Same initials...

[mishalaa]

I know SRC and have known them as long as I've been breeding/showing. Anyone in the show circles knows them as they have done quite extremely well. I know them not only by their ranch name but by their actual names as well - which yes, SRC is an abbreviation for. Whenever I see SRC, whether on a pedigree, on the show results, or in chin-related advertising, I think of them. My first breeding pair were SRC chins and SRC is all over the pedigrees of the chins I produce. I know you as Spoiled Rotten, not as SRC, and seeing that logo as your avatar (which I agree, it is very cute, but...) still makes me think of the breeders.

There is nothing they can do, really, if you do wish to continue using that logo. Registration with MCBA/Empress is not effective outside those organizations. However, those organizations are very endemic to the chinchilla community, and ranch brands are very much recognized and paid close attention to among the members.

I wouldn't want someone using MISH to identify them in the same circles as me. Not only do I use it outside of chin-related things, but it's my actual name (as is SRC to them). If it were no longer unique to me, I might get upset too as I am very proud of what I produce under that name. Although, ultimately, there is nothing I can do to stop anyone else from using it, either.

 

[chinsNdobermans]

I guess I can see where they are coming from. I ran into an issue recently with the MCBA where I found out my brand (MHAC) was originally another breeder's and on most lists, MHAC is still listed under their name instead of my ranch name (Humble Acres Chinchillas). I contacted the MCBA, as I didn't want to be using the brand if they were still breeding but I was assured that the brand was mine and I could continue to use it. I still feel strange about it because, as I mentioned, most lists list them as the holders of the brand, not me. I'm proud of what we produce here - extremely so - and I am still considering a brand change due to it.

I don't think you have to change your logo though... you aren't putting yourself out there as SRC... It's just your avatar here and a logo at the top of your webpage.

 

[Essentia]

Apparently my logo here and on the top of my website is too much...

I am going to ask Sendra if she is willing to rework the logo. I think this has put enough issues between everyone. I was contacted back by the chairperson of the MCBA who said she can see where they are coming from and she would also be weary of someone else going around with that name.

I just want everyone to realize I am NOT going around with that name, it was once again, just a logo for the rescue. I am still Spoiled Rotten Chinchillas Rescue, and that was never going to change. I do wish the breeder had come at me a bit differently, especially in the latest emails, but I'm not going to hold that against them. Once again though, it was never my plan to join the MCBA or to breed chinchillas.

What thoroughly sucks for me is I ordered business cards with this logo last night before all this came up...that's a bunch of money down the drain.

 

[lilchinchilla]

The only point I am trying to make is if someone says that ABC chins has great chins and you should see them about any chins you want and there are two people with chins under ABC chins then how do they know which one is which. Or worse yet say one of the ABC chins has a health problem or some other very negative issue, would you want to be the other ABC chins?

By the way the logo is very nice!

Just a little fyi, there is an ABC chins and a person who uses the ranch brand ABC but they are two different breeders in two different areas(Canada & U.S.A.).
I don't think either of those people have had issues with one another using these, nor do I think they've been confused as the same place? Either way, just thought to mention, that your example, is actually something that is true...

I personally, don't think it quite falls in the same category, since one is a rescue, one is a breeder, and (as far as I can tell) the rescue is not showing chins nor giving those initials to their chinchillas as a ranch brand... Just my opinion though!

 

[rcr]

I guess I don't understand what the breeders problem is if 1.) your not registered with the MCBA and 2.) not using it as a name, just a logo. Besides don't all MCBA ranch brands require an M before the brand? So someone registered as SRC would actually be MSRC? Going back to the logo, I LOVE it! It's adorable and think Alli had a great idea to add R to it, or maybe even add the word rescue underneath? Hey wait a minute if you change it to SRCR then that's my name. I'm Sarah and my ranch brand is RCR. Copycat! :hilarious: Seriously though, thank you for being out there and rescuing chinnies. I'm sorry you have to deal with such obstinance.

:thanks10:

 

[starleomach]

I am ABC chinchillas and my ranch brand is MABC... I know there is a breeder who has the brand ABC id doesn't bother me at all...perhaps it is because we are in different parts of the word. Now if I saw someone with ABC as their logo I am not sure what I would do, but that is a bit different since my herd name is ABC.... I guess since you ordered the cards use them up and just change the logo for the future. Anyone you give the card to will be looking you up in particular and contacting you.

 

[mishalaa]

SRC is not the full name of the breeders ranch just as it's not the full name of your rescue, it is their brand/your logo. I don't see a difference as both SRCs are an abbreviation that you choose to go by and people will recognize you by. Frankly, I don't see how you're not going by it if you've got it as your avatar, on your website, and on your business cards.

It doesn't matter that you're not a breeder/not showing/not a member of the MCBA. MCBA is irrelevant other than it's one place where the breeders are registered, active, and well known. What is relevant is that you're both active users of this board, where thousands of chinchilla people, including other MCBA members, see both you and the breeders, using the same three letters for your business/rescue. Were neither of you on this board, I doubt the breeders would even know you were using the letters, and possibly not even care.

I find it a bit disrespectful to drag this to the public when the breeders contacted you in private. I also think some of the obstinacy is yours as you said yourself you're not committed to the letters and you're not opposed to changing it (whereas the breeders have been using it for several years and it would be far more difficult, even detrimental to their previous success, for them to change), yet here you are, having not yet changed it and petitioning the public to keep it. As said before, you have every right to keep it - but you're being just as stubborn for doing so. I have no idea what the breeders wrote to you or if they were even rude, that's just hearsay. I do know that bringing it to the forum was not a classy move.

I wouldn't have written this post since you already said you were going to ask Sendra to redo the logo - if it weren't for the continued responses slandering the breeders.

As a side note: MCBA requiring an M before brands registered with them is a fairly new rule. All brands registered prior to this rule going into effect remain the same, and any brand registered with Empress (who does not require the M prefix) can be transferred as is to the MCBA registry. The breeders are registered as SRC.

 

[tunes]

Are you expected to change the name of your rescue too? Some people may not continue to say "Spoiled Rotten Chinchillas" every time they refer to your rescue. They may abbreviate it. If they choose to call it SRC, does that also infringe on someone's rights?

MCBA is an organization but it's not the end all and be all. Let's face it, outside of the chinchilla world not many have heard of it. Very few pet owners are ever going to hear of it or care about it. It's hardly on par with Apple or IBM, Ford or Chevy.

As far as I see it, you are not going to be selling your animals to breeders and most rescues don't buy animals from breeders, so how will these initials become an issue? You're not going to be handing out pedigrees with your initials on them stating what litter they were from.

I think your logo is cute and if you've already ordered your business cards, you have every right to use them. I can understand where someone else might think you infringe on their initials, and if you were in the breeder world that would be an issue, but you're not.

I go by Prairie Chinchillas, as does my website. There's a person in Illinois who tried to get my domain name, and I believe they are still Prairie Chinchillas, but for a domain they had to go with Prairie State Chinchillas. I don't care. I know who I am.

MCBA requiring an M before brands registered with them is a fairly new rule.

On a side note, what do you consider "fairly new?" As long as I've known of MCBA, that's been the rule, and that's been at least 8 years I think.

 

[mishalaa]

I don't know when that rule went into effect - it's been in effect as long as I've been a member - but I do know it wasn't always a rule and that given the entire history of the industry, it is "fairly new." I was purposefully being vague because I didn't know the exact date, or if SRC was registered before then. Just explaining that MCBA can, does, and did register brands without an M in front, and that SRC is registered as SRC, not MSRC.

 

[lilchinchilla]

Um, just looking at ranch brands listed, and I noticed there is a MSRC and an SRC.... that is somewhat confusing. Do those two ranch brands (and breeders - because they are both breeders), get confused too?

 

[mishalaa]

Does Spoiled Rotten Chinchillas get confused with Spoiled Chins?

 

[tunes]

Does Spoiled Rotten Chinchillas get confused with Spoiled Chins?

If there's no problem with Spoiled Chins and Spoiled Rotten chins being confused, then what's the complaint with SRC the breeder and SRC the rescue? It can't go both ways.

I didn't realize until a few minutes ago who the SRC even was. I had never heard them referred to by that. I've only ever heard them referred to by the "S and C" part of it.

 

[Essentia]

I find it a bit disrespectful to drag this to the public when the breeders contacted you in private.

I disagree. I found it unfair and unreasonable that they were asking me to do this in the first place. I still do, but I am going to change it because I can see they, and some of you, are upset over it. I wanted to see what other breeders thought about it, hence the debate thread. I never said the name of the breeder. I never realized the breeder was this big of a breeder that people would realize who they may be off their initials. That's not my fault. You can't blame me for other breeders also thinking this is also ridiculous.

They said they were contacting the MCBA about me, so they also wanted to bring this out in the open. I just brought it here while they were bringing it to the MCBA. Why is it ok for them but not me?

 

[RDZCRanch]

SRC is not the full name of the breeders ranch just as it's not the full name of your rescue, it is their brand/your logo. I don't see a difference as both SRCs are an abbreviation that you choose to go by and people will recognize you by. Frankly, I don't see how you're not going by it if you've got it as your avatar, on your website, and on your business cards.

If I look at Crysta's logo with SRC in it I don't think of the breeder's name or ranch name. I see that logo that is obviously a very cute rescue logo (I don't know any big breeders that show and breed for show that would want a cute cartoon logo like that) and I think "Spoiled Rotten Chinchillas." Not to mention that they are in different states and other than this board their worlds will probably never cross paths. She still isn't going by the letters because she has not asked anyone to refer to her or her rescue as SRC rescue. That is simply her logo.

It doesn't matter that you're not a breeder/not showing/not a member of the MCBA. MCBA is irrelevant other than it's one place where the breeders are registered, active, and well known. What is relevant is that you're both active users of this board, where thousands of chinchilla people, including other MCBA members, see both you and the breeders, using the same three letters for your business/rescue. Were neither of you on this board, I doubt the breeders would even know you were using the letters, and possibly not even care.

While this is a large board with many members. Crysta is well known and I've always known her rescue as Spoiled Rotten Chinchillas. To me...that's completely different than someone's name that I assume is one word for a ranch name. Not to mention, the breeder brought MCBA into the equation...not Crysta. They did say that SRC is how they are known to MCBA and for that reason they would like her to change her logo. So this whole thing is about their brand that they registered with MCBA. That is what their original complaint was about.

I find it a bit disrespectful to drag this to the public when the breeders contacted you in private. I also think some of the obstinacy is yours as you said yourself you're not committed to the letters and you're not opposed to changing it (whereas the breeders have been using it for several years and it would be far more difficult, even detrimental to their previous success, for them to change), yet here you are, having not yet changed it and petitioning the public to keep it. As said before, you have every right to keep it - but you're being just as stubborn for doing so. I have no idea what the breeders wrote to you or if they were even rude, that's just hearsay. I do know that bringing it to the forum was not a classy move.

While my name has nothing to do with my ranch brand...many people know me by my ranch name but more importantly they know the person behind the ranch. It would not hurt my success or my good name to change my ranch brand at any given time. I could keep my ranch name EXACTLY the same and change my brand from RDZC to TWHC and still get the same recognition. I also know most people know that Gary Neubauer owns Bowen chinchilla ranch...not many people call him or his ranch EBG which is his brand. It's about the ranch NAME...the brands were designed to help ranchers distinguish themselves from each other and to give them all a unique set of numbers/letters to tag animals at shows so they wouldn't mix up any escapees and so stealing was a little more difficult. I don't see Crysta trying to steal their animals, going to shows, or becoming a rancher.

As a side note: MCBA requiring an M before brands registered with them is a fairly new rule. All brands registered prior to this rule going into effect remain the same, and any brand registered with Empress (who does not require the M prefix) can be transferred as is to the MCBA registry. The breeders are registered as SRC.

They stated in an email that they have been using their name with that brand for 6 years. Since Peggy got hers 8 years ago, the rule has been around since then...they had to have had a brand with ECBC first and since I don't know them and they only talk about MCBA I assume they don't have an ECBC brand.

I wouldn't have written this post since you already said you were going to ask Sendra to redo the logo - if it weren't for the continued responses slandering the breeders.

I don't see anyone slandering the breeders on here. No one has said their names and over half of us couldn't even figure out who the breeder is just from the initials. No one has said they breed horrible chinchillas or have un-ethical practices. We simply disagree with how they view those three letters being in conjunction as something that belongs to them when it pertains to anything chinchilla. I'd feel the same way if they were telling someone who only sold wood products for pet chinchillas that they couldn't use SRC in their logo if SRC stood for Super Ridiculously Cool chinchilla products. It's the same thing because while Crysta's rescue does involve chinchillas it is not and will not be the same thing as a breeder. While it's the same product...they are doing different things with it.

 

[menagerie]

I disagree. I found it unfair and unreasonable that they were asking me to do this in the first place. I still do, but I am going to change it because I can see they, and some of you, are upset over it. I wanted to see what other breeders thought about it, hence the debate thread. I never said the name of the breeder. I never realized the breeder was this big of a breeder that people would realize who they may be off their initials. That's not my fault. You can't blame me for other breeders also thinking this is also ridiculous.

They said they were contacting the MCBA about me, so they also wanted to bring this out in the open. I just brought it here while they were bringing it to the MCBA. Why is it ok for them but not me?

Personally, I'd stay with your logo the way it is using YOUR initials. The MCBA can't do a darn thing about you using your initials. They are INITIALS, they cannot be copyrighted or trademarked. The MCBA has no control over anything other than the people that voluntarily sign up to be a member. If the MCBA was that concerned about people using the precious initials that they have assigned to their members, then they would make a list of existing ranch brands easily available on their website. After all, you can't know that you're violating some sacred series of initials if the existing assigned initials are not published.

I don't see that it would be an issue you having the same initials, you don't move in the same circles or live in the same area as the breeder. If it weren't for the internet, you could have been merrily using the logo for your rescue and nobody would have a problem.

 

[mishalaa]

They said they were contacting the MCBA about me, so they also wanted to bring this out in the open. I just brought it here while they were bringing it to the MCBA. Why is it ok for them but not me?

The MCBA isn't public, this forum is. It would be different if you had consulted some friends in the chat, but you posted it for everyone to see. And, you could have posed this debate without using any initials at all, but you made it very specifically about you and them.

It was a request, is all. I hate to see their names trashed because of it.

If there's no problem with Spoiled Chins and Spoiled Rotten chins being confused, then what's the complaint with SRC the breeder and SRC the rescue?

Spoiled Chins and Spoiled Rotten Chinchillas is not the same name. MSRC and SRC are not the same initials. SRC and SRC are. If the previous MHAC doesn't have a problem with Dee now using that as her brand, or if the two ABCs don't have a problem with each other, then there is no problem. Not everyone does think this is or could be a problem, but SRC the breeders do, and I would too if it were me, as would a couple others.

If I look at Crysta's logo with SRC in it I don't think of the breeder's name or ranch name.

Honestly, Crysta is not well known to me and I hadn't paid attention to Spoiled Rotten Chinchillas until that logo appeared by her name which as I said before, made me think of the breeders, not her. You're right, we are in different worlds and the SRC breeders are in mine, not Crysta and her rescue. This board is what made us cross paths and now that the paths have been crossed, you cannot definitively say that confusion won't happen.

She still isn't going by the letters because she has not asked anyone to refer to her or her rescue as SRC rescue. That is simply her logo.

I don't understand this idea that logos are simple and just logos, when they are pictorial representations of you/your business. That is not simple nor to be taken lightly at all. And how exactly she isn't going by those initials when they are the only thing on that logo.

I also know most people know that Gary Neubauer owns Bowen chinchilla ranch...not many people call him or his ranch EBG which is his brand.

But when you do see EBG, you think Bowen Chinchilla Ranch. Just as when I see SRC, I think the breeders. Especially if it has a chin on it, cartoon or not.

They stated in an email that they have been using their name with that brand for 6 years. Since Peggy got hers 8 years ago, the rule has been around since then...they had to have had a brand with ECBC first and since I don't know them and they only talk about MCBA I assume they don't have an ECBC brand.

I don't know how they got the brand, just that it is their brand and that MCBA does register brands without an M. However, I do know of at least one other breeder who joined ECBC just to get a brand without an M on it, and never renewed their membership with them but continues under their M-less brand in the MCBA. I would have done that as well if I didn't actually want the M on my brand.

I don't see anyone slandering the breeders on here.

Not directly, but referring to them as obstinate, unreasonable, having talked down to her and insinuating that they came at her harshly isn't exactly good press either - especially when no one knows what they said. I'm not the type to blindly agree with subjectivities or believe hearsay.

We simply disagree with how they view those three letters being in conjunction as something that belongs to them when it pertains to anything chinchilla.

I don't think it belongs to them, at least not outside the MCBA, and I don't think anyone is saying it does. Just saying they are recognized by it, even outside the MCBA, and they have not done anything wrong by making a private request.

 

[silkrheinchins]

Ok, I've been debating back and forth about responding to this whole thread. I usually don’t go and post on here pertaining to these petty little things, but I figured since it’s being directed to me I should respond. I’m not trying to fuel the fire here, and after this post it will be my last pertaining to this thread. I'm sure people who know us have been wondering why I haven't responded sooner. And for those that have emailed me asking me to respond to it. So here goes.

For those who don't know, we are the breeders "SRC" that this is all being talked about. SRC is the abreviation for SilkRheinChins. Which many people know us by both names, and have for a while now. The letters are on everything we have. As for the emails, I emailed her and told her about us using the letters SRC and that she might consider changing hers since we've been using those letters for some time now. Never in any emails that I sent her were ever rude or derogatory. If anyone would like to read the emails, just send me an email and I'll be happy to forward them to you, I think there were only 3 to be honest, since from what I hear she doesn't have a problem copying and pasting my emails in the chat room for everyone else to read anyway. She said that she didn’t think we would mind since we’re breeders and she’s a rescue. Which makes me think that she knew someone had those letters to begin with.

As for contacting MCBA, the only thing I said to her was that I will contact MCBA and ask their opinion on it. Since I’ve never come upon something like this. That’s it. She makes it out that I’m getting MCBA behind me to attach her. Far from it. They have nothing to do with this. I just wanted to hear from them and see what they had to say about it. That is it period. This is whole thread has turned out as if she’s a victim and I’m such an awful person. That’s far from the case here. Especially from the people that know us. They will vouch for us. And if you’d read the emails that I sent her you would see that too.

Yes I do agree that there is no set rules on letters and names, unless you belong to an organization like MCBA or Empress, then you have letters to distinguish yourself from others. it's just that, to me it's just common courtesy. Simple as that. I did mention to her that if she were to choose the letters JAGS instead of SRC, then I'm sure she would be getting an email from Randy or Jeri mentioning the same thing I did in my emails. What Mish and Randy/Jeri posted was exactly what I was trying to get to her, but......oh well. She’s gonna do what she wants to do either way, and honestly there’s nothing that can really be done about it at all. I do know that and so does every one else on here. But people come on, there has to be something better to do than sit next to a monitor waiting for the next post so you can comment on it. But this is reality and people thrive on stuff like this. This is exactly the reason I don’t frequent here too often. This has gotten worse than a bunch of women in a beauty salon gossiping. Sorry to say this it but its true.

So I would ask the administrators to kindly close this thread, considering I’m the main person that this whole thread pertains to. Honestly, its actually getting pretty boring rehashing the same old thing, going around in the same circle over and over again just so people can hear themselves talk.

 

[tunes]

Not directly, but referring to them as obstinate, unreasonable, having talked down to her and insinuating that they came at her harshly isn't exactly good press either - especially when no one knows what they said. I'm not the type to blindly agree with subjectivities or believe hearsay.

Mish - I'm not seeing anywhere that she said they came at her harshly. I read her posts twice just now, so if I missed it, please quote here where that was said. It's late, I'm tired and may well have missed it. I also didn't infer that they were nasty from Crysta's posts. She said she wished they had approached her from a different angle. That's not at all the same thing. I know these folks too, and I wouldn't think they would be nasty about something like this. I can see them asking, certainly, but not being nasty and I can't imagine anyone is going to hold it against them for asking her to drop those three letters. It's just a disagreement, and it's going to get resolved one way or another.

It was pointed out to me that rescues turn into breeders sometimes. Yes, this is true. Heck on this forum we have breeders breeding rescues (turn about is fair play I guess). That might be a different story. If Crysta was to become a breeder and want to become a member of MCBA, then that would be something to talk about. There is already an RSC aside from MRSC. Has anybody written to them to ask them to change their initials? Apparently they ARE in the chinchilla showing/breeding world and it hasn't caused a conflict. Why would this?

I'm sure you're friends with them, and I think they are absolutely awesome people. I am getting the feeling that you're thinking this is an attack on them and I don't think that's it at all. As I said, when I gave my opinion, I didn't even know who it was. I found out later. I think it's just someone being honestly confused as to why this is being asked of them and wanting to know if others think it's fair.

 

[Essentia]

She said that she didn’t think we would mind since we’re breeders and she’s a rescue. Which makes me think that she knew someone had those letters to begin with.

What? I was responding to your email where you stated your were a breeder. My exact words were "Considering I am a rescue, and you are a breeder, do you mind if I keep it?". I didn't even come up with the logo! I gave Sendra complete freedom and she came up with the initials and the logo design. Neither of us had any idea who you were.

Never in any emails that I sent her were ever rude or derogatory.

That is true, and I never said that you were rude or derogatory. I just said I wished you had come at me in a different manner. By what you said, you made me feel like you thought you were better and you deserved these letters way more than I did. Here is the part of that last email I am referring to "My point is Ive been breeding for 6years, establishing myself, and paying every year for those letters, and yes we in a sense do the same thing, yes I do take in chinchillas, when their not wanted, or house chinchillas time to time, am I considered a rescue? I dont know, just because I dont advertise that I do it? I guess if you wanna think about I could be considered a rescue too." Maybe I looked too far into that, but that's exactly what it felt like when I read it. Maybe I'm just a softy.

I did mention to her that if she were to choose the letters JAGS instead of SRC, then I'm sure she would be getting an email from Randy or Jeri mentioning the same thing I did in my emails

Actually what you said was "It's kinda the same as if you picked the code JAGS that is registered to JAGS and people would get confused on whos whos", which doesn't mention anything you just said that you told me.





What I am curious about is, what do you want me to do to the logo? Would you be ok with me putting "SRCR" or is that even too close? You just asked me to get rid of the SRC completely out of my logo, which again I find unfair. I'm sorry you pay every year for those initials, but I still don't think that makes them "yours". They are once again just that, initials.

I've said my piece and I will be getting it changed when she has a chance to do it. I will be using my business cards when I receive them because I just can't throw away that much money. After they are used up I will get new cards with the new logo. I will also be continuing to use the logo here and on my website until the new one is made. I think that is only fair.

If he wants the thread closed, close the thread. I wasn't here to start up anything with them, but at the same time I felt they were wrong, and still do, and wanted to hear what other breeders thought about it. I don't think making a thread about it was petty in the least because I am sure this is bound to be a situation again in the future between other breeders/rescues/whatever.

 

[mishalaa]

Mish - I'm not seeing anywhere that she said they came at her harshly. I read her posts twice just now, so if I missed it, please quote here where that was said.

I inferred it from here:

I do wish the breeder had come at me a bit differently, especially in the latest emails

The diction "come at" rather than "come to" implies harshness. I admit that she didn't say harsh, only that I inferred harsh (hence she insinuated it) from her diction and my feeling that this whole thread was turning into an attack on them. I'm sorry if I'm wrong.

And Crysta, I'm sorry that this went where it did. It's unfortunate, all around.