New On The Scene-EXPERT!

[Terbear24]

Yes as a smaller breeder I do feel like I get skipped over sometimes. But I also have worked hard to try and educate anyone that gets chins on me and talk to them to make sure they know that they can always call me with questions. And if I dont know the answer I usually come on here to find out!

 

[EMSChins]

I don't know, I guess I have had mostly positive experiences with buying from both small and large breeders. I feel that I have had good experiences selling as well, a few negatives but I think that comes with just about anything in life that you endeavor to do. I don't have an "I'm out to change the world" mentality so it is generally pretty easy for me to go with the flow. Have I had people not listen to my knowledge and advice - sure, but doesn't everyone have their own way that they need to find? I mean how many different ways are there to train a dog yet everyone feels that their way is the only way. For the most part I feel that if I tell someone everything that I know and they just retain a fraction of it, I have done my job. If they are willing to come back and ask me questions - even better.

I am not offended when the "big guys" get all the credit because honestly they paved the way for the rest of us. Can we improve on some of their methods - certainly! Can ours be improved upon? Absolutely!!! I think we all stand on the shoulders of others and I guess I am just too naive (and short) to really care all that much, after all I need all the height that I can get and welcome anyone teaching me more??? It's comfortable in my little world so I think I will stay here!

 

[Spoof]

"Large Breeders"....you mean all 5 of them.

lol

There is another Ronda on here that had these issues for years as well. 800 was never enough to be considered a "large breeder". She is very honest, but a few people who bought her animals and resold them have apparently not been.

I think there are a couple dozen herds over 500 in the united states still. Only a few actively show. Every once in awhile I run into someone who does large scale wholesaling or pelting. They don't bother with Empress/MCBA because there is no financial gain to doing so.

 

[halfstache]

I know of a very well known, very well respected "big boy" who made the comment once that he doesn't bother educating people, or if he does, doesn't care if they listen. When they kill their chin through stupidity, they will just come back and put more money in his pocket and buy another one.

Holy crap. Reading that made my stomach churn. How can someone who thinks that way ever fall asleep at night? Terrible, just terrible.

 

[tunes]

Halfstache – My comments weren’t meant to attack larger breeders. You will find just as bad, if not worse, conditions in some smaller breeders barns. That wasn’t the reason I made that comment, and it isn’t the reason Vixxen started this thread. Ranchers aren’t perfect, not by the standards pet folks set for sure, and not by many other standards as well. But people will choose them over a smaller breeder because someone mentioned their name as a “big guy.” That’s fine if that’s where you want to shop, but you may be missing out on some awfully nice animals from a hobbyist as well.

I’m going to throw Becky under a bus here. I consider Becky to be a big guy. I’ve been to her barn. It’s clean, it’s airy. The chins are dusted and well cared for. The runs are all wire with plenty of ventilation. It’s nice and cool. There were no dead/dying animals lying around. Becky consistently places well at shows and has beaten Shoots on the table (as did Miller’s with their standards at the Omaha show a few years ago, and they had a very small herd). She’s on the MCBA board. Did anybody up top consider going to her for chins when they were running to Ryerson’s and Shoots? I haven’t been to her website in a while. I don’t know if it’s all spanky with pictures of every armpit and toe on every chin in her barn. I couldn’t care a less anyway. If I want or need something, I email or call and say “I need/want this, what do you have?” She has never screwed me over with a lesser quality animal or a red tinted animal or in any other way. I got a beige male from her. He’s a big squish of a boy. She said “I had Randy look at him and he didn’t like his belly, so be sure to put him with a white.” And I did. She always tells me the pros and cons of each chin before she brings it. Isn’t that who you want to buy from? Isn’t that someone you would trust in your dealings with them? I know I do.

 

[Pookinaround]

I personally would not have had a problem buying from Becky, still don't as I am still looking for a bit of diversity in my herd so I am open to buying ANYONE'S quality animal now that I am learning more and more about who the different go to people are. I'd love to get one of Lemler's good beiges or one of Wendy Torgerson's ebonies as well. Point I want to re-interate and it's nothing personal against small breeders but for beginners I think it is simply easier to go to the bigger ranches because they are well known plain and simple. Whenever someone says they want to get into breeding chins automatically the first things you hear them being told is the importance of using quality animals and going to shows and I DO agree with that however why is it seeming that at least in this thread anyway you are darned if you do and darned if you don't in a way. New people are NOT going to automatically be aware of the quality smaller ranches. That knowledge will come through being an active participant in the chin community and I think that as with anything else that we purchase as consumers reputation and brand go hand in hand and yes awards and trophies are part of that. That is why they are awards and trophies which are given as recognition for accomplishment.

 

[Vyxxin]

Again, I digress...when these new people go to shows...or get directed to "quality" breeders for their founding stock...who do they purchase from? The "big boys" plain and simple. And, especially at a show, that's the place to check out the smaller breeder! Maybe not buy from them as a smaller breeder will often show many animals that they cannot afford to part with...but the newer people don't take not of who did what...they take not of who took the most trophies. Those are two separate animals there.

You want to know how I used to determine who to buy from? Shows were the easiest way for a 16yr old to get a good chin when she didn't have a drivers liscense I went to shows, looked over animals (with $500 in pocket) and picked out the ones I liked. If they were for sale (after THEN tracking down their owners) I'd buy them. If they were not, I would watch them go on the table...see how they did...and make mental note of the breeder.

I didn't show up at a show and run on over to Shoots, Ryerson, Ritterspach...and say "hey, what's for sale" I based my purchases on the animals, not the name. As far as "little guys" go these days not many local to me. The last batch of animals I purchased came from out of state. A breeder travelling locally enough, one I TRUSTED enough based on REPUTATION (not NAME) brought me what I asked for because they were headed through PA to a show. I could've just as easily (if not moreso) went over to Ohio on my own time and purchased from the big names. Had the money, had the transport...just preferred reputation over name. In the past few years I haven't purchased ANY animals from the big names. If the chin has a big name it's because it was purchased secondhand from a smaller name.

Peg, I agree with your perception of Becky...but even out where you live...do you hear all the mention of her? Even with all she's accomplished and the time she's been in? Honest question as I'm from a different part of the country...one state away from Ohio we get different name drops here. I think that's what kills me about most..."I know what I'm doing, I purchased from so and so big name rancher and they're blah blah blah with show awards" If I wasn't competitive in nature I'd have done away with shows years ago. They cost money, lots, and for what? To be told about what a good eye already knew. She's got a bit of off color, his belly isn't the greatest, she could use a bit more size...I get the purpose for newbies...but at this point in the game it'd be easier to have one knowledgeable rancher bring the best thing in their herd...say here's a nice chin and then rank all the others on the table accordingly so the noobs knew what to identify. LOL!

And Juanita...it must be very nice to live in your world indeed while I'm not trying to change the world...when people contact ME just to argue it gets old in a hurry. And as far as being thankful for those before us, I am thankful for the result and that's about it. I know how some of the big names got to where they are and it wasn't all the "hard work" it's cracked up to be. If you're standing on the shoulders of a person who's wasted anything in their path to get on top of the bodypile...I think that really sums it up.

 

[Pookinaround]

I don't think that is all necessarily true... After I went to the State College show back in April I was very impressed with Poetrue's animals so I checked out her website (again detailed with what she had available which I like and honestly who wouldn't). I saw an animal I wanted to buy from her and I contacted her about him and I had every intention of following through with the sale however for some reason we just simply had a hard time connecting. I don't know whether it was communication, logistics or just plain and simple how life works out sometimes but only for that reason the sale didn't happen.

I still think having a nice detailed website is important for smaller ranchers. It is so easy to do so why not..? Unless I am after a particluar type of animal from someone like Lemler who is known for her beiges, Silkrhein for their violets or Torgerson for her ebonies I am not going to waste time emailing a bunch of people who are far away only to be told they don't have this or that ESPECIALLY when smaller ranchers ARE obviously going to be keeping their best animals. And if I do email a smaller rancer for something specific like I mentioned before I want to have enough cash in hand BEFORE I do because I want something exceptionally good from them not just something they may have available. I'll be wanting a good animal from them so if I take the time to do that I will definitely be prepared to pay up for that quality I want obviously. So it is also a matter of timing as everyone cannot always afford the best animals when they actually do get offered for sale. Example this past weekend I was prepared to buy a VERY good quality animal from Shoots as I had been planning a trip there anyway to get breeder cages. However even he didn't have anything THAT good right now that he was willing to part with. So being a matter of timing and convienience are also factors to consider.

 

[EMSChins]

And Juanita...it must be very nice to live in your world indeed while I'm not trying to change the world...when people contact ME just to argue it gets old in a hurry. And as far as being thankful for those before us, I am thankful for the result and that's about it. I know how some of the big names got to where they are and it wasn't all the "hard work" it's cracked up to be. If you're standing on the shoulders of a person who's wasted anything in their path to get on top of the bodypile...I think that really sums it up.

Wow, this almost sounds personal when nothing that I wrote was directed towards anyone. It was simply my opinion and my experience which is what I thought you were asking for at the beginning of this thread. If you don't want to know others experiences and opinions if they differ from your own, maybe you should not ask specifically for them. Please refer to quote below.

So, am I the only one who's extremely tired of this? I'm not talking about people getting their new/first chinchilla from craigslist. No, I'm talking about the ones "smart" enough to go to a (usually) "big name breeder" (or one they think is of high repute) and are auto-experts?


ETA- Not trying to take ANYTHING away from the "big names" most of them have worked very hard to get where they are...just the same though, big doesn't mean they have better animals or that they're always the best people...it DOES lend way to a larger accumulation of knowledge but often these self experts haven't gained info from the big names, just animals...they get their INFO from BYB's and friends

 

[ticklechin]

New people are NOT going to automatically be aware of the quality smaller ranches. That knowledge will come through being an active participant in the chin community

This is why people should participate first, then buy chins. AND in my opinion actually own chins as pets for awhile to actually get to know the species norms without the stress of breeding. Not pointing fingers at the quoted person, I actually think they are trying to do the right thing.

 

[Pookinaround]

Also I want to add that I have been learning a lot from Ralph as well as Che and Juanita mentioned a good point to me a while back about an animal I am getting from her with regards to using eb carriers in eb lines because of concern for a potentially "dirty" belly. I didn't tell you Juanita but remember how I was initially thinking of putting Sitara with Pinto...well I have thought about what you said a while ago and now (provided she grows into a nice complimentary chin) I am intending to put her with a tov tan from Cheryl. So using this as an example I want to say that I am not just using the "big boys" and relying on that to establish lines in my herd. I am sorry if I am using too many personal examples in this thread but being new and all I do believe they are extremely relevant to the op's topic.

 

[VolunteerChin22]

Im going to expand this and add that it is concerning to me when I see new on the scene breeders buy exclusively from one big name person as well or thinking because they are buying from a big name that that qualifies them to start out working with recessives and get every color under the sun. To me that's running before you can walk.

 

[Vyxxin]

Juanita...you misunderstood my first line in reference to you. No offense was meant, I was seriously saying...a day with your mentality would probably do me some good I DO worry to much, DO try to for people to understand too much. If I gave my initial response and then let well enough alone this topic would probably not bother me as much.

The second part of my statement in reference to your mentioning those before us, I was not entirely disagree with you there either. I was just saying, KNOW the person you are trusting. You don't want to be let down. For example, stand on the shoulders of your husband and you know you'll be supported. Stand on the shoulders of someone you know very little about...they may intentionally drop ya! In advance, I know what your statement is meant to reference. It's not literal or in reference to support. It's in reference to building on solid foundations that were set many many years ago for us by the big names. BUT, not all big names did so with A) the intentions of having us build on that and B) helping us get solid footing.

 

[EMSChins]

Juanita...you misunderstood my first line in reference to you. No offense was meant, I was seriously saying...a day with your mentality would probably do me some good I DO worry to much, DO try to for people to understand too much. If I gave my initial response and then let well enough alone this topic would probably not bother me as much.

The second part of my statement in reference to your mentioning those before us, I was not entirely disagree with you there either. I was just saying, KNOW the person you are trusting. You don't want to be let down. For example, stand on the shoulders of your husband and you know you'll be supported. Stand on the shoulders of someone you know very little about...they may intentionally drop ya! In advance, I know what your statement is meant to reference. It's not literal or in reference to support. It's in reference to building on solid foundations that were set many many years ago for us by the big names. BUT, not all big names did so with A) the intentions of having us build on that and B) helping us get solid footing.

Thanks for the clarification - I must have read too much into it! As always the written word can lead us onto paths not intended. My apologies!

 

[6Dusters]

Oh what a great thread. Living here in "no where ville Virginia " left me on my own ( so to speak ) with my first quality chin purchases. I'll admit a few were not good. But lesson learned and those critters went onto pet homes.

But I continued on and made it happen. Special thanks to Jessica from Godins, Mish, and Alicyn of Sycamore chins. Without your trust I could not have done what I wanted to make possible. I made it to the Nationals this year with one animal I had not sold and took a 1A in the old gal class. Oh I was a nervous wreck that day. You just couldn't see it. I recieved one better then Ron's 1B beauty. Didn't go beyond that. But I did exactally what I set out to accomplish. KNOW WHAT I'M DOING!

I look forward to meeting more of you at the shows. I'm a bit of an introvert so you have to pull me out of my shell. Otherwise I'll sit there and remain quiet. And thanks Juantia, Tiffany, Alicyn and the cute girl from Poetrues for letting me pick your brains at times. Sorry Miss "P" that I cannot think of your name off the top of my head. Was nice talking eb with you at the Nationals.

 

[Godins Chinchillas]

I still think having a nice detailed website is important for smaller ranchers. It is so easy to do so why not..? .

I wish it was easy. I, for the life of me, cannot get a website going. Every time I do it ends with spyware. If someone wants to do it for me that would be great!!

 

[Pookinaround]

I am no computer genius by any means Jessica but I am currently working on mine. It is in it's super early beginning stages (it is one of those free ones). I have the "shell" there. So far I haven't experienced any spyware. I am still a long ways away from selling any babies yet though. A lot of times I will see people WITH already established websites give just minimal info. What I mean by "detailed" is I like to see pics of the parents, any awards they have won and of course a pic of the chin for sale. I don't see that happen as often as I like. And for the record I did look to see if you had a website long time ago too Jessica so I am glad you sold some animals on here. By the way I named the Liam and Lyric.

 

[tunes]

What I mean by "detailed" is I like to see pics of the parents, any awards they have won and of course a pic of the chin for sale. I don't see that happen as often as I like.

I will guarantee you, you will NEVER see that on Shoots, Ryerson's, JAGS, or any other large ranchers website. You might see that on a smaller breeders website, someone with 40 or less animals, but people with larger numbers just don't have the time to put that much into a website.

 

[Pookinaround]

No Shoots doesn't have it but Ryerson's DOES have a nice description along with a photo although I will say they haven't had much of a selection offered for a while now. I have looked at Jags and they have some photos and weights. Some animals listed on their sale page do not have prices listed but then again that is part of the reason I haven't contacted them to inquire about anything they have yet although at some point I wouldn't mind seeing what they have. It is just in the meantime I have been finding animals elsewhere. Although I would be more likely to buy from them if they had more info listed which is my point plus they are farther from me than are Ryerson and Shoots. Sometimes trying to get an animal home can be a challenge in and of itself so before I endeavor to try and even deal with that part I want to make sure the animal is worth the hassle.

 

[Riven]

I've seen "big breeders" buy from small breeders just to turn around and make more money off the sale. I've seen it happen to a breeder right off this site. I asked about two chins they had, the sale didn't line up, a month later I saw them for sale by a "big breeder" for twice as much. I felt bad for the original breeder, and maybe some people don't care, they're happy they made the sale, but I'd rather give a good deal to someone who's not going to turn around and try to double the money they spent just because they think they have a good name.

As I read this I thought about a lot of things I wanted to say... but I think Jessica summed it up here:

Having a "big" name or having tons of awards doesn't necessarily mean your the best or are the most ethical. And I'm with Vyxxin-have dealt with "big" name people only to see the "dirt". I'm not necessarily talking about crappy animals but seeing how they treat newbies and charge large prices for subpar animals, cheating on the table, health issues and how they dealt with them-for example knowing you have teeth issues but still use them in breeding, and so on.

As for all 5 of the large breeders... a lot of people simply can't front the money to set up a huge operation. Not to say that the big breeders aren't pillars in the chin community but like you said in your own post, all 5 of them... they're getting older and retiring or selling out for other reasons. When big pillars get weak, you reinforce them. If a smaller pillar goes out, the it's less of a blow than a big pillar. So why not support the smaller pillars who help support the chin world? But in the end it's about what they produce, not the names on the pedigrees. I could get 10 chins from the world's top chin producer, but that doesn't mean I'll reproduce that quality if I have poor pairings. In the end, the quality behind the name doesn't always carry on with the pedigree.