and I contacted the breeder and they were like "tough luck," and let's (for argument's purpose) say I could prove the chin died. Well, to me, that would really suck, since I likely couldn't have killed the chin myself in two days, but at the same time... the policy (or lack of) is the policy. For me, I typically have less than 20 kits per year and the majority go to pet homes, so my policy actually doesn't have anything in it about genetic issues. Partially, that is because of the difficulty of proving genetic issues. You just never know what happens to the chins when they leave your possession. My refund/exchange policy simply has to do with if someone decides to return the chin for one reason or another, or if the chin dies within the first 14 days. They get a refund or an exchange for another equal (or around there) value chinchilla. In the 9 years I've had the rescue, I've refunded less than a handful of people their purchase price. None of those were a result of the chin dying -- in fact, I think every time it was that the chin didn't get along with their chin.

I think a refund/exchange policy would be something to look at -- but I'm just not sure I would put too much emphasis on that. I have no idea what the refund/exchange policies are for the big breeders, though I've definitely bought from them in the past. It would be good to know what would happen if you purchased a chin from breeder x and it developed malo or was drooling the next day, but then.... it depends on how you feel about that chin. For example -- if you return that chin to breeder x, drooling and all, either for a refund or a replacement.... are you ok with the knowledge that that chin may get put down? Some people would find that cruel and would want to take the chin in for filings for the rest of its life. Here, when we get in rescues that start drooling or showing any teeth problems, they get their teeth ground down once. If it's teeth spurs (which it has been on an occasion or two), that takes care of it and the chin can be fine for years (we had one chin that developed teeth spurs at 1 yr old -- he's now 8 yrs and never again had a teeth problem -- a non-breeder). But if we have the teeth filed and the chin starts drooling again... that chin gets put down. I can't afford the care of monthly filings for rescue chins, nor would I expect anyone in their right mind to adopt a malo chin. Returning one to a breeder would not typically have a positive end for that chin (not that hanging onto the chin and subjecting it to filings all the time is a positive end, per se, but it's definitely a matter of opinion), so it depends on your views and how you feel about what happens to that chin. To me, if I buy a chin from a big breeder and it's drooling tomorrow, I would want a refund/replacement. And I would be ok with that chin being put down and put out of its misery.... but not everyone feels that way.

 

[ticklechin]

Caveat emptor, even if its proven the issue is genetic, you can still get screwed, no matter WHAT the breeders refund policy is. So IMO concider what you buy yours with no warranty expressed or implied.

 

[Dreamlite]

I don't offer refunds unless the person in the original buyer. If the chin has gone through 8 homes and dies.... no one can truthfully say why. I have a 'breeder'about 30 minutes from me who I know uses furchewers (cause they are cheep to buy/rescue) and has at least 2 chins with the start of malo. I have had several people aproach me saying they have a kit I bred that I know for a fact I didn't. If its a rescue I only give a 10 day guarentee, a kit I breed I give a genetic guarentee only valid for the original buyer and if they keep my adoption form or pedigree (depending which I send).with most of my kits going to pet homes and never hearing back from them, most breeders can't be 100% sure about any stock they are using. I think that a malo list should be started. If you know the parents of a malo chin, that way other people can check that they aren't using the same line unknowingly. Without people being open and comunicating how else are people supposed to know who to trust and who not to.

 

[ticklechin]

Without people being open and comunicating how else are people supposed to know who to trust and who not to.

Would be nice, won't happen though.

 

[Riven]

Agreed with Dawn, no one would want their lines publicly put up. There is such a stigma with going public that a line you have has malo because a lot of people don't follow lines, they follow colors, or they follow breeders etc. For example how many times have people heard someone say, "I have Shoot's lines". That's great, but Ralph had more than one or two lines he worked with. Do people think that all of the chins he had, thousand's of them were all from one line? He had a couple show lines, then wholesale lines, pelt lines, all for different purposes. What I'm getting at is, say someone comes out and says XYZ line has malo... well maybe just one line of it does, not every XYZ animal. Even then... say I get a chin that is XYZ A1 who has malo and it develops at age 6 and I bred that animal for 5 years with 12 females at a time. It may be genetic, but it may be that he jumped out of a cage and whacked his head... In the end there would be no chins to breed because every chin if you could follow back and see if any lines related have malo would be considered a malo carrier probably 99% true on that.

 

[Dreamlite]

Its one thing to dis a wholebreeder but to admit that you are human and had a bad lineonly show how reponsible you are. If x123 out of this breeder hd malo and had a kit wit malo I think other breeder have the right to know so they can make their own mind what to do with any related chins they have. Has anyone done a study on how genetic malo is? Is it a 50/50 with kits they produce that will get it?

 

[Riven]

Tons of money has been spent on research, but nothing definite was really found out. It's not a simple recessive gene from what I understand. I works more like the ebony color gene... varied shades of gray.

 

[ticklechin]

Because the mouth is dynamic and not static, malo can happen. Missing a tooth? malo can happen, broken jaw? malo can happen, lazy chewer? malo, born with crooked teeth? malo, calcium deficiency? malo, too much sugar? periodontal disease that will result in malo, Teeth grow more than normal? malo, I could go on and on, but you see the point, some of the items listed are enviromental, some are genetic, some are bad luck, so to prove malo in a case of a sold chin is genetic is impossible.