Rights our nation was based upon...

[Laurie]

I'm not try to be offense to anyone--but the US was founded by stealing this land away from the Native American. Our Founding Fathers didn't work with anyone--they came in, conquered and stole away the land.
I'm not Native American, I'm actually German, Scottish and Irish--I'm a Christian and I'm a very patriotic individual. But it still bothers me that we celebrate Columbus Day--please explain to me how you discover a continent someone is already living on? Please explain to me how you can set out the rights and Constitution when you forcefully and maliciously took land away from a people already living here? Back then our Founding Fathers were men who had the right to say what was right and what should be and not women--we didn't get a vote or a choice.
So that said, I hope we've grown enough as a people to never allow something like this to ever happen again. I hope we've come far enough to accept all men, all women, all races and religions with respect. I'd like to see us somehow not fall under the control of The Government and just accept with blind faith the decisions someone else makes for us are the right decisions.
I vote, I believe in our judicial system even though sometimes I disagree, I believe, support and love the men and women who fight and give up their lives to keep our country a free one. I just wish the way our Country became free had happened differently.

 

[Riven]

I'm not Christian. I don't care if someone else is or not. I also don't want to hear anything about it from anyone else, particularly why they made the "right" choice and how I'll come to "correct myself" some day

I fight this same battle, my FIL told me I'm going to go to hell because I don't believe in God. He also always tells me that someday I'll change... and I looked at him and asked if he planned on changing his beliefs, of course he said no, and so I said.. why should I?

I'm going to have to say.. yes and no to Laurie's comment, I don't think it was the mass numbers who took the land, orginially I believe the Natives were cool with us being here, it's when we tried to conform them to English beliefs that makes me angry.

You can say the pledge of allegiance without saying " under God", and it still makes sense. It is just that a pledge, of allegiance. Basically you're loyal and will stand for your country, not God.

My little brother, has permanent paralysis on his face and shoulder from taking a bullet in his head for this country. He said that people would die all the time there, and the most recognition most of them would get would be flag at half mast for half a day at their camp, and of course their families. Flying the flag simply shows you support the country most people have no idea what it means to the troops to see a flag flying, I feel that if you don't support it, try to change it, if you don't want to do that, find someplace you do want to live. If there are men and women who are willing to give up their lives for our freedom, and to help ensure our safety... why shouldn't we support the country too?

 

[greychins]

The managers and higher-ups at Meijer are trying to punish people for flying the flag (great, aint it? what freedom...). Several departments' backrooms had a small American flag propped up somewhere. It was out of the way and not harming everyone. The people in those departments were told they'd get fired if they didn't take the flags down, so the flags came down.

Apparently the rationale was that we can't have anything "personal" on "Meijer space." Yet, somehow it's ok for the store directors (and other high up people) to have family photos (which, somehow aren't "personal") in their offices (which you'd think would be "Meijer space.") Someone complained to Corporate, which said that there is no problem with what's going on here...

One of the employees took the initiative to go buy a tons of tiny flag pins, and he's trying to get everyone in the store to wear them on the right side of our polo collar - all we're supposed to wear on our polo is our name tag, on the left side. Sort of like a silent protest...no one's gotten fired yet, but they're threatening it... and unfortunately, only a few people (myself and my friends included) are willing to wear the flag pin.

Amazing how people are being threatened that they'll get fired for flying the flag...of the country we're living IN! I mean I know it's not space they own, its company space, but this seems a little ridiculous...

 

[pricklesnquills]

I'm not try to be offense to anyone--but the US was founded by stealing this land away from the Native American. Our Founding Fathers didn't work with anyone--they came in, conquered and stole away the land.
I'm not Native American, I'm actually German, Scottish and Irish--I'm a Christian and I'm a very patriotic individual. But it still bothers me that we celebrate Columbus Day--please explain to me how you discover a continent someone is already living on? Please explain to me how you can set out the rights and Constitution when you forcefully and maliciously took land away from a people already living here? Back then our Founding Fathers were men who had the right to say what was right and what should be and not women--we didn't get a vote or a choice.
So that said, I hope we've grown enough as a people to never allow something like this to ever happen again. I hope we've come far enough to accept all men, all women, all races and religions with respect. I'd like to see us somehow not fall under the control of The Government and just accept with blind faith the decisions someone else makes for us are the right decisions.
I vote, I believe in our judicial system even though sometimes I disagree, I believe, support and love the men and women who fight and give up their lives to keep our country a free one. I just wish the way our Country became free had happened differently.

Awesome point, Laurie!

 

[mapache315]

Rebecca I really liked your post (and of course love the XKCD cartoon which was my background for a long time).

I don't believe that "Press 1 for English" has as much to do with illegal immigrants as it does with marketing. Also not everyone who doesn't speak English in this country is an illegal immigrant. Think about the grandmothers who are dragged here with their sons and daughters because they have no one left in their "homeland" to take care of them. (on a slightly different note no one seems to complain about the illegal English speaking immigrants from Canada, England, New Zealand and Australia...).

If you are more comfortable speaking another language, are you more likely to go to Company A that does not have "Press 2" option, or Company B that does? It's the same reason why lawyers advertise why they are multilingual. They don't HAVE TO speak Spanish, French, etc, but they do because it broadens their market.

The other thing too is that companies are lazy, and I didn't really realize this until I went to Spain. The reason why directions are in French and in Spanish etc is not because there is a sudden influx of Quebecois and Mexicans in the U.S., but because they sell the same product to Canada and Puerto Rico (and Mexico as well).

I think that this country has been dancing over the line between Patriotism and Nationalism for the past few years. I love this country, I really do, but nationalism is dangerous and has no place in any country. I do think that the Pledge of Allegiance is overused (I don't have a problem with it itself, although the "God" could be done without- and only because that was just added about 50 years ago by the American Legion...a "secular" country should not be adding religious phrases in it), which I never realized until I travelled abroad more and talked to people in different countries about it. I don't think that people shouldn't say it on the basis that they don't like one word though. It just makes me nervous, because once you're a nationalist, it's too late and bad things happen.

I don't like wars, but I would never stomp on a flag or spit in a soldier's face. That's disgusting and wasteful. By the way, did you know that it's illegal to have flag things that aren't flags? (such as flag plates, napkins, shirts, etc).

Also I must admit that one time I did put a stamp upside down, but it was a Disney one, so I hope I didn't offend Walt (I'm just absent minded I promise).

And Rickman, 99% of our immigrant ancestors lived in neighborhoods where they spoke their native language, ate native foods, and practiced native pastimes and religious services. Yes, they learned English, but I don't want anyone to fool themselves into thinking that it was a full on American immersion.

 

[mapache315]

If you say something "wrong" people jump all over you, tell you are inconsiderate, or that was a bad thing. Even if you said you were just wondering about something, not that it was wrong, or bad, or anything. Is that illegal now?

No it's not illegal, and I don't think anyone ever said it was. If they did, they were incorrect. However, "being jumped on" is not the same as being incarcerated. If someone perceived something you said as an insult, it is their freedom to respond.

Freedom of Speech began partially because "liberal journalists" were being punished by the British government for speaking out the injustices that the colonies were being subjected to. Our founding fathers created a democracy, which is based on a government for the people, by the people. You can't have that without freedom of speech.

I think a lot of people have lost sight of what "Freedom of Speech" actually means, and what "illegal" means. People get very defensive when they say something unpopular, and love to retort with "well it's my right to say that".

 

[smhufflepuff]

I will NOT post a postage stamp upside right (by the way that is illegal)

When I was little, my mom told me that putting a postage stamp upside down on an envelope was a way of telling the addressee that you love them. And have continued to believe that until just now... Now, I have to go and research this...

edit: ah, phew, someone else agrees:
http://www.coxes.com/stamping/fun/position.html

 

[pricklesnquills]

When I was little, my mom told me that putting a postage stamp upside down on an envelope was a way of telling the addressee that you love them. And have continued to believe that until just now... Now, I have to go and research this...

edit: ah, phew, someone else agrees:
http://www.coxes.com/stamping/fun/position.html

uh-oh. I'm afraid I've asked a few people to marry me with out even knowing it :wink3:

 

[Riven]

Apparently the rationale was that we can't have anything "personal" on "Meijer space." Yet, somehow it's ok for the store directors (and other high up people) to have family photos (which, somehow aren't "personal") in their offices (which you'd think would be "Meijer space.")

So you should all get pictures of people you know... standing with or in front of a flag.

I do think that the Pledge of Allegiance is overused

Are you serious? I haven't even said the poa in YEARS... like... more than once a day you here it or something? Maybe I live in an anti-POA area....

 

[mapache315]

I don't hear it as much as I used to, but when I was still in high school I would hear it up to four times a day. It gets a little intense.

 

[alli713]

I haven't heard or said the pledge of allegiance since 8th grade. So for me, I don't think it's overused. Maybe it depends on where you live?

So then are you offended when they play the Star Spangled Banner at sporting events? Or think that playing that is over doing it? Just wondering if the Pledge of Allegiance is seen differently than a national anthem.
Although at plenty of hockey games I've been to, they play the Star Spangled Banner as well as O Canada.

 

[Riven]

It gets a little intense.

Intense? Like.. everyone's all freaked out like before a UFC match?

Kind of reminds me of this cult my daughter was in for a while.. they made them hold up three fingers and say their cult chant... watch out for it, if your daughter comes in looking to join a "club" called... the Girl Scouts... BEWARE!

 

[greychins]

So you should all get pictures of people you know... standing with or in front of a flag.

Haha that would've been great. Actually though, someone got the American Legion and some other place involved, and contacted even higher people at corporate... now they "say" they're allowing us to put one flag in each of the backrooms. They're not happy about it though, and they haven't quite implemented it yet, so we're still wearing the flag pins...which of course, gets the managers (the ones who didn't want the flags up) to glare at us. How nice....

 

[Ash]

Greychins, the name of your company makes me wonder... Are the 'higher ups' US born citizens?

 

[greychins]

Greychins, the name of your company makes me wonder... Are the 'higher ups' US born citizens?

I know the people who founded Meijer (which I want to say was like in the 1930's?) came from (I think) Germany (or their families did, I really dunno if they were the first generation over here or the second or what), but all the people/higher-ups/managers who threw a fit about the flags are from the US and have been for generations...

For those of you not from the midwest, Meijer's a grocery/general merchandise store very similar to Super Walmart or Super Target. There are stores in like 4-5 states including Michigan, Indiana, Illinois, and maybe Wisconsin. As far as I know, this problem with the flags has only come up at the store I work at, near Indianapolis...but then, maybe workers in other stores havent attempted to put up flags...

 

[TillyChinchilla]

I know this thread is a couple weeks old, but it is interesting to read.

Why can't people pray in school anymore?

I'm pretty sure kids aren't being punished for praying in school. I've always seen kids in schools having prayer circles and praying over their lunches... is this disallowed in some areas?

I don't support organized prayer in schools, where a teacher or staff member would lead some sort of speech. Kids have the right to pray on their own time, out of school, and in.

My first elementary school had a very high Jewish population, but also had many Christians. They had Orthodox and Reform Jews, Methodists, Catholics, and Jehovah's Witnesses in that school, plus many others. It would have taken all day to go through something for each of those religions.

I can't say I am super patriotic. I don't think the US the "the best" country in the world, but it is where I am from. I believe we have a right to question our government and its decisions, whether I agree with the decision or not. I don't think blind patriotism is acceptable.

 

[HaleyGoBoom]

I think getting offended by the pledge, the flag, or the national anthem is just stupid when your in that country. You need to respect ANY countries traditions.
As far as religion goes, it doesn't belong in public schools, but they shouldn't tell people they aren't allowed to pray. As long as it doesn't disrupt the classroom, I don't see the problem with it.
With the pledge, "under god" was added in way later, (http://www.slate.com/?id=2067499) and had political use, not religious. Many people think we were founded on Christianity, which isn't really all that true. (Thomas Jefferson was an atheist). I don't see the problem with the "under god" part, and I'm agnostic and I'm all for separation of church and state.

With freedom of speech, practice of religion, and so on, we get mad when we can't speak our mind or people can't practice Christianity or something, but when certain people can't get married the same people crying about not being able to pray end up cheering. Not all, but a lot. I think that a lot of people pick and choose when to use their rights and only for the rights they believe in.
To hear people say people need to speak English and just forget their first language is ridiculous. I would hate to live in a world lacking variety. Language is beautiful, foreign and native and I think to belittle a person for not speaking English is disgusting no matter where you're from or what you speak. I wouldn't want someone to belittle me for not being able to speak another language, and English isn't easy to learn. People should learn about cultures and open their mind before saying things like that.
We share this world, with all colors, accents, languages, sizes, shapes, and so on. This isn't OUR world, it isn't OUR country. The world belongs to no one and no one should be uninviting of their fellow man regardless of his or her culture. Biologically we all have the same needs for the most part, everything else is a learned behavior. If you grew up in a different country and moved here not knowing english you'd probably feel VERY different.

 

[greychins]

To hear people say people need to speak English and just forget their first language is ridiculous. I would hate to live in a world lacking variety. Language is beautiful, foreign and native and I think to belittle a person for not speaking English is disgusting no matter where you're from or what you speak. I wouldn't want someone to belittle me for not being able to speak another language, and English isn't easy to learn. People should learn about cultures and open their mind before saying things like that.
We share this world, with all colors, accents, languages, sizes, shapes, and so on. This isn't OUR world, it isn't OUR country. The world belongs to no one and no one should be uninviting of their fellow man regardless of his or her culture. Biologically we all have the same needs for the most part, everything else is a learned behavior. If you grew up in a different country and moved here not knowing english you'd probably feel VERY different.

While I do agree that it would be hard moving here and not knowing English.... I guess I look at it this way. It gets old - people complaining that places around here don't speak Spanish or French or so on. Ok, before you bash me all.... my family is Polish. They didn't come to the US and expect to never have to learn English. It's not like there are car dealerships that have signs out saying (and I dunno the translation) We Speak Polish!, the way ones here are "Habla Espanol." My grandparents/parents had to learn when they came here, and they expected to.

I guess I look at it this way: if I go to Nigeria, I wouldn't expect the people there to speak English to make it easier for me. I mean you wouldn't expect that, would you? If you're in France, and not in a tourist part, you wouldn't expect them to speak English to you. You'd have to learn the language. I would expect to have to learn the Nigerian language, or French, or find the limited people (maybe it's a lot, I don't know) who speak English. But if I wouldn't expect them to all learn English to help me (a foreigner) out, I just don't get why people coming to the US expect us all to speak their language when in the US, English is the main language.

And it's not just spanish anymore, it seems in this area I know several people whose parents (not old people either, like in their 40s) refuse to learn English, and then complain they can't get around or can't order food or ask directions or so on. This isn't Germany/Russia/South Africa, and as it's not, while I don't think people need to forget their language, I do think to an extent, it is catering to them for all of us to learn their languages because they don't learn english.

I guess, in my view of the world, if we're gonna do it for one language, we should do it for all of them. I guess that's where my problem lies. I would be TOTALLY fine with it if, in addition to companies putting out Habla Espanol signs, they also put out signs for other languages. If we're gonna all learn spanish and start hiring spanish-speaking personnel in our offices so that we can help the spanish clientelle.... well, what about the german clientelle? the polish clientelle? the nigerian clientelle? And yes I KNOW that the mexican/spanish/latino population in the US is increasing, but I guess I just don't think it's fair to the OTHER languages/nationality-groups that we'll all work to learn spanish and hire spanish receptionists and all that, when we don't do it for the rest of them. I wouldn't mind people complaining that we won't learn their language and it's hard for them to learn English - if we wouldn't learn ANY language - but it seems we have selected out a group of people (spanish people, IMO) where we find it perfectly acceptable to learn their language to help them get around, yet we turn our backs on everyone else. And I just don't think that's fair...

 

[Melissa]

Just in response to greychins..

1 not all spanish people are mexican and many get offended when being refered to as something other than what they are. Spanish and hispanic work just fine.
Now that said.. Not all of them feel they this country should conform to them.

When my mom and her parents came here from cuba their mentality was do speak and eat like americans and do as they do. My abuelo even signed up for the military because he wanted to fight for the country that gave him and his family their freedom. But you better believe they kept the culter in the house. They also believe its rude to speak spanish around people who don't understand. In this country or another.

Have anyone here ever had "non english speaking" person tell you that they were mad that no one spoke spanish? Probably not. They aren't mad for that. Most are upset after getting made fun of for trying and having an accent. They are publicly embarassed by the people they try to be like.

Also I know you would expect to go to another country and expect them to speak english but I'm sure you would get a dumb look on your face ask if someone does before you try to speak the language. Its easier and comfortable.

2 I think the reason it seems like only hispanic is because that population is bigger than other minorities. Its estimated that by 2010 or something like that, that the spanish speaking population will reach 52%. That's a big deal.

3 my work place doesn't care if you speak spanish. They wanna see that you speak some asian language or creole (sp?) Or something really foreign. If you speak something other than english or spanish you are pretty much guaranteed a job where I work.


Now my issue in the matter.. I don't care if someone wants to speak what ever language as long as someone shows the effort.. My problem is when people from country XYZ come here talking about how their country is so much better. It may or may not be. Not my place to decide but what are you(the collective..not you specific) doing here if XYZ is so much better.

 

[greychins]

I'm not trying to argue here, but I want to clarify.

I didn't say "spanish" people and leave it at that (in describing hispanics) because I have found that if you say "oh that person is spanish," or something of the sort, they get mad because they are mexican, or cuban-american, or so on. My mexican friend (whose parents actually came from Mexico) tells me "spanish" people come from "Spain." Hence, I probably should have just used the term "hispanic" - its more descriptive of the whole group.

Maybe I see the minority group of hispanics here, but I actually HAVE been told by one of my friends - my friend's parents went into an upscale popular restaurant once (with my friend, who speaks English) and she said that her parents knew how to say (in English) "we need someone a waiter who understand spanish" or something of that effect, because they don't want their daughter to have to order for them (although they let their daughter help them with the menu), and when the waiter said that no one there spoke spanish, the parents got mad, saying that (in spanish - this is per my friend's translation) the restaurant should cater to them because they were paying customers. It's that kind of thing that annoys me (I can't say I like her parents...).

Maybe that's not everyone. It's very possible that's not everyone - but that's just the people I run into, so that's all I know. I applaud the people who try, because that's all I ask. I understand it's hard to learn a new language - I can speak spanish reasonably too, but I get looks of amusement when I go into the Merry's Panaderia and ask for something specific. I know I look like an idiot, so I'm sure it's even worse for them, especially because English being hard to learn, but I honestly think some (note: some) of them just don't want to try. I think some of them really do come here and expect that people should just know their language so they can get around easily.

I have no problem with hispanics or any other nationality in general. It's when they expect priviledges that the rest of the people don't get that I have problems...

Also, with the work place. I'm in law school, and at least 50% of the jobs I apply for say "spanish proficiency preferred." The last one I applied for was with the defense office, defending criminals, because apparently a lot of them are hispanic. Now, we can talk about them getting arrested more than other races because of language barriers until we're blue in the face, but in the end, many of the people in the jail here don't speak much English, at least not enough to help them assist their counsel in a defense. And although I've interviewed for a few of these types of jobs, it seems the people who get the jobs are the ones that actually do know spanish.

I'm curious what job you work at that they would like you to speak a really "foreign" language?