I need help!!!

[Caramiamine]

Ok so here is my questions and it's a doozer so I hope someone is able to help me and soon. My daughter gave me her chinchillas. One male and one female. She thought they were both males til she woke up to a surprise. OK. so the male looks like your standard chinchilla except that apart from his white belly he seems to have beige in his tail. I'm not familiar with standards so not sure if this is normal. My female is either a white silver mosaic or white ebony mosaic. Not sure which. Her first litter was one baby male and he was the same as her except he had paw spats and neither parent have any. Now my real dilemma is with her second litter because this time she had two and at first both seemed to be standards like him only now at almost a week I can see that they're not your typical standard. they appear to be a darker gray near the base of the fur and getting lighter towards the tip and the very tip is beige not white. They have a bit of white on the tummies but the grey seems to almost wrap around but not quite so it's just the middle of the tummy where there is white. The tips of their fur is a light beige not white, but they seem to have a bluish tinge. they don't appear to be very shiny either. More of a matt colour. The paws although very tiny seem to be white so far. their tails are a beige almost tan colour with flecks of black. so my question is this. What colour mutation are they. I've tried taking pictures but they never come out the way they really look. Please can someone help me A.S.A.P. Thank you.

 

[tunes]

I thought by the title "I need help!!" that this was going to be a medical emergency. I'm sure you scared quite a few people besides me.

Color wise, it sounds like you have a standard gray male with some discoloring on the tail. He's gray all over, except for a white belly, correct?

Female wise, there is no "white silver mosaic". You might have a mosaic or you might have a silver (which is still just a mosaic). You can't tell if it's an eb/white unless you have it's pedigree (which I really hope you do since you are continuing to breed them after the "oops" in the beginning). What color are the ears? What leads you to believe she's a silver? What is a "paw spat?"

It would really help if you could post pictures.

 

[3CsMommy]

I think the most important part is getting the male and female separated so the litters stop. What I'd do is make sure all the kits are weaned at 8 weeks, and keep the girls with mom and the boys with dad, unless you can line up homes for g/g or b/b pairs. What color they are is secondary to if they're healthy, and mama's gotta be getting tired of being pregnant, not to mention how hard it is on her physically!

Do you have a baby-proof cage? What are you feeding mommy (since that's what the babies are eating too)? Is daddy in a separate cage (if not, congrats, you're going to be a great grandma for a 3rd litter)? The FAQ in the breeding/babies section will be a big help, I'm sure. Once they're weaned, we can figure out colors and that other fun stuff.

 

[Caramiamine]

Ok sorry about the scare but I'm new to this. I don't have a pedigree for the mother or father because my daughter thought they were both males and bought them for herself as pets. I wasn't around as she is an adult and lives on her own. Secondly yes i do have a separate cage and do separate the parents so there is no back breeding. This is only her second litter in a year. How many should she have a year? I do want to continue to breed them as they are both such beautiful colours and it also helps me out financially and I would like to get into breeding more of them however I will make sure to get pedigreed ones. My only question is what colour are the babies this time around. they looked originally like standards as I had said previously except that they're all grey from root to almost tip and then they're beige at the tips. They do give off a blue hue though.

Yes daddy has a whitish tummy but again with some beige near the sides and the babies have a white tummy.

 

[chechinchillas]

A paw spat is a diagonal stripe on the 2 front paws that can help to determine if an animal is tov. Try to post pictures even if you can't get the color right. It sounds like they could just be off color animals. If the babies color is wrapping around the belly, your female may be an ebony white because the ebony gene can produce kits like that. Are the ears pinkish, maybe even freckled and eyes red or dark ruby like a beige or are they grey ears with black eyes like a standard? I don't keep males together in a cage once they become adults if a female is in the same room.

 

[Sandi]

Um, how could this be her second litter if they were thought to be both boys?

ETA: and isn't this "first" litter a surprise?

 

[chechinchillas]

Everyone has to start somewhere and I am still learning something new all of the time. Are both parents healthy? No weepy eyes or drooling? Check the bottom of each jaw to make sure there are no tooth roots growing down too far. You can sell the babies as discounted pet quality as long as both parents are healthy. Just let the customer know that they are not pedigreed and are pet quality. You could also attend one of the chinchilla shows and have an experienced breeder look at your chins to see if they should continue to be bred or not. 2 litters a year should be fine as long as the parents and kits are healthy. Your best bet is to do alot of research/reading. There are many helpful chinchilla websites online. Learn as much a you can. If you want to get into breeding I would not keep any of the babies from these parents back for breeding, but learn about what characteristics make a healthy, high quality chinchilla and then purchase a good foundation breeding pair to start with. Keep your original pair as pets or place them seperately with someone looking for a pet chin. You will be able to sell a high quality baby for more money and be proud of what you are producing.

 

[Caramiamine]

My daughter had bought them from reputable breeders who bred quality chins. The reason I don't know their pedigree and neither does she is because she never bothered to ask. She got the male first and when he was 6 months she got the female. They did not breed however until the female was 1 year old. Her first litter was August 20th 2010 and her second this one was February 20, 2011. I know she got them from good pedigreed breeding stock and will have to do my homework in contacting the breeder and finding out their pedigrees. But, meanwhile it's the babies that have me stumped. I'm going to try to take more pictures of them and post them. I've also been researching more since my postings and they actually look like a bluish charcoal colour. Gonna keep reading and keep the comments coming. Thank you. P.S. Under certain lighting they look really blue.

 

[tunes]

Che - Thank you for explaining that, except TOV has never been referred to as "spats" that I know of (which are what is found on shoes). They are referred to as paw stripes. It also doesn't prove anything of the kind. Standards have paw stripes and so do some other mutations, but that doesn't make them TOV.

Breeding chins because they are "pretty colors" is no reason to be breeding chins. Also, I can't begin to imagine how it would help out financially. You want to know how many times a year you can breed her, and you mention money, which throws up red flags that she's going to be a baby making machine to put money in your wallet. Sorry to be so harsh, but that's what everyone else is going to think as well. I don't allow any female to have more than 2 litters a year. I never "allow" them to have breedbacks either, which is what you did. Breedbacks can take a terrible toll on a female's body. You also know nothing of this female's health history or background. Che thinks if you rub her chin and don't feel lumps it's okey dokey, and that isn't true. Just because they don't show malo symptoms now does not mean that they won't develop it or that they aren't carriers (which you can't feel in any case). Without knowing where your chins come from and what their background is, they should not be bred - period.

Che - Yes, everybody has to start somewhere. I am assuming since you came here seeking information that you would prefer to start out the right way. The excuse "everybody starts out somewhere" only carries so much weight. You don't keep slapping chins together to purposely produce nothing but pet chins. You want pet chins, go to petfinder.com and take the tons of rescues sitting there. Don't create more.

 

[Magic_FROST]

Just my two cents.


Successful breeders who care about their chins and make sure they better the breed while breeding and producing beautiful babies MAKE NO MONEY whatsoever. In fact, the opposite is true most of the time.

The money you are going to spend ensuring that you have the best medical care available for that momma, could far outweigh the $$ you could make on babies in 5 years. Just ask a couple of the seasoned breeders on here, their stories of what they have paid in expenses for their breeder chins make you think theyre almost crazy. They arent, they are dedicated to bettering the breed. Whether that means they have to spend THOUSANDS on an emergency surgical procedure or by sheer terror they lose a $600 prize female because an otherwise "best buddy" male fought with her and she dies despite everything.


Please dont keep having babies thinking that it helps financially.

You cannot in good conscience sell those kits as a color that you THINK they might be. You cannot ask more money for a color you think they might be because you have no idea what they actually are-- For example, you think you might have wrap or a sapphire-- but really you have no idea because as you said, they parents were purchased to be pets only. So you cant sell these babies as anything other than potential nice pets to somebody who will keep them that way.

Once again, Magic's $0.02

 

[chechinchillas]

Wow. I came on here to "share ideas". I get my "information" from my mentor, Ralph Shoots, who refers to them as "paw spats", which are "helpful" in determining if an animal, especially a black white cross is tov. I have a herd of top quality animals that are from the top breeders in the country. Being mean and rude to someone who is new to breeding is not being helpful. This person is just starting out and there is no reason to treat her that way. I am not arrogant enough to think that there is only one way to do something or one way to say something.

 

[tunes]

Che - Telling someone to keep breeding just to pump out pet chinchillas is against everything Ralph Shoots ever told anyone. He was full of scorn for "pet breeders." His very record would go against everything you are encouraging. Telling people to just keep throwing chins together willy nilly, with no backgrounds, and no breeding plan would absolutely not be what he would have recommended. When I first approached them about breeding stock, I was questioned extensively on what was in my herd and what I hoped to attain. Back in the day, they wouldn't even talk to you if you had mutations in your herd.

Again, I have never heard of anyone referring to the paw stripes as "spats", but hey, if you were told by Ralph that that's what they are, then we've all learned something new. In 10 years, I have never heard them referred to as anything but stripes.

Once again, and definitely with feeling, encouraging people to keep pumping out pet chins just for the sake of lining their pockets will NEVER be encouraged on this forum or by any responsible breeder who gives a darn about chinchillas. If that's what you're advocating, then you're going to constantly be called to task on this forum.

 

[Magic_FROST]

I dont think "paw spats" or "paw stripes" is the issue. I personally have heard both.

Being new to breeding is one thing. Breeding to breed or make money is another.

As you know, finding your way into the breeding show/world is helpful with a mentor. Could you maybe pm the op and offer to mentor her? You could probably really help and I am sure you could answer some of her other questions, if she has any.

Her posted question, " I NEED HELP" has been given answers and advice from people who all WANT to help. They would not have taken their own time to respond if they did not want to help--help both the op and the chins in question.

Even as a sole rescue person and having no breeding chins in my home, I am not against breeding. I dont even think there is only one right way to breed. HOWEVER, there are many WRONG WAYS.

Those wrong ways only lead to bad things. If you have been around chins for any length of time, you recognize those bad things.

 

[chechinchillas]

TUNES:
No where in my post does it say pump out chins to line their pocket, no where at all. You need to read the post again. She said the chins came from a good breeder of quality chins. I told her to have someone look at them and see if she should breed them. I told her to research and learn and to get a quality pair if she wants to get into breeding. You are way out of line and I will not be posting or reading on here anymore. Ralph and Barbara would never treat someone that way, ever. They spend an hour with each new small hobby breeder that comes to them, invite them into their home, educate them and treat them nicely.

 

[tunes]

You're wrong about how all new breeders were treated by the Shoots, but I won't get into that here with you. As to whether or not you stay or go, that's up to you. But you did tell her to keep pumping out pet chins and you will not ever be admired for saying so.

 

[Magic_FROST]

Chechin--
No, you did not say to pump out chins to make $ in those exact words. You didnt. I still say maybe you could offer the op mentor-ship if you feel you need to.

But what the OP wanted to know is what colors her kits are. And she said she needed to know ASAP. To me (who has been rescuing for 20 years) thats says shes trying to know if she can get more $$ for a "special" color than for what her kits truly are--backyard bred chins with no pedigree, no health precautions, nothing.

And thats against what I believe in. And many, many, many true breeders that I know and have become friends with.

 

[Stackie]

You're wrong about how all new breeders were treated by the Shoots, but I won't get into that here with you. As to whether or not you stay or go, that's up to you. But you did tell her to keep pumping out pet chins and you will not ever be admired for saying so.

I'd have to agree, for the 5 minutes I talked to Ralph he was rude as ever.... :shrug:

As for the OP, may I ask which "quality" breeder these chins came from? If you would contact them, assuming they are reputable, they may be able to look in their records and give you pedigrees, as well as health background. You should then consider buying quality breeding stock and you should also consider going to shows if you want to continue to breed, to learn what quality is. If you're going to breed, it needs to be for the right reasons, period. There are hundreds of chins in rescues waiting for homes...we don't need people pumping out babies just to make money when there are already chins here that need homes. You may think you're making money not but it's really not fair to the people buying your chins- they have unknown backgrounds with unknown health history. You could be breeding two chins that have malo in their genes. Even if you are only breeding "pet" chins, pet owners deserve high quality chins regardless.

That money you feel like you're making now could quickly go down the drain when the female experiences birthing complications, which chances are only increased due to multiple births. (And I would hope veterinary care would be sought out should they arise.) I have seen posters paying for emergency c-sections well into the thousands of dollars.

 

[ticklechin]

I also met Shoots at a state show, the man was rude and abrupt and would not answer my question on a issue he had with my PW, that he said could have been GSC if it were not for it. There was no warm fuzzy feelings there for any of the "small people".

Breeding on a small scale to make money? Never heard of one person who actually made a living doing it, maybe not enough to pay a phone bill.

 

[Caramiamine]

In response to your statement tunes that this litter was a breed back. It wasn't a breedback. The mother was separated from the male for 2 months before she got pregnant again. As for making money. Yes I hope to make a little money on the babies but certainly nothing to live on. Just enough so that I can keep providing them the best food and toys and veterinary care. I have done my homework as far as breedbacks. As for their pedigree, as I mentioned earlier, I'm going to have to make some calls and get the information that my daughter neglected to get from the breeder she got them from. Then I'll have a better idea of what I'm breeding and what I can offer people in terms of their pets. And yes I'm breeding them to be pets only. thank you for all of your help. I was just hoping I could get some answers without having to track the breeder in question and have him go over his logs. Yes I do keep logs also. Again thank you.

 

[EMSChins]

I have bought breeders & supplies from Ralph & Barbara for several years and have found them to be nothing but honest, helpful, generous, kind and even funny people. They spend as much or as little time as you need to explain things or suggest better ways to manage your herd. The negative comments are quite a surprise to me because I have never seen a hint of rudeness from either of them. I wonder if others peoples experiences at shows have more to do with their timing of interactions as I myself have gotten the cold shoulder from several ranchers that I have seen postings from that say they are willing to teach and help but in reality while at a show, they are honestly too busy and involved with their own animals to be much help - they come across as rude but may quite possibly be the nicest people in the world. Anyway, off topic but just my opinion.