Percentage of Pink White babies.

[Ash]

You seem to be getting confused as to what people are saying. Breeding to "The standard" doesn't always mean breeding back to "A" standard in some of the posts. They mean breeding to the standard that chinchillas are held to for showing.

Also, most of the GSC and CCC chinchillas who win shows and are mutes are, correct me if I'm wrong, out of a standard X mute pairing.

 

[Linda]

What organization were you doing percentages of to come up with your numbers? The reason I ask is, Empress and MCBA are totally different. There may be a grand show champion mutation at Empress, but it is not put up against the standards. Standards are a completely different, separate, show. The mutations at an Empress show never get into the standard show.

You've answered the question, but thank you for reminding me to put links and be more explicit for those who don't know. I only recently learned that MCBA does combined shows while Empress does two independent shows -- one for standards and one for mutes.

The data was all taken from the MCBA website in the show results. There aren't a lot of results posted, but the top four animals (best two males and best two females) are posted.

http://www.mutationchinchillas.com/

You look under "show info" and then "show results." You can then look at results by year.

Linda

 

[Linda]

There is debate about this, but some feel judging is based on a curve, and I tend to agree. Judges are really strict about judging standards, and tend to be a bit softer on the mutes, because there is that difference in quality.

Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. A first place animal should be an ideal animal - for it's color for what we (breeders/ranchers collectively) currently have. In other words, a first place sapphire will be one of the best examples of a sapphire to have been produced this year. However, I do not expect a first place sapphire to hold a candle to a second place standard. Some take fault with this kind of judging which I understand, but I feel that if all chins were judged without that kind of a curve, it would dampen the efforts of those of us trying hard to improve the mutes, and kind of slaughter the perception of which animals should be bred. Why bother if the best sapphires I produce place only third? If no sapphires are taking firsts or better, how do I know which ones to use in my herd to keep improving them? So I'm all for this curve, but I know some feel the judges should be equally hard on all chins, mute or not.

I have seen judging on a curve in other species too. The concern is that the standard no longer represents the "ideal" which is what most standards are written for. The standards become a relative standard that changes based on what is currently being bred and on who is judging and how their breeding program is doing with that mutation. It also means that, using your example, someone who is breeding and improving sapphires may keep getting the same award year after year even if their animals are improving over time. They really have no gage of whether or not their breeding program is going in the right direction and whether their animals are improving. Sadly, they also don't know how their breeding program compares to the breeding programs of others breeding other mutes.

There are other ways clubs reward those breeding the newer mutations like having a different class for mutations that aren't as popular, are still being developed, or just aren't as easy to win with. Otherwise, as you say, those mutations tend to languish. If you do another class yet judge the animals to the ideal, the breeder can see by the increases in score/award whether their breeding program is going in the right direction or not and has a real comparison to the ideal standard. You then avoid this problem: "However, I do not expect a first place sapphire to hold a candle to a second place standard."

Linda

 

[Riven]

They are kits, not pups.

Thank you Peggy, this drives me nuts, it makes me wonder if people can't know what the babies are called if they've done much research on breeding at all...

I have a pink white male that gives me a pink white 90% of the time, even with a standard. It is all about genetics. You can pair a pink white with a **** beige and only get a hetero beige every time.

In the end it's about quality, not pedigree, because a standard out of pure standard lines does not necessarily mean a better animal, it all depends on the genetics.

 

[Linda]

Linda - They are kits, not pups. Pups are hammies, kits are chin bebbies.

Thank you Peggy, this drives me nuts, it makes me wonder if people can't know what the babies are called if they've done much research on breeding at all...

The assumption that someone who uses "pups" and not "kits" hasn't done research on breeding is a really interesting assumption.

It has been very interesting to see the differences in chins and the other small animal species more commonly kept as pets, and I think some of the differences stem from different approaches. Most other small animal species do a lot together (rats and mice, hamsters, guinea pigs, and even rabbits). We are much more focused on Joe Q. Public. The various groups meet each other at public educational displays when doing fairs, expos, 4H events, etc. where we make a significant effort to educate the public in an effort to improve the lives of the animals in their hands. We visit each other's booths and ask about their species/breeds so we know just a bit more when we tell someone that our species is not best for their circumstances and to perhaps consider x, y, or z.

We do joint shows periodically and get to see and better understand how we each judge -- the similarities and the differences. We work together on big rescue events like when Petsmart abandoned 500+ small animals in the Ventura shelter and on the So Cal rescue system. We talk about common illnesses, good vets, where to get quality feed or cages, etc.

We are also much more international. Not only do our forums usually have members from multiple countries and continents, but we trade animals with clubs or groups in other countries. We know their standards and try to learn about their judging systems and incorporate anything that can make ours more efficient.

You can expect me again to accidentally call chin babies "pups" (and hamster babies "kits"). The English language just isn't very logical when rodent babies range from kittens, to kits, and pups (plus probably a few others). In the scope of things, it just doesn't seem like something to get too worried about. Then again, I'm used to our international friends calling hamster babies just about everything under the sun, but as long as the meaning is understandable...

Linda

 

[Becky]

I think the problem is, Linda, that you seem to be arguing about what you are told because it doesn't match what you know about other animals.

I don't mean to be rude, but there is a lot of good information in this thread (although it has little to do with the original post). If you truly want to learn about chinchillas, then listen to what people are telling you and forget about other animals. I can tell that you are knowledgeable about hamsters and such, but it has nothing to do with this forum or chinchillas. I doubt I'm the only one that skips through most of your posts because they are irrelevant.

 

[Ash]

There are plenty of avenues to help teach about chinchillas, the problem is people don't take the time to research it. Field days, shows, meetings, etc. They're open to the public for learning. So you can't say that the chinchilla industry doesn't put itself out there. It seems like because of this, you somehow feel they are a "snobbier" industry. Guess what, you're not going to be able to take chinchillas to a 4H show in the middle of August when the heat index is 100*F or you're going to kill them.

Also, if you haven't noticed, we have Canadian memebers, as well as members from Ireland and other parts of Europe, China, etc. The reason chins aren't very popular in other countries is because those countries don't easily allow for proper keepment of the animals.

Linda, I'm starting to think you really don't care to learn and are nothing but a troll. You want to do nothing but compare apples to oranges when it comes to chins vs hamster/rabbits/rats/etc.

 

[ticklechin]

Chins have not been "pets" as long as hamsters, rats, rabbits ect, so to try to put them in the same mold as those animals as far a owner support at this point in time is not appropriate.

 

[Linda]

Chins have not been "pets" as long as hamsters, rats, rabbits ect, so to try to put them in the same mold as those animals as far a owner support at this point in time is not appropriate.

Chins are readily available to people today and are increasingly being purchased at pet stores and through Craigslist. And in my area, buying from a breeder means making the trip to Valley View. Among the "normal" pet owners I know, they're not sure where else to go to purchase a chin. Finding good breeders is not easy, and you don't find them through the avenues you find other small animal breeders.

I have little doubt in my area that there are far more backyard/casual breeders than show breeders. Really the only model accepted in the show community is to find a rancher to mentor you, buy their animals, and do what they tell you to do. To learn beyond that rancher, drive hundreds of miles to attend a show. It's not hard to see why few breeders follow that path. Around here among "normal" pet people, Valley View has a very good reputation. Bowens is only a few hours from them, but except for this list, I haven't found many people who have heard of them let alone purchased from them. They much prefer Valley View.

The cycle most other small animals have gone through is almost assuredly hitting chins. As more and more people buy and breed from the easy-to-find avenues like pet stores and Craigslist, the overall quality and health of the animals decreases dramatically. More and more problems crop up in the animals, but people continue to breed them and just accept the problems as part of the process. More and more unwanted and unhealthy animals get dumped on the shelters and rescues. And it becomes pretty much impossible to reverse the trend and get enough healthy animals into the system to even make a dent.

Chins are still on the front end of that curve, but given the extremely easy availability of all colors right now in the backyard breeding system, I suspect they'll move through the curve much faster than other small animals have. The demand is out there by the public for more information in the normal small animal channels. Saying it's too early to expect chin people to use the existing channels is, in my opinion, counter-productive to the chins themselves, but you're right, that's the current view. Right now the education channels set up mean driving hundreds of miles which few people (owners or breeders) are going to do. Taking that information to the demand will reach a dramatically greater population and improve the quality of life of many chins. And infusing the current system with quality animals and information will help them get propagated through that system which already exists and is doing a booming business.

It will be interesting over the next decade to see how the chin industry changes.
Linda

 

[threewingedfury]

There are many responsible hobby breeders that I can think of in the CA area. The thing is, if you want to be a responsible breeder, you're going to have to drive distances, go to shows and learn to deal with the fact that you can't get all of your chins from your town. Over 80% of my chins are from Ohio, Michigan and NY. When I'm looking to purchase chins, I don't even really look at distances, unless it's 20 or so hrs away and I know it's not reasonable. If there's something I find that I want, I'll get it, no matter the distance.

One thing that I think you're going to have to learn is - chins are always going to be pushed by the pelt industry. That's how this whole thing started. The pet trade is VERY new. We can educate people through forums, shows, seminars, etc, but even the pet people have to realize what the chinchilla industry is about. Without teaching these people what quality chinchillas are, they're going to continue backyard breeding petstore animals. There is so much to be learned from ranchers that there really is no need for fairs that explain how to take care of a chin. Do you know how stressful that is on a chinchilla? To have hundreds of kids poking at it in stange new scenery? The problem is that people don't care to educate themselves and find out about the chin shows, or they question everything there is about the chin industry. It takes a lot time to realize the differences in other animals, but there are many people who are here to help you.

Linda - Being a sugar glider breeder, I face a LOT of differences in being a chin breeder and I really want to question some of the practices based on what I've learned from chins, but I REALLY get shut out of the glider community when I start so I've learned to just educate myself by reading forums, talking to other breeders who have been doing this for years and just paying as much attention as possible. Gliders don't have shows - they have get togethers. There's no such thing as a quality sugar glider - glider breeders care about temperament and health. Most will stick as many colors as they can together as long as they can get pretty gliders - thats why we end up with WFB White Tip Mosaic 50% cremino, 25% leu, 12.5% platinum hets - they're just a mess. Many breed for color, because there is no standard to breeding. The glider community pushes vet care like there is NO TOMORROW with gliders - when you get a new glider, you take it to the vet. It should have 6 month checkups, etc. Completely different from the chin community. One thing that shocked me though with the gliders is the attitude towards breeding. The community expects all pairs/trios/quads etc to never be separated unless fights or something drastic occurs. I have a WFB male paired with a classic gray that only threw grays for me. I also didn't like the yellow on his belly from his scent gland, it REALLY bothered me, because I'm used to white bellied chins - so I figured I would just try a different pairing. Oh boy, do you know how many people I have in the community against me now for wanting to separate a pair? There are quite a few breeders who I've had LONG talks with to just prove that I'm not trying to harm my gliders by OWNING them because I'm a chinchilla breeder that shows. They think that I'm pelting all of my chins just to pelt them, and because I pelt my chins after they die due to natural causes or illness to keep the pelt for my own sake, I'm a horrible person and that I can't be a proper glider owner. Gliders are all considered pets in their eyes, where as in the chin community, when you have an animal that doesn't breed or that isn't the best quality, you either pet it out or your switch a pairing. In the glider community you neuter the male and keep the pair until it dies as pets - you don't go off selling the pair as they are your "pets" and if you do, it's a big no no and you're looked at as a mill breeder.

There are so many differences that we just have to learn to conform to each community and to deal with it. If we don't, then you're looked at as an outcast or an irresponsible breeder/pet owner. We don't mind answering questions, but when you shut down what ranchers and hobby breeders with experience have learned and tried to teach for years, then what's the point of even trying to learn if you're going to argue against it? I would stop comparing hamsters to chins. Just realize that they are completely different entities and that you must keep them separate. I have to do this with the gliders - it's tough, but it's life.

 

[tunes]

And in my area, buying from a breeder means making the trip to Valley View.

No it doesn't. It means you're not willing to go to a better breeder because it's not convenient for you. I drove 16 hours one way to buy chins, and I'll do it again if the need arises. You won't die if you have to get in your car and drive. People do it all the time.

Finding good breeders is not easy, and you don't find them through the avenues you find other small animal breeders.

How would you know? All you talk about is hamsters. There are plenty of good breeders who have chins, and they are hardly hiding under rocks. Bowens Chinchillas is in California. I don't care where in California you are located, that would be a trip worth making if you really do want to breed quality chins and not just argue to argue.

I have little doubt in my area that there are far more backyard/casual breeders than show breeders. Really the only model accepted in the show community is to find a rancher to mentor you, buy their animals, and do what they tell you to do. To learn beyond that rancher, drive hundreds of miles to attend a show. It's not hard to see why few breeders follow that path. Around here among "normal" pet people, Valley View has a very good reputation. Bowens is only a few hours from them, but except for this list, I haven't found many people who have heard of them let alone purchased from them. They much prefer Valley View.

You are taking what you want out of the posts being given, and being deliberately obtuse about it. Nobody said the only way to do it was to find A rancher, buy THEIR animals, and do only what THEY say. If you only buy your animals from one rancher, you're an idiot. There are only so many lines in a herd, and so many offspring. Buying only from one breeder is almost as good as having a closed herd, which to me is senseless. If no one has heard of Bowen's in your neck of the woods, then they are nothing but backyard breeders. Anybody who knows anything about chins knows who Bowens Chinchilla/Gary Neubauer is.

Again, it sounds as though you would rather to go someone nearby because it's convenient, regardless of whether they have crap animals or not, than to put your butt in your car and drive a little distance to get good quality breeding stock. Why? Is gas THAT expensive in California? Is your time THAT valuable that you can't go a little farther afield?

The cycle most other small animals have gone through is almost assuredly hitting chins. As more and more people buy and breed from the easy-to-find avenues like pet stores and Craigslist, the overall quality and health of the animals decreases dramatically. More and more problems crop up in the animals, but people continue to breed them and just accept the problems as part of the process. More and more unwanted and unhealthy animals get dumped on the shelters and rescues. And it becomes pretty much impossible to reverse the trend and get enough healthy animals into the system to even make a dent.

Which is exactly why people in this thread, and all the others you ask the same questions over and over in, continue to try and get you to do this right. Don't add to the population of crap chinchillas (bad breeding, health issues, etc.) by buying from someone locally just because it's easier, regardless of what crap they sell. Go to a show. Surely you can manage to drive to at least one, can't you? With all the time and effort you put into telling us how much you know about hamsters, you could have attended a show. Check the websites, check the show section here. I'm sure you can find time to attend at least one show so you can speak intelligently and in an informed manner about chins (not hamsters, because frankly, nobody cares) and then maybe your words will carry weight instead of just annoy people.

Right now the education channels set up mean driving hundreds of miles which few people (owners or breeders) are going to do. Taking that information to the demand will reach a dramatically greater population and improve the quality of life of many chins. And infusing the current system with quality animals and information will help them get propagated through that system which already exists and is doing a booming business.

I think you're wrong. I think pretty much all information you can get through a pet store, which let's face it is the venue where most people turn to for the pet information, is crap, regardless of the species. You're confusing wanting to be a breeder of quality chins with being a pet chin owner. Pet chin owners are actually (usually) quite rabid in wanting to learn about their chins and search out the information to find out what to feed, what to bed them on, what toys are safe, etc. This forum is largely pet owners, with breeders thrown in the mix. It's the back yard, junk breeders that don't want to expend the energy to learn how to do it right. Their goal is to make $25.00 off or their offspring from the $50 to $125.00 chins they picked up at a rescue or a pet store so that they could start their breeding empire.

There isn't a pet owner on this forum who argues against how to care for their pet chins they way you seem determined to do about finding a mentor, attending a show, and buying quality animals. Why? What is the point to asking questions if you are only going to argue every single answer given? No wonder you don't want to go to a mentor. You'd just talk them to death about hamsters and not learn a thing!

Becky made a good point, you ignored it. I asked you questions in another thread about what kind of breeder you wanted to be, when you were so blase` about what happens to a chin after it leaves you, and you ignored that too. Why do you continue to harp back on the same thing ad nauseum, but won't answer questions or comments that are actually pertain to the discussion? As Becky said, it just makes people want to ignore what you post and not answer your questions at all.

 

[Whimsy]

Is it my imagination, or has this thread gotten off topic?
Let's see....something about pinkwhite genetics, right?
Not breeder bashing or vocabulary correcting?
This forum certainly isn't about attacking any single individual. As I understand the rules, that is supposed to be for private messages, and our mods and admins are the shining examples of how to properly conduct ourselves on these forums.
For shame people.

So, with that, the homopinkwhite is an interesting goal to aspire to. But I'm afraid will get plenty of finger pointing and snickering among those who recognize the serious implications of mute to mute to mute breeding.

 

[tunes]

Whimsy - You are not a mod or an admin on this forum, so don't self-police. Feel free to hit the (!) button if you have a problem with a thread. People who self-police receive infractions and warnings.

Linda continuously takes threads off topic and turns them into this mess, instead of starting her own thread with these questions, so she is being answered in kind. I've tried separating out the stuff she brings up into other threads, and it is just confusing as heck. It's easier to just continue the discussion where it is. Weew got what information he needed, and I don't see him complaining.

 

[6Dusters]

How the heck did Linda get to hijack this thread? :hmmm:
Yeah.......I know its off topic.

 

[chinchillalover0927]

No it doesn't. It means you're not willing to go to a better breeder because it's not convenient for you. I drove 16 hours one way to buy chins, and I'll do it again if the need arises. You won't die if you have to get in your car and drive. People do it all the time.



How would you know? All you talk about is hamsters. There are plenty of good breeders who have chins, and they are hardly hiding under rocks. Bowens Chinchillas is in California. I don't care where in California you are located, that would be a trip worth making if you really do want to breed quality chins and not just argue to argue.



You are taking what you want out of the posts being given, and being deliberately obtuse about it. Nobody said the only way to do it was to find A rancher, buy THEIR animals, and do only what THEY say. If you only buy your animals from one rancher, you're an idiot. There are only so many lines in a herd, and so many offspring. Buying only from one breeder is almost as good as having a closed herd, which to me is senseless. If no one has heard of Bowen's in your neck of the woods, then they are nothing but backyard breeders. Anybody who knows anything about chins knows who Bowens Chinchilla/Gary Neubauer is.

Again, it sounds as though you would rather to go someone nearby because it's convenient, regardless of whether they have crap animals or not, than to put your butt in your car and drive a little distance to get good quality breeding stock. Why? Is gas THAT expensive in California? Is your time THAT valuable that you can't go a little farther afield?



Which is exactly why people in this thread, and all the others you ask the same questions over and over in, continue to try and get you to do this right. Don't add to the population of crap chinchillas (bad breeding, health issues, etc.) by buying from someone locally just because it's easier, regardless of what crap they sell. Go to a show. Surely you can manage to drive to at least one, can't you? With all the time and effort you put into telling us how much you know about hamsters, you could have attended a show. Check the websites, check the show section here. I'm sure you can find time to attend at least one show so you can speak intelligently and in an informed manner about chins (not hamsters, because frankly, nobody cares) and then maybe your words will carry weight instead of just annoy people.



I think you're wrong. I think pretty much all information you can get through a pet store, which let's face it is the venue where most people turn to for the pet information, is crap, regardless of the species. You're confusing wanting to be a breeder of quality chins with being a pet chin owner. Pet chin owners are actually (usually) quite rabid in wanting to learn about their chins and search out the information to find out what to feed, what to bed them on, what toys are safe, etc. This forum is largely pet owners, with breeders thrown in the mix. It's the back yard, junk breeders that don't want to expend the energy to learn how to do it right. Their goal is to make $25.00 off or their offspring from the $50 to $125.00 chins they picked up at a rescue or a pet store so that they could start their breeding empire.

There isn't a pet owner on this forum who argues against how to care for their pet chins they way you seem determined to do about finding a mentor, attending a show, and buying quality animals. Why? What is the point to asking questions if you are only going to argue every single answer given? No wonder you don't want to go to a mentor. You'd just talk them to death about hamsters and not learn a thing!

Becky made a good point, you ignored it. I asked you questions in another thread about what kind of breeder you wanted to be, when you were so blase` about what happens to a chin after it leaves you, and you ignored that too. Why do you continue to harp back on the same thing ad nauseum, but won't answer questions or comments that are actually pertain to the discussion? As Becky said, it just makes people want to ignore what you post and not answer your questions at all.

these are all very good points...when we started out with chins, they were from pet stores, clist etc..by being on this site i have learned reasons why not to breed them, to better your herd, to improve the breed....and to me i dont see why you cant drive distances to get quality chins... you know how i got mine?? driving 3 hours to a reputable breeder getting chins that she had bred and also chins she had shipped to her home from another breeder states away, then driving 3 hours back home..... so if you honestly wanted to improve to breed, you would find a way to get nicer chins.....we did, and we are more than happy with our improvement....

 

[RDZCRanch]

See...there are plenty of good ranchers that aren't a great distance away in California. If you stop asking the hamster people where to find chin people and actually ask members on this forum you might get somewhere. You keep saying "all the people I talk to" and how they don't have the information. You are obviously NOT talking to the correct people because I've had to correct your information on So Cal breeders and California shows numerous times.

You continue to bring up the Pet Expo and how we just HAVE to set up a booth there. I spent an entire day there one year at the bunny bunch booth educating all of the volunteers on chinchillas. I also corrected the information on their forms and also had to explain that the temperature in the building was too high for the chinchilla they had there. To get to my point...this information was not received well. The so knowledgeable bunny bunch basically told me to shove it and not tell people what to do with their chinchillas. The next year I was at the Expo none of the information I gave them was on the forms, nothing had been corrected except not having a chin on display. The next year after that the Expo was much too hot for a dog, cat or rabbit let alone a chinchilla! The Pet Expo is not this wonderful environment you keep painting it to be. They have a very select group of people that have their way of doing things in the rodent barn and they don't want to hear anyone else giving information.

I'm in southern california and have offered my help to you on numerous occasions and you've rebuffed all of my offers or simply stop responding when it becomes convenient to you. Valley View is definitely not the only option. I have chinchillas from Bowen that are ten times the quality you will find there and there are also a lot of opportunities to get animals from other ranchers across the states. You can always talk to more people in the California area and get a bunch of people that want chins from a select breeder. Then we usually all talk to that breeder and have animals shipped in. It's cheaper because we split the shipping and we all get the animals we want...from somewhere other than Valley View.

You have multiple carpool options to go to shows since there are quite a few of us in the So Cal area that travel to shows. You can also set up a carpool to go visit Gary and Margot at the Bowen Chinchilla ranch. So far all I have seen is your attempt to find information directly from this forum or the internet which isn't going to work and is plain lazy.

To me it seems like you are just making excuse after excuse to breed how you want to breed which doesn't seem to be for show or quality. If you truly want to breed the right way for healthy animals you will make the effort to go to shows or visit other breeders or ranchers.

 

[saphire]

Wow!

I am boggled, If one wants to be a responsible breeder, show animals why would you think of comparing the species.

I am a responsbile chinchilla hobby breeder.
When I started I certainly didn't compare them to rabbits, or other. It's the chinchilla I am dealing with.

I am from Québec and have driven to the Ryersons in Ohio 13hrs, Woods in Pennylvania 10hrs, Thunderbay Ontario 24hrs to get good animals, for where I am located most are backyard breeders. We are 2-3 very small responsible hobby breeders. So I find that unless you have no way of transportation, it's a sad excuse that one would limit himself to one specific area.

I have attended shows even when I do not have animals to show, and hope to attend more than 2 a year to understand more, improve, and upgrade my herd cause I care. I am the one who has chosen to breed, and I refuse to put their lives at stak by comparing and possibly making a mistake instead of hearing what is being said.

I am and have been learning alot with this forum by keeping my ears and eyes opened.

 

[mishalaa]

I went to a "rodent fest" pet expo two years ago. I made up a cage to show people what a pet chin's cage could look like, made up 150 pamphlets that I designed and paid for to hand out, and had a chin in my demo cage so people could see a real live chin. Before I paid for the table, I asked if the hall was air conditioned and was told it was.

Not only was I basically ignored by all the people there, who mostly came to see the rats, but I wasn't even put on the list of exhibitors or given a nametag despite having paid for the table a full month before the expo. If I hadn't shown up an hour early to help set up - as I am accustomed to doing with chin shows - I probably wouldn't have gotten my table. Apparently, the organizers forgot about me because I was a chin breeder, not a rat breeder that they were familiar with.

My chin hid in his house all day, and after a couple hours, it was way too hot to keep him there any longer, so I left and have not been back since.

Everything everyone has said in this thread has accurately described how things are done. If you feel things should be done differently, you're welcome to start your own organization and put on your own shows.

 

[ticklechin]

CAchins, though I don't agree with everything they say, does put on education days in the the Tri-county area of the bay area at several venues, they also have a yearly health day at the vet, Chins-to-go did the State Fair for the last couple of years with a booth, so there are those out there in CA who are trying to educate, maybe you need to start something in Socal rather than complaining there is nothing.

 

[weew]

How the heck did Linda get to hijack this thread? :hmmm:
Yeah.......I know its off topic.

She did not hijack the thread, she is just bring her opinion, and other coming as well to give they opinion.