Norwood needs your help! RE: kit

[6Dusters]

Breeders and ranchers I need your help.
As many of you are already aware I have a single kit born last Sat. She is now 9 days old.

Here is my kits daily log:
Days one: too weak to nurse and laying on side. I started hand feeding her and she is up and thriving hours later.
Days two and three I see her latched on and don't hand feed. By day 4 she is not gaining and I start handfeeding her again. She is gaining the recomended 2 to 3 grams per day. Mom is caring for her. Then the night of day 7 ( one week mark ) I get up in the night and her head is tilted. Tilted as if she is looking up at the ceiling. And still remains that way. When placed on the floor she walks to the left. Not complete circles. Just left.
No vets could be found Sunday. I got her in today to see my vet at noonish.

My vet doesn't have alot of experience with chins. Just mine if I were to guess. He mentions she is not in pain when the neck is moved to correct position. No wincing felt. Said wincing would be a common reaction to an injury of the neck. Can't see really deep into left ear but looks good with no visible problem. Heart is good. Brought in weight log. He asks if this weight gain is good. I tell him yes. ( birth weight was 50 and she is now 62 and gaining ) He asks if she has asiprated. Answer: no
I asked him to help me examine moms nipples. She is dry. No suprise there. Kit still latches on though.

Vet is not sure what to do. Mentions that in adult rodents this problem would more then likely a vestibular problem. Which would be a problem with the inner ear. He tries to contact specialists with no success. Said he will continue to try back with them later in the day. Remember its noonish.
So I recomend treating it with an antibiotic. He says it will not hurt.
He prescibes SMZ suspension. Which is SULFAMETHOXAZOLE. Dosage: .04cc every twelve hours. I asked him how long it could be before I would notice a result if this were the problem. He said in adult rodents some weeks.

So.....vet says it is NOT a common occurrence having a newborn with inner ear problems. Vet wants to know if a "dry mother" has any impact on a kits health. ( I told him I didn't think so and reported that many of you have great success with handfeeding through weaning of healthy kits )

So breeders and ranchers I need your imput. I told the vet I will give him any results you all post here.
Kit is doing well other then the head remaining at a tilted side. Has energy to run around cage. I saw her test tasting hay while on the drive to the vets.

What stopped being her routine at the day 7 neck tilt: She still remains vocal just not as loud to mom or myself. She had been standing on hind legs to examine cage walls and now does not.

I will try and get a video this evening and post it on here when I can. Ask me any questions. If you want to call me and talk to me about her. Please send me a note through here or to [email protected]

Other things to add: This is my first time hand feeding a kit. I've had to do it twice with adult chins and did fine. I am using the canned goat milk and rice formula. This mother was bred at her last home and I have no idea if she was dry. I'm going to try and find the answer to that queston. This is the first time I've bred her.

 

[EMSChins]

Is it possible that there was neurological damage during delivery (ie. insufficiant oxygen), that might explain the weakness on day one but am not sure. Its an idea. Also I am pretty sure that antibiotics are not a good idea for kits but Dawn and peggy would know more about that.

 

[tunes]

I would contact Angie (chinvet on here) and ask her opinion. I have never had a kit born with a head tilt, but that doesn't mean it can't happen. I would more suspect neurological damage, possibly from being stepped/jumped on by mom or dad, or it's possible she climbed the side of the cage and landed wrong when she jumped down. It's also possible she developed an ear infection, which pretty much nobody knows the cause of.

While Sulfa is fine for kits, I would think if it's so severe that she is twisted to the point of looking up at the ceiling that the meds are not going to do a whole lot for her, even if it is an infection and not neurological. She's very young, her immune system is pretty much at zero, and she doesn't have a whole lot going for her to fight off an illness like an ear infection.

Are you positive she didn't aspirate? Would you know the signs if she did? I have a kit here that is getting hand fed and he has had milk run out of his nose because he latches onto the bottle and drinks too fast. You would think it would cause aspiration, but he's fine, just a hog.

 

[6Dusters]

She acted just like any other kit once she started being hand fed the first day. The neck problem came at day 7.

Peggy she could have fallen. That passed my mind too. Only time I saw her climb was just standing up on the sides and not physically going up the sides. The cage has about 2 1/2 inches of bedding in the cage with the feed bowl in the middle away from the edges. I'm also thinking mom just stepped on her wrong. Mom has been kacking from the start about latching on. Still does once in a while despite being dry. I know the kit isn't hungry as I double check with that extra drop just before returning her to the cage.

I am not aware of any aspiration. No coughing....nothing out of the nose. No accidental drops near the nose area.

 

[Godins Chinchillas]

I'm with Tunes on this about contacting Angie.

To be honest-I'm not surprised you are writing this now Alex. I had a bad feeling about this kit right from the get go. My first thoughts when you mentioned she was lethargic and weak was she took too long to get out and suffered some type of brain injury from lack of oxygen. Did you see her being born or just found the kit later on in the day. I guess I'm a little surprised, if the above is the reason, is she is just starting to show neurologic disfunction. If it is not the above cause I would think it was from an injury caused by mom (jumping around and landed on her).

In my experience, and I know alot of people are not going to agree with me, but in the cases I have had of chins (including babies) that have neuro issues and/or those babies born with the clicking sound in the chest and die shortly after, I give them dexamethasone injection. It just seems to work for me. I make sure they eat and I never give it more than 3 days. In the clicking babies-I find that dexamethasone helps mature the lungs quickly. Out of 6 babies that had clicking or neuro issues-5 survived/got better. The 6th I didn't treat quickly enough. In the neuro cases it has helped with inflammation in the spinal cord. That is just my experience and I know alot of people do not approve of steriod use in chinchillas.

 

[ticklechin]

Is dexamethasone a steroid?

 

[Kalandra]

Yes, that is a glucosteriod. http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&S=0&C=0&A=533

 

[ticklechin]

http://www.chins-n-hedgies.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9985

 

[VolunteerChin22]

Jessica, have the babies you gave this to grown out and had any later side effects/deaths/abnormalities?

 

[RDZCRanch]

In my experience, and I know alot of people are not going to agree with me, but in the cases I have had of chins (including babies) that have neuro issues and/or those babies born with the clicking sound in the chest and die shortly after, I give them dexamethasone injection. It just seems to work for me. I make sure they eat and I never give it more than 3 days. In the clicking babies-I find that dexamethasone helps mature the lungs quickly. Out of 6 babies that had clicking or neuro issues-5 survived/got better. The 6th I didn't treat quickly enough. In the neuro cases it has helped with inflammation in the spinal cord. That is just my experience and I know alot of people do not approve of steriod use in chinchillas.

From the vets I talked to, you shouldn't use steroids in the eyes of chinchillas, but steroid shots given in needy cases hasn't caused harm. Personally, I have used sulfa in clicking lung cases and it has cured the babies.

I don't have anything to add, Alex, but best of luck. I hope you can figure out something though it does sound like she's at an advanced stage.

 

[Godins Chinchillas]

http://www.chins-n-hedgies.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9985

like I said- I know ALOT of others would not agree with me but this is my opinion and what has worked for me in the past. Please don't slam me for using medications under the advice of 4 of my vets past/present. I am not the typical pet owner/breeder. I have years of experience in the veterinary field and am well aware of complications and what to look for.

We have also used it 4 times in our pet hamster throughout it's lifetime and have never seen any ill effects of dexamethasone and she lived to be 2.5 yrs old.

This is just my experience, my opinion, and my thoughts. Alex asked for everyone's advice/help.

Jessica

 

[Godins Chinchillas]

Jessica, have the babies you gave this to grown out and had any later side effects/deaths/abnormalities?

None what so ever. They all did excellent on it.

Jessica

 

[6Dusters]

Thanks everyone.
Jessica I found her. Didn't see her born.
Hey Jess....how much of the dexamethasone did you give a kit? I see you used it for three days.

I did start her on the antibiotic today. I will also run the steriod by the vet. I know he is going to get back to me with anything he finds.
I started to work with stretching motions of the neck. Not much else I can do. She is quite a happy kit. Still continues to eat well. Guess time will tell.
I will keep you all posted. Thanks again.

 

[Godins Chinchillas]

This is based on vin.com (veterinary information network - a site my husband frequents often when he has questions or needs resources). This is the dose I use and it is a very very tiny amount.

"Mice, rats, gerbils, hamsters, Guinea pigs, chinchillas: 0.6 mg/kg IM (as an antiinflammatory). (Adamcak and Otten 2000)"

"Overdosage/Acute Toxicity

Glucocorticoids when given short-term are unlikely to cause significant harmful effects, even in massive dosages. One incidence of a dog developing acute CNS effects after accidental ingestion of glucocorticoids has been reported. Should clinical signs occur, use supportive treatment if required.

Chronic usage of glucocorticoids can lead to serious adverse effects."

The above info comes from the Plumb veterinary manual on vin.com If you anybody wants more info on it let me know and I can copy and paste.

I think everyone needs to know in regards to any type of medication is you need to weigh the risks vs the benefits of using that particular drug.

Anyways-best wishes Alex. I hope she gets better soon in what ever you decide to do.

 

[starleomach]

IMPO - Even things that are "not recomended" can be tried in cases where nothing else has worked. When King prolapsed we went to some what could be considered odd and even frowned upon methods when he hadnt pooped in over a week. It has now been a year and a half and he is alive and well. Some of the things we tried I didn't list here because of the reaction I knew I would get


Also try calling ranchers, grab an MCBA magazine and call..Dave and Chris woods may be out of chinchillas as in they got rid of their herd but they still help out. The big ranchers are a wealth of knowledge and not many come here. PM Jags too they may have an answer

 

[6Dusters]

Thank you Jessica.

Last night the vet called me back and the specialist he spoke with thought it could be middle ear as well. Said to treat with an antibiotic that would cover bacteria. ( we are now doing that )
Jessica I read your post to my vet by phone. He said you have been very lucky using it. Something not recomended. I made it clear to him that in your case it was something used as a last resort measure. He said he would try the med on this kit if I wanted. I told him at this point I'll wait it out to see if its inner ear. I also explained to him that chinchilla mothers are not really the brightest bulbs. And she could of stepped on her. Vet said if the mother stepped on her near the middle ear hard enough it could be injury too.

Kristy I had the very same thought about contacting a rancher. That was one of my plans today.
And I didn't get a video last night. I am tech challanged and my husband was busy. I'll shoot for late evening for the video.

Thank you all for your thoughts and help. Means alot to me right now.
Kit continues to thrive and is eating. Did see her turn in the opposite direction and run around the cage after her feeding this morning.
Thats all for now.......

 

[VolunteerChin22]

Would deafness cause a head tilt?

if it is an ear infection good luck with it - had a few here and was only able to sucessfully treat one, ironically in the youngest chin. Pretty sure we used a sulfur drug...id have to look up the name of it....

 

[ticklechin]

The OPs vet said you were very lucky and it is not recomended, but I can see the point if the kit is going to die anyway try it. All I did was post a thread by a breeder and vet who would not use steroids, its a public forum and people need to know this is not a usual treatment and also make sure they don't self vet at home using a drug like that.

like I said- I know ALOT of others would not agree with me but this is my opinion and what has worked for me in the past. Please don't slam me for using medications under the advice of 4 of my vets past/present. I am not the typical pet owner/breeder. I have years of experience in the veterinary field and am well aware of complications and what to look for.

We have also used it 4 times in our pet hamster throughout it's lifetime and have never seen any ill effects of dexamethasone and she lived to be 2.5 yrs old.

This is just my experience, my opinion, and my thoughts. Alex asked for everyone's advice/help.

Jessica

 

[mark miller]

I think your on the right track treating the kit with antibiotic for possible ear infection. We are all very lucky on here that we have members like Jess, that not only voices an opinion, but also has a vet for a husband to get a professional opinion from. Also, wanted to mention that I have had 2 very similar occurances with kits here in my years of breeding. Both of my cases were traced to a bite on the skull from birthing complications. You might want to really inspect the top of the kits head for a bite mark or scar. Good luck with him!

 

[Godins Chinchillas]

I know Dawn and I'm not upset and I hope I didn't come across that way. I do think people need to be aware that with ANY drug there are risks and benefits.

I was telling Alex through a pm this morning that Steve and I were having this discussion last night at the dinner table and I am going to just throw this out there.

Metacam has been known to cause renal failure in cats and should be used with caution. Metacam is contraindicated in animals that have liver and renal impairment. Would any of you still use it on your chins that had weight loss due to teeth issues? On all of the chins that I/Steve have necropsied for one reason or another one of my most common findings in a chin with weight loss is fatty liver. I am sure any chin that has teeth issues that is also suffering from weight loss we can probably find that he has some sort of liver impairment. Maybe not but maybe so. We don't know because we don't have the lab values to prove it otherwise. Would you still use metacam on them? **** ya-they are going to be very painful if we don't do something right? And vets don't have a problem prescribing it. Metacam gets broken down in the liver. So we chance the risk of further injuring the liver to take away the pain.

I think what I am getting at is there is risks and benefits in every drug. People need to be educated about everything when it comes to their pet. I certainly don't take things lightly when using it. I am very cautious. Knock on wood I have yet to have a problem with it.

I think Alex needs to do what's right for her pet. If she wants to take the wait and see approach with the antibiotic than she should. Does Steve think she has an inner ear problem- based on Alex's post and her vet's finding? No he doesn't. But he didn't exam the chin so he can't make that call. It will definately be interesting to see how she does with the antibiotic. Hopefully it is just an inner ear infection.

Alex, how long is she on the antibiotic for?