Selling chins known to carry genetic issues to other breeders

[ticklechin]

At what age is malo considered genetic? Obviously if the chin is under a yr old, but if it shows up at 8 yrs old is it genetic or husbandry? Obviously the animal shouldn't be bred or sold to a pet home, but at 8 yrs old there are up to 4 or 5 generations passed that individual. That adds up to a lot of chins. What about other genetic issues? As a breeder I don't have my chins checked for heart murmurs, so I'm breeding chins with unknown health statis. What are all the issues considered genetic tha breeders should be held acountable in a perfect world?

Chins can malocclude for many reasons, not just genetic. From what I have seen, dealt with, talked with many vets, if it shows up young and its all inclusive its genetic, after that genetics can influence it but husbandry and the chinchillas chewing habits come into play. For example, I have had many malo chins, the ones who elongated along with malo had teeth that grew in excess of 6mm a week, most chins its 1-3 mm a week, all under the same conditions of being hand fed 100%.

 

[Spoof]

You stated in 2010 you have only had one malo chin ever and it was from a ranch, so what experience do you have with malo chins to make this claim?

You are correct, I've only owned one malo chin (now two, thanks to a rescue) but I am still friends with many breeders who do have these problems but do not post on this forum. Posting will only get you flamed but information is still passed the old fashioned way. Getting some of the "big boys" drunk at a show is also an eye-opener.

 

[Riven]

"Big" ranchers don't always have big herds, there are many top breeders who keep less than 300 animals, Bradford's for example didn't have 1000's of animals like some of the big breeders. I know by pet standards that's big, but by old time breeding standards it's not.

I actually had a situation in mind when I started this, it was clearly genetic and I actually thought the animals in question had mostly been put down until I found that they were actually in a different herd which I saw first hand.

I've dealt with a lot of malo in violets, not from one breeder or even one line. I don't know if it goes back to certain lines when they were being developed or what not. I had some very top quality violets I had here from a breeder who was great, I let her know that both sisters out of different litters developed malo and she split the pairs. They both stayed here until they got bad enough to put them down. They progressed very quickly, but no one else in that group did.

I agree that if you listen and watch, or add enough alcohol... you'll learn or experience things that you wish you hadn't known because it makes you lose respect for some people.

 

[ticklechin]

The direction of this thread is giving me more creeps that I already had on the subject, denial and cover up, everything is a secret, it won't ever change in this field, "not in my herd", "its the other guys problem", "its NEVER genetic", on and on, blech, off to happier things.

 

[aznmexaggie]

I know of many ranchers whose practice it is to put down any animal with malo and if I were to have malo pop up somewhere down the road, I would euthanize the animal as well. I have visited many fellow ranchers and their thoughts are that an animal with malo is no good for anything. You don't want to breed that animal and have malo being carried on silently in your next crop of offspring only to come back and haunt you when all their offspring pop up with malo. And it's no good for a pet because it's not going to thrive and will die young or need to be put down anyway. Those who ranch should be following humane practices. It is only right to put down a malo animal and end what could amount to years of suffering and pain or prolonging the inevitable (it is going to cause pain eventually), if left alive.

It don't think it is right to suggest that it is common practice for big ranchers to do this as in my experience with many well-respected long-time ranchers, common humane practice amongst them is to put down a malo animal.

 

[Vyxxin]

Since I'm one of the first to mention the "big boys"...I was definitely NOT, under any pretense, suggesting that it is COMMON PLACE for any "reputable" breeder/rancher to do this. What I AM suggesting is that you NEED to, NEED TO...NEED TO KNOW your breeder BEFORE buying. I don't mean just what ONE person says. I mean, go behind the scenes...get the good and the bad, THEN meet the rancher/breeder yourself.

I was pointing out that there are morally corrupt breeders/ranchers of every size. I do this, because way too often a person feels comfortable buying from "so and so, because they're the biggest or bestest in the industry" and that doesn't mean a darn thing if their herd is saturated in malo, chewing and poor/non producers.

I'm guilty of selling my "lesser quality" animals every once in a while when I replace them...to breeding herds. Why? My lesser quality breeding animals are still breeding quality by my standards (quality, health, temperament in every aspect) but maybe I have a 1st place mosaic and her daughter was just shown and took res.sec.champ?

Selling a 1st or 2nd place quality animal is a whole different ballgame than selling a chin with malo. As far as malo goes, it can and DOES show up early sometimes...but I've had animals go through their first prime at 10-11months of age. Genetic malo doesn't always show up that young. During the long long lifetime of a chinchilla, due to their lifestyle, there are many opportunitys to have an incident that causes malo. I genuinely feel that malo occuring within the first year, year and a half, are the genetic cases. That's me and I have no qualifications other than a good understanding of biology.

Anyhow, back to the original point. It's not acceptable for any breeder/rancher of any size to withold pertinent information (this animal may have malo, parents furchewed, mother lost 75% of her kits due to poor milking/mothering, line is deep with ebony) from anybody purchasing their animals with the intent to breed. It really hurts the industry as a whole.

 

[EMSChins]

Selling a 1st or 2nd place quality animal is a whole different ballgame than selling a chin with malo.

Not arguing with your point in the above post but I just wanted to point out that these are not necessarily mutually exclusive. It is very possibly to have a 1st or 2nd place chin that still has malo since looking at a chins teeth under xray is not part of the judging process. Heck, an animal can be GSC one day and slobbering like crazy the next. Unfortunately you can't know ahead of time that a chin has malo until it progresses to the point where there are observable symptoms.

 

[Vyxxin]

Oh absolutely, and for "newbie breeders" reading this that's an excellent thing to point out. Any chinchilla can have malo. While I WAS specifically referencing a chinchilla whose only flaw WAS low show placement, chins of any show ranking CAN have malo.

 

[EMSChins]

I understood what you were saying Ange - just thought someone else would misinterpret.

 

[ticklechin]

The chinchilla in my avatar is Gino, the 2006 CA ECBA state show he took a first in his class, would have been a GSC according to Shoots if it was not for his curly tail, at that time he was a year and a half old, been going through experimental malo treatment for 7 months was filed two weeks prior to the show, he is the chin from the famous ranch I talked about, you would never guess he had malo looking at him. He could have been a pelt no problem even with malo.

 

[Snickers]

Not arguing with your point in the above post but I just wanted to point out that these are not necessarily mutually exclusive. It is very possibly to have a 1st or 2nd place chin that still has malo since looking at a chins teeth under xray is not part of the judging process. Heck, an animal can be GSC one day and slobbering like crazy the next. Unfortunately you can't know ahead of time that a chin has malo until it progresses to the point where there are observable symptoms.

I had a bv female that won GSC my own breeding. I showed her 2 more times she got a 1st next show a 2nd. I never knew she had malo, no signs of it. She was about 2 or 3 years old. I met Mengerie down in San Diego came home she was wet under her chin. I dried her off took the water bottle out thinking that her water bottle was leaking. Maybe 2 hours went by wet again. I then took her into the house looked at her teeth one of her top teeth was curled. Vet trimmed them, x-rays, she was put down after a month. Her 2 full sisters from different litters (bv and standard both females) bv was put down due to malo. The standard is still living as well as the parents. Both parents show no signs of malo. Both parents came from 2 different ranchers and they are living together (male is neutered).

 

[Godins Chinchillas]

Malo happens everywhere and in everyone's herd at some point. There's no avoiding it. What sets you apart from others is what you do with that information.

 

[EMSChins]

Malo happens everywhere and in everyone's herd at some point. There's no avoiding it. What sets you apart from others is what you do with that information.

Well said!!!

 

[Spoof]

(this animal may have malo, parents furchewed, mother lost 75% of her kits due to poor milking/mothering, line is deep with ebony)

Ouch, Guilty as charged and I fully disclose this. However, I don't believe this is a genetic issue. My longest tracked pedigrees have ebony that go back beyond the 15 generations I have records for. They have the amazing qualities that let Ronda and I win up and down the west coast and still have high production for wholesale and and produce litters of 3-5 into their teens. One of her best lines. )

The hardest thing to do working with that line is to find comparable outcrosses of any color.

Malo happens everywhere and in everyone's herd at some point. There's no avoiding it. What sets you apart from others is what you do with that information.

Well said! So does random health issues, fungal attacks, feed issues, housing/husbandry issues... everyone learns their capacity one way or another.

 

[Vyxxin]

Ouch, Guilty as charged and I fully disclose this. However, I don't believe this is a genetic issue

LOL! Well...it IS genetic and for those breeding with white bellies in mind it IS an issue. I don't want ebony in my standard lines even 5 generations back...not 10...never! I just had two kits born, standard gray in appearance. Their mother is a gray, father is an ebony white. I was hoping for a white from this pairing. The kits will be sold, most likely as pets. IF they turn out nice enough they'll be sold with full disclosure that there COULD be ebony in the lines.

For those breeding for the dark bellied mutations, it isn't an issue no. But I know breeders who've lied about ebony being in their lines...selling offspring who grew up and reproduced to ruin their breeders lines with muddy bellied standards/blacks/beiges/whatever. It's NOT a flaw, when you're breeding FOR it.

And yes, very well said Jessica. That can be applied to all things chin. When I first got in, a very big breeder made this point to me in regards to furchewing. My babysister had gotten a chin, that she wanted a buddy for. Rescues weren't big then so I contacted a few breeders about animals they were culling. Not breeding animals, that wasn't the goal with her same sex pair. Just a happy little critter to love. We got a chewer. It was NOT an issue for us. BUT the breeder did "keep it real" when we picked that little chin up. He told me, all breeders run into this stuff (it was an animal he'd bred). He then went on to say a LOT of the breeders don't disclose they have stuff pop up, they sweep it under the rug and pretend it doesn't exist in their herd. FYI, that big breeder is still in the business today and I have a great deal of respect for him teaching me this early on (I was 17 at the time). Saved me a lot of preconceived notions regarding big names.

 

[aznmexaggie]

There can be "bad apples" so to speak in any animal industry, not just chinchillas. This is why it is important for us to research and work with ranchers who we have developed trust for and respect.

 

[ticklechin]

Malo can and does show up under a year old, it would be genetic malo in most cases. I understand that genetic stuff can show up out of the blue, its what the breeder/rancher does with the issue is what matters, and it should not involve selling the chin to anyone. PTS or keep IMO is the only option, loss happens in any business, deal with it.

What the breeder/racnher should do with the problem is what I said here.

 

[designer chins]

There can be "bad apples" so to speak in any animal industry, not just chinchillas. This is why it is important for us to research and work with ranchers who we have developed trust for and respect.

This is also well stated.

Chinchilla and the chinchilla industry benefit from thoughtful, well informed, truthful, respectful people who conduct themselves with integrity, grace and honesty.

 

[Godins Chinchillas]

Where's the like button?

 

[bchins]

Where's the like button?

Agreed!