Nationals

[Spoof]

I've only seen totally white animals with pale ears and not beige mosaics.

Mosaic is any white animal regardless of base color. White and ebony, white and standard, white and beige. All range from heavily patterned to pure white. It's just that the minority who have cameras don't have the majority of animals. I've got quite a few colors on my page here. The titles are what you see in the pet industry and in no way reflect showing, since shows only really gear towards industry pelt matching.

I've heard it's each of these things but don't remember reading anywhere that multiple genes, let alone seven, had been identified.

That's because it doesn't matter to the industry to document it.

The homozygous form tends to be lighter which would mean it's harder for a homozygous beige to beat a heterozygous beige.

Not really, clarity and size beats out all when push comes to shove. Lighter animals are clearer and bluer than their darker counterparts.

 

[mishalaa]

But the MCBA did document it - and used to have a team responsible for evaluating new mutations. I believe coat color genetics and how the mutations behave should matter to the industry since uniformity for matching pelts is in such demand. I understand I'm in the minority on that though.

Hybrid is when two or more mutations are expressed simultaneously - in chinchillas it usually refers to coat colors other than standard (just as "mute" refers to any color chin other than standard - despite the fact that there are many more types of mutations other than coat color). Pink whites are a hybrid of beige and white; brown velvets a hybrid of beige and black; tan whites are hybrids of beige, ebony, and white; and so on.

 

[shuboyje]

They did evaluate mutations, but if you read the reports a lot of the work was never completed. On top of that although the individual mutations were evaluated, obviously that is not the situation we have today. The whole 7 genes things in kinda an outdated view. About 10 years ago when I got into all this, Ebonies were considered to be Tasco Blacks genetically, and people had theorized that it was accumulative in nature which caused the unpredictable behaviors. This of course was wrong, as the odds of 7(or really any number required for the behaviors we see) loci, all causing the same result in the phenotype, mutating at one time to create the Tasco Black is impossible. This realization is what led to the current view of Ebony as the mutt result of uncontrolled, undocumented cross breeding of any and all charcoal series mutes. That all lead us back to why the industry doesn't care. The industry wanted every hair black animals for the pelt market and didn't care how they got them. Genotype means nothing on a pelt. Then they marketed the ebony pelts, and found them to be poorly received because they lacked the "chinchilla" look. On top of that better results were found dying off color standard pelts. Now an industry that didn't care about genotype, really didn't give much of a darn about ebs until the pet owners and hobbiest came into the picture in the 90's. All of this left the jumbled mess that we call ebony that is still be unraveled as we speak.

 

[ann1]

Wow that was very educational and a very good read. Thanks guys

 

[Becky]

For clarification, a beige mosaic is a pink white. A pink white is a cross between a beige and a white. Some people use the term beige mosaic when the pink white shows spots of beige, but they are still pink whites.

 

[Linda]

The MCBA website states:

Shows with 50 or more entries as follows:
Class 1 - male to 7 months of age.
Class 2 - female to 7 months of age.
Class 3 - male 7 months of age and older.
Class 4 - female 7 months of age and older.

Does this mean that every color phase within every color has four classes? With each color having 4-6 color phases, that would give a huge number of classes. Or are these classes used for something else?

And I think I've seen references to winners of color phases competing for winner of the color, and then the winners of each color competing for Grand Show. They're the 1a and 1b winners. There appear to be two winners for each sex, so is there a 1a male, a 1b male, a 2a female, and a 2b female per color? And the 2009 Nationals didn't have classes 3 and 4?

And it appears trophies are given for the top three winners of each color (i.e. best white, best sapphire, best violet, etc.) most likely regardless of sex or age. Now the color trophies are "Breeder Trophies," so if I were to enter a chin that I didn't breed, would it not compete for these trophies? Or are these breeder trophies for those entering at least five chins in a color? (I've seen the another thread about these awards.) If the breeder trophies are for those entering five plus chins per color, are there color awards just for the single best chin of each color?

And some classes like male violet and all sapphires have no color winners. Does that mean none were entered or that potentially awards were withheld by the judges?

With there being a Champion Male and Champion Female of show, do those two compete for Grand Show or can Grand Show and Reserve Grand Show both be the same sex? Does each sex win Grand Show in about equal numbers over the years or does one sex tend to win more than the other?

In looking at the 2009 Nationals winners, I can see that Best Male, Best Female, and Grand Show all were grays first and black velvets second. That may just be coincidence. It must mean that both Grand Show awards went to the same sex, though. Is there a way from the numbering system for me to identify whether they were males or females?

To keep this thread semi-self-contained, here are the to awards.

Grand Show Champion Naturalle RBS V303 Shoots
Reserve Grand Show Black Velvet RBS T1612 Shoots
Champion Male of Show Naturalle RBS V795 Shoots
Reserve Champion Male Black Velvet RBS T1354 Shoots
Champion Female of Show Naturalle RBS V202 Shoots
Reserve Champion Female Black Velvet RBS T1612 Shoots

I'm guessing the RBS initials refer to Shoots and that all their chins start with those letters (their ranch prefix). The T and V numbers must not be their entry numbers nor the Shoots names/numbers, because none of the males or females has the same numbers as the Grand Show winners. What are the T and V numbers?
Linda

 

[threewingedfury]

Ok.. I'll take a stab. It's late so if I mix something up, someone correct me.

Does this mean that every color phase within every color has four classes? With each color having 4-6 color phases, that would give a huge number of classes. Or are these classes used for something else?

Yes, every color phase has 4 different classes. That’s why MCBA shows take so much time for classifying and larger shows don’t really have time to talk about each individual animal anymore. Sometimes there are 10+ animals in each class - sometimes there are none.

And I think I've seen references to winners of color phases competing for winner of the color, and then the winners of each color competing for Grand Show. They're the 1a and 1b winners. There appear to be two winners for each sex, so is there a 1a male, a 1b male, a 2a female, and a 2b female per color? And the 2009 Nationals didn't have classes 3 and 4?

You start out with winner for the class (if 1a or 1b) - then the class champions go against each other for color phase - then for color section - then for male/female of show - then grand show. There is no 2a or 2b, just a 2nd – You sometimes don’t have a 1a or a 1b – sometimes just a 2nd or 3rd place animal in the class. Just because an animal is the only one in the color phase doesn’t make it 1st place or above. You can go as low as 5th place, up to a 1st and then if the animal deserves a 1a or a 1b, it’s awarded. There aren’t always ‘winners’ as in color phase champions for each sex either. It really depends on the quality of the show. Nationals do have class 3 and 4… I’m not sure where you’re getting that information from?

And it appears trophies are given for the top three winners of each color (i.e. best white, best sapphire, best violet, etc.) most likely regardless of sex or age. Now the color trophies are "Breeder Trophies," so if I were to enter a chin that I didn't breed, would it not compete for these trophies?

Trophies aren’t normally given for color phase or color sections – they’re for the Grand Show, Reserve Grand Show, Male of Show, Female of Show, Reserve Male of Show and Reserve Female of Show. Below that ribbons are given. Remember, the classes are separated by age – in the end, all sexes and ages go up against each other for Grand Show.
If you entered an animal you didn’t breed, you wouldn’t be eligible for the breeder trophy for that animal. The points would be awarded to the breeder.

And some classes like male violet and all sapphires have no color winners. Does that mean none were entered or that potentially awards were withheld by the judges?

If I remember correctly – there were entries for both male violet and the sapphires at last year’s nationals but none were high enough to take color section awards. See, if a 1st place (not 1a or 1b) or 2nd place animal is the best in the class, it doesn’t move on. Sometimes 1a doesn't move on either depending on who it competes against for color phase champion.

With there being a Champion Male and Champion Female of show, do those two compete for Grand Show or can Grand Show and Reserve Grand Show both be the same sex? Does each sex win Grand Show in about equal numbers over the years or does one sex tend to win more than the other?

All of the color section champions compete for grand show, regardless of sex. Out of the best males, a champion male is selected. Same for the female. The Grand Show/Reserve Grand Show can be the same sex.

In looking at the 2009 Nationals winners, I can see that Best Male, Best Female, and Grand Show all were grays first and black velvets second. That may just be coincidence. It must mean that both Grand Show awards went to the same sex, though. Is there a way from the numbering system for me to identify whether they were males or females?

It just means that those grays and blacks were the best. This isn’t always the case that grays will end up Grand Shows. In fact, I have a Grand Show Nationals ebony from Whitewoods in my herd right now. As far as figuring out who is a male and who is a female - you should see who is what under the section winners.

I'm guessing the RBS initials refer to Shoots and that all their chins start with those letters (their ranch prefix). The T and V numbers must not be their entry numbers nor the Shoots names/numbers, because none of the males or females has the same numbers as the Grand Show winners. What are the T and V numbers?

R-BS is Ralph and Barbara Shoot’s ranch brand. My ranch brand is MTDY. All of my offspring would be labeled MTDY X1, X2, X3 – etc. The T and V stand for the years that the animals were born in. This year is X.

 

[kupcak]

wow what a great 'post' to come and read thank you to both the question'er and the answer'ers lol...

does anyone know of Chin shows in Ontario? (Canada) I would love to take my daughter if possible.

 

[mishalaa]

Does this mean that every color phase within every color has four classes? With each color having 4-6 color phases, that would give a huge number of classes. Or are these classes used for something else?

Yes, there are a huge number of classes. Not every class will have chins in it, though, so they get skipped. For example, there may not have been any female sapphires entered or young light beige males entered - so those classes are skipped.

And I think I've seen references to winners of color phases competing for winner of the color, and then the winners of each color competing for Grand Show. They're the 1a and 1b winners. There appear to be two winners for each sex, so is there a 1a male, a 1b male, a 2a female, and a 2b female per color? And the 2009 Nationals didn't have classes 3 and 4?

This is wrong, somehow, and I'm not sure where you got confused. There is no 2a, 2b. The chins in each class (of the many, many classes), are awarded 1st-5th place - or no award. Of the ones that win first place, the best in the class will win 1a, second best 1b - if the judge feels they are good enough to earn better than a first place. Sometimes the judge will give "1st place only" to a chin that is the best in it's class, but not good enough to be considered for higher competition. But the 1as and 1bs can be either male or female, young or old. There were plenty of class 3s and class 4s at Nationals last year.

And it appears trophies are given for the top three winners of each color (i.e. best white, best sapphire, best violet, etc.) most likely regardless of sex or age. Now the color trophies are "Breeder Trophies," so if I were to enter a chin that I didn't breed, would it not compete for these trophies? Or are these breeder trophies for those entering at least five chins in a color? (I've seen the another thread about these awards.) If the breeder trophies are for those entering five plus chins per color, are there color awards just for the single best chin of each color?

In order to be eligible for a color breeder's award, the animals have to have been bred by you. You can show animals that weren't, but they do not count toward your points. To win one of these (they are called section awards, for each of the color sections), you have to enter at least five chins of that color, and place no lower than 3rd.

The single best chins of each color - the color section champions and reserve color sections champions (best white male, second best white male, best white female, second best white female - and so on for each of the seven color sections) - get rosettes, and to compete against the other color section champions for best male and best female of show.

And some classes like male violet and all sapphires have no color winners. Does that mean none were entered or that potentially awards were withheld by the judges?

It just means there weren't any entered or any that did better than first. There were five or six sapphires total shown at Nationals last year - one of them was mine and he took a 3rd. The highest was a 2nd place female from the Bonniers.

With there being a Champion Male and Champion Female of show, do those two compete for Grand Show or can Grand Show and Reserve Grand Show both be the same sex? Does each sex win Grand Show in about equal numbers over the years or does one sex tend to win more than the other?

Yes, only the champion male and champion female compete for Grand Show Champion. If the male wins, then the reserve champion male will compete against the champion female for Reserve Grand Show Champion. If both males are better than the best female, then yes, they can be won by the same sex. Same can be said for the females beating the males.

In looking at the 2009 Nationals winners, I can see that Best Male, Best Female, and Grand Show all were grays first and black velvets second. That may just be coincidence. It must mean that both Grand Show awards went to the same sex, though. Is there a way from the numbering system for me to identify whether they were males or females?

To keep this thread semi-self-contained, here are the to awards.

Grand Show Champion Naturalle RBS V303 Shoots
Reserve Grand Show Black Velvet RBS T1612 Shoots
Champion Male of Show Naturalle RBS V795 Shoots
Reserve Champion Male Black Velvet RBS T1354 Shoots
Champion Female of Show Naturalle RBS V202 Shoots
Reserve Champion Female Black Velvet RBS T1612 Shoots

Looking at that, you can see both the GSC and RGSC were females, because they won CFS and RCFS, respectively. There is a typo though, either the GSC should be RBS V202 or the CFS should be RBS V303 - they have to be the same animal.

I'm guessing the RBS initials refer to Shoots and that all their chins start with those letters (their ranch prefix). The T and V numbers must not be their entry numbers nor the Shoots names/numbers, because none of the males or females has the same numbers as the Grand Show winners. What are the T and V numbers?
Linda

T and V, or any other letter, indicates the year the animal was born. T was 2007, V was 2008, this year is X and next year will be Z (some letters are skipped because they look too similar to other letters or numbers). So, RBS V303 was the 303rd animal born in 2008 at the Shoots' ranch.

 

[mishalaa]

Hope this helps: http://mishism.com/chins/dump/mcbabracket.jpg

Not every bracket will have something written on it - either because there weren't any animals entered that fit into those classes, or those classes didn't have any animals that placed higher than a first. Honestly, at some shows, I don't think there are even that many animals entered, much less that many animals that do better than a first....

For every bracket, there is a reserve (second best). When the best chin in a group is picked to move up to the next column of brackets, that chin's reserve replaces it (at a show you will hear this referred to as "back up") and the group is judged again to pick the next column's reserve.

Once you get to a show and see this system in action, it becomes a whole lot easier to understand how it works.

 

[mishalaa]

Okay, now I actually have a question - if you bred an animal but someone else shows it, do you get the points? I don't think you do.... I think you only get points for animals bred and shown by you.

If you show a chin not bred by you and it wins a trophy/rosette/ribbon, yes you the exhibitor/owner get the trophy. But for breeders awards, like the color section awards and master breeder, any animal not bred by you doesn't count.

 

[jags]

Thats correct only animals bred and shown by you count for your breeders points. Your animals shown by someone else get no breeder points at all.

 

[ann1]

For clarification, a beige mosaic is a pink white. A pink white is a cross between a beige and a white. Some people use the term beige mosaic when the pink white shows spots of beige, but they are still pink whites.

Now that i already knew. I really like this thread tho. It was informative