Twilight Chinchillas
Zookeeper extraordinaire
There used to be someone on the old forum that had a "chocolate" It was extremely dark and there was no question that is was a extra dark tan. Beautiful animal. I haven't seen one like it since.
How to recognize a REAL chocolate
- Thread starter Anne-Lise
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The one I know of from CnQ was Avima. She had THE most gorgeous dark tan (and I'd hazard a guess chocolate), that I've ever seen.
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Rickman
Guest
I think a lot of the confusion stems from the definition of "****" compared to "hetro." [myself included] From what I understand, [but I'm usually wrong!] the difference in whites and beiges, is eye color, **** being a light pink, hetro being a darker red. With ebonies, **** is "every hair shiny black, to the skin," which also applys to chocolates, but obviously brown. According to the "Chin Calculator," [which can be confusing in itself] you're able to get both **** chocolates and hetro chocolates, with, I imagine, the hetro actually being a dark tan, with several combinations! Is this, in fact true, or is there something else missing?
It depends how the calculator was made. If the definition of 'tan' and 'chocolate' and the difference between them wasn't clear, there's a big chance the calculator doesn't really give accurate results or terms, according to what we agree of course.
mishalaa
Irish Chinchilla
If it has a bar, it's not a chocolate. That's all there is to it. I have not seen such an animal but I trust Chris Woods when she says she has seen one and only one true chocolate in 20+ years. I know of several breeders trying for chocolates, but breeding the bar out of beige is easier said than done. It's not all that easy with ebony, and throwing beige in the mix makes it all the more difficult.
The bar lightens the overall appearance of a chin - the wider the bar/shorter the tip, the lighter the animal will appear. The thinner the bar/longer the tip, the darker it will appear. No bar is the darkest a chin can possibly appear, and these are your chocolates and "****" (oh how I hate that term) extra dark ebs.
The bar lightens the overall appearance of a chin - the wider the bar/shorter the tip, the lighter the animal will appear. The thinner the bar/longer the tip, the darker it will appear. No bar is the darkest a chin can possibly appear, and these are your chocolates and "****" (oh how I hate that term) extra dark ebs.
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Rickman
Guest
So, if I have a extra dark ebony, all black hairs shiny black, to the skin, but a grey "undercoat," only visable when you blow into the fur, what have I? No grey shows!
I've others, with variable shades of grey, and I know they'd be classified as dark, medium, and light!
Wish I'd been earlier to the nationals, to ask that question there!
I've others, with variable shades of grey, and I know they'd be classified as dark, medium, and light!
Wish I'd been earlier to the nationals, to ask that question there!
Ash
Trouble....
My non-breeder self would hazard a guess to say extra dark ebony is exactly what you described, not '****'.
People forget that "****" and "hetero" refer to the genes carried.. It's my understanding that ebony can't be a "****" gene as it simply modifies the already present genes, rather than creating a full new color, such as the violet and beige genes do. Hence, how you get the 'wraps'. The ebony gene has modified the violet or sapph or beige gene.
**** and hetero technically would be a 'hetero violet' or v/c, and a '**** violet' aka a violet. At least, that was my understanding of genetics in high school CP/AP bio. Feel free to correct!
People forget that "****" and "hetero" refer to the genes carried.. It's my understanding that ebony can't be a "****" gene as it simply modifies the already present genes, rather than creating a full new color, such as the violet and beige genes do. Hence, how you get the 'wraps'. The ebony gene has modified the violet or sapph or beige gene.
**** and hetero technically would be a 'hetero violet' or v/c, and a '**** violet' aka a violet. At least, that was my understanding of genetics in high school CP/AP bio. Feel free to correct!
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And is that 'bar' trait genetic or not?
Spoof mentionned about lines, so am I understanding right if I say that I need to find a line where the bar is extremely weak or non-existent in order to have a chance at getting no bar at all? I'm speaking about ebonies here.
Spoof mentionned about lines, so am I understanding right if I say that I need to find a line where the bar is extremely weak or non-existent in order to have a chance at getting no bar at all? I'm speaking about ebonies here.
mishalaa
Irish Chinchilla
Bear with me on this as this is going to sound contradictory...
You will not find a chinchilla without a bar in its genotype. Chinchillas are an agouti species - meaning each individual hair has more than one color on it (tip, bar, and underfur in the case of chins). At this time, there is no mutation in chinchillas to make them non-agouti, meaning every individual hair would be one solid color.
There are mutations, however, that mask the bar. The white series of mutations masks the bar, because either pigment production or pigment attachment is inhibited, thus you cannot determine the width of the bar, but genetically it's still there. Some of the ebony mutations also mask the bar, because they increase the amount of pigment production and/or its distribution. You have to have the right ebony mutation(s) and the right accumulation of it in order to mask the bar, but again, genetically, the bar is still there. I'd have to get some fur samples, but I think the black mutant factor (TOV) in combination with veiling genetics also masks the bar, but only within the veiling. The bar is still visible along the sides.
Since the bar is present in the genotype of all chinchillas, you can't select for or against it. You can, however, select for its width (thinner bar/longer tip is generally preferred, as this would be a darker phase animal) and its color (white, off-white or yellow/cream (undesired)).
The beige series of mutations affect the size (larger), shape (irregular), and number (decreased) of pigment granules, including in the eye, and dilutes the overall appearance of an animal from gray to beige (and a black animal to brown).
In order to get a chocolate, you want to combine the right ebony mutation(s) so that you get a chin with increased pigment production and distribution to the point that every hair would be completely black and the bar masked - with a beige mutation so that the black is diluted to brown.
I don't work with ebony precisely because the genotype is indeterminate (i.e. you cannot tell which of the seven known ebony mutations you're working with), so I cannot tell you how to select your ebonies to produce the extra dark barless eb.
You will not find a chinchilla without a bar in its genotype. Chinchillas are an agouti species - meaning each individual hair has more than one color on it (tip, bar, and underfur in the case of chins). At this time, there is no mutation in chinchillas to make them non-agouti, meaning every individual hair would be one solid color.
There are mutations, however, that mask the bar. The white series of mutations masks the bar, because either pigment production or pigment attachment is inhibited, thus you cannot determine the width of the bar, but genetically it's still there. Some of the ebony mutations also mask the bar, because they increase the amount of pigment production and/or its distribution. You have to have the right ebony mutation(s) and the right accumulation of it in order to mask the bar, but again, genetically, the bar is still there. I'd have to get some fur samples, but I think the black mutant factor (TOV) in combination with veiling genetics also masks the bar, but only within the veiling. The bar is still visible along the sides.
Since the bar is present in the genotype of all chinchillas, you can't select for or against it. You can, however, select for its width (thinner bar/longer tip is generally preferred, as this would be a darker phase animal) and its color (white, off-white or yellow/cream (undesired)).
The beige series of mutations affect the size (larger), shape (irregular), and number (decreased) of pigment granules, including in the eye, and dilutes the overall appearance of an animal from gray to beige (and a black animal to brown).
In order to get a chocolate, you want to combine the right ebony mutation(s) so that you get a chin with increased pigment production and distribution to the point that every hair would be completely black and the bar masked - with a beige mutation so that the black is diluted to brown.
I don't work with ebony precisely because the genotype is indeterminate (i.e. you cannot tell which of the seven known ebony mutations you're working with), so I cannot tell you how to select your ebonies to produce the extra dark barless eb.
That is still a lot of good info even though you don't work with ebonies, thanks A LOT mishalaa! I love that you guys take time to discuss these things with me :thumbs:
I'm going to have a lot of work to do. I understand I might never get to the point of a chocolate, but at least I'll learn on the way!
I'm going to have a lot of work to do. I understand I might never get to the point of a chocolate, but at least I'll learn on the way!
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Rickman
Guest
Mish - thanks a lot, as that really helped! Is there something I can read that explains the seven ebony mutations? Thanks again!!
TillyChinchilla
Well-known member
Mish, that was a good read. I'd really assumed chocolate to be a term in the category of "pastel, extreme mosaic, 50/50" category, but that cleared it up a bit.
Spoof
Kung Fu Chinny!
Mish, you're right about the bar, but off on the "true chocolate".
It has nothing to do with the bar, but the shaft itself if we're using the "a true chocolate is chocolate all the way down" theory.
Most ebonies don't have a gradient at the top (tip/bar), it's solid black. Ebs First;
Medium Eb, Ex-dark. Here, the difference is in the wrapping of the ebony, has nothing at all to do with the bar. One is solid shiny black everywhere, the other not. Fur looks the same though the darker (on the right) is just slightly darker. I always pull hair from the hip.
Again, the lines I'm using do not have dark shafts, pretty obvious.
It has nothing to do with the bar, but the shaft itself if we're using the "a true chocolate is chocolate all the way down" theory.
Most ebonies don't have a gradient at the top (tip/bar), it's solid black. Ebs First;
Medium Eb, Ex-dark. Here, the difference is in the wrapping of the ebony, has nothing at all to do with the bar. One is solid shiny black everywhere, the other not. Fur looks the same though the darker (on the right) is just slightly darker. I always pull hair from the hip.
Again, the lines I'm using do not have dark shafts, pretty obvious.
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Spoof
Kung Fu Chinny!
Beige variety of the same thing.
I don't have a medium tan, only a light one. You can see that there is a wee bit of bar in that shaft. If she were a medium it would be no different than the ex-dark all-around chocolaty fungus lady. Maybe a few shades lighter.
Now compare to that very first extra dark fur (Hetero Beige) shaft I posted (reposted below). THAT is dark! A beige like that crossed with eb would give you some amazing dark critters through and through.
I don't have a medium tan, only a light one. You can see that there is a wee bit of bar in that shaft. If she were a medium it would be no different than the ex-dark all-around chocolaty fungus lady. Maybe a few shades lighter.
Now compare to that very first extra dark fur (Hetero Beige) shaft I posted (reposted below). THAT is dark! A beige like that crossed with eb would give you some amazing dark critters through and through.
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C
Chingal
Guest
I have only used two lines of beige in my tan breedings and one line of Ebony and the beige makes a world of difference as spoof has said. One line gives me medium to dark tans when bred to my darkest ebonies. The other line consistantly gives me the dark dark tans ( I hate to say chocolate as I really have only seen one I would say was for sure a chocolate) and the dark dark ebonies.. On a side note the lighter line also tends to give me a red tint on the lighter ebs and the tans from that line oxidize faster. Hence I have cut back on the production of that line. The first pic is out of the lighter beige line I have used the last two are of the darker line I am continuing to use.
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mishalaa
Irish Chinchilla
The Basic Genetics and History of Mutation Chinchilla by Alice Kline, sold through the MCBA. It explains each of the seven ebonies, as well as all the known mutations (except the recent ones like Goldbar and Lowe).
