How do breeding-chins live?

[Anna]

hahaha sorry to revert back but that video is awesome. i laughed so hard, i wish my guys were that talented

 

[tunes]

Why do some breeders have over 30 chins? Sure they are small animals but I don't know why so many are needed?

I think you are assuming that every single chin in a breeder's barn is in breeding. Couldn't be further from the truth here. I have rescues, surrenders, and nonbreeders here (animals that should not/will not be bred, those that won't breed for whatever physical reason, etc.). In addition to that, as Sumiko said, if you don't have a large pool to choose from, you will end up inbreeding to the point that there will be nothing left but bad furred, maloccluding, wedgie, rat faced chins.

It also helps that I can do a group of 10 males at once and 10 females at once etc. Can larger breeders do this?

I work at home. Up to the time I had 100 chins, I did run time every single day, all day long. I had 3 playpens set up with various toys for stimulation, tubes, boxes, free standing wheels, yada yada. Have an illness go through your herd one time, and you will never follow this practice again. Combining animals from multiple cages is foolish and dangerous. If one of those animals is sick, and you expose animals from 9 other cages, you have just wiped out your herd, especially a herd your size. When I had an illness run through my herd due to bad feed, it was devastating. Had I still been offering run time to my chins, I would have lost them all. As it was, I spent over $3000.00 in meds and necropsies to find out what was going on, slept on the chin room floor for 2 weeks in a sleeping bag, and still lost so many favorites and litters of kits whose immune systems just couldn't handle it. I was no sooner in the car running for the vets, than another chin would prolapse and my daughter would call in hysterics. So, yeah, you better rethink the "playtime" necessity and the mixing up of different cages, unless you can 100% scour and sterilize the area they will be in, and be absolutely 110% sure that there is absolutely nothing wrong with any chin that you put together for play time.

 

[Megan]

I have to agree 100% with Peggy's above post.

Once an illness hits..you'll change your practices. I used to use a dust bath that would share a group of cages. Not anymore every single chinchilla has it's own dust bath. When you've watched your top breeders, your special "pets", and kits you were trying to work on for 3 years to produce die... you'll rethink everything you did with chins.

My runs, no play time, seperate dust baths have been 100% the answer to any problem I had in the past. I no longer let visitors in to see the chinchillas unless I know them extremely well as well.

 

[Tagna]

I don't think it's fair to compare breeders cages vs pet owner cages. There are so many issues for breeders to be concerned about when it comes to the health and safety of their breeders. Pet owners can just enjoy their pets without the issue of babies, breeding and all that stuff.

I've been to a chinchilla ranch and the set up there was very different from a hobby breeders too. You just can't compare the three really. Each set up works for that group. I know my chins love their FN's and their wheels, and tons of STUFF.

 

[ErinsChins]

I never thought about that! I only have one group of chins that are from 2 different cages, but I will no longer do that. I'd hate to have something like that happen. Can they still run in the same area? I vacuum the room (carpet) at least twice a day and use carpet cleaner once a week or so. The way my chin room is set up, most of my cages are built together, but have a solid wood divider between them. Would illness not spread that way also? I tried to attach a picture of the cages, but it isn't the best quality.

I do want what is best for my chin's, including happiness. I have a few chins from a large rancher and when I first got them and tried to put them in one of my cages, they ran back and forth looking up because they weren't used to the space. It made me sad and I don't want that. Please tell me if there is a way to have playime and healthy chins. I have multiple chin safe rooms, so that isn't an issue.

 

[tunes]

Can they still run in the same area? I vacuum the room (carpet) at least twice a day and use carpet cleaner once a week or so.

IMO, no, you can't let them run in the same area unless you can 100% guarantee that the area has been sterilized. Also, one of the FIRST things the vet at Texas A & M said was to tear the carpet out of that room, seal the floor, and get tile down. Carpet is a breeding ground for bacteria, mold, and all kinds of nasties in an animal breeding room. You can't possibly get the carpet clean unless you had a professional steam cleaner come in and do it in between each cages run time.

Most of the really bad illnesses for chins involve the exchanging of fluids, poop, etc. Fungus would be the one that you really have to worry about being airborne. Having the wire cages, IMO, is less of an issue than having them rolling around in each others dust, chewing each others wood, etc, which is what happens when you share a play area.

I don't think it's fair to compare breeders cages vs pet owner cages. There are so many issues for breeders to be concerned about when it comes to the health and safety of their breeders. Pet owners can just enjoy their pets without the issue of babies, breeding and all that stuff.

Thank you for that, because it's true. You can't compare a pet owner to any breeder, whether they are a hobbyist or a rancher. The needs of the animals in those situations are just incredibly different. Keep in mind too, none of you pet owners would have your pets were it not for breeders having so many animals. What you get from a pet store, from a cull, or cheaply from a breeder are often times (not always) the animals they will not use in their breeding programs. Some people pay top dollar for a chin they really like just to be a pet, but it's very rare, especially nowadays with every backyard breader selling their offspring for five bucks. The responsible breeders are not necessarily the ones that are flooding the market. The onesie, twosie, I want cute kits for absolutely no reason other than that, then I get bored and can't take care of them and dump them in rescues, or the I'm going to make a ton of money off of these 3 breeding pairs I have for the 15 minutes I own them because it ended up being more expensive/not as much fun/too time consuming people that are.

 

[ErinsChins]

IMO, no, you can't let them run in the same area unless you can 100% guarantee that the area has been sterilized. Also, one of the FIRST things the vet at Texas A & M said was to tear the carpet out of that room, seal the floor, and get tile down. Carpet is a breeding ground for bacteria, mold, and all kinds of nasties in an animal breeding room. You can't possibly get the carpet clean unless you had a professional steam cleaner come in and do it in between each cages run time.

Most of the really bad illnesses for chins involve the exchanging of fluids, poop, etc. Fungus would be the one that you really have to worry about being airborne. Having the wire cages, IMO, is less of an issue than having them rolling around in each others dust, chewing each others wood, etc, which is what happens when you share a play area.

We were actually planning to tile the room earlier this year, i'll see about getting it tiled. The chinchillas weren't in this room until about a week ago. Before that, the room was tiled, but it was too small and hard to move. Once I get the tile, what will I need to do about playtime? Can I use like a swiffer wet jet (?) between sets?

 

[AZChins]

Yeah, carpet is a pain in the butt. I let the chins play in the bathrooms and entry way because I can sweep up and clean easier since there's no carpet in there.

As for the issue with the small cages. Has anyone ever heard a rancher say that the chins will use their cage as a wheel? The chins run around an open cage and do pretty well.

Right now I have a lot less breeding chins than normal and a lot more rescues. The rescues are mostly given large cages because that is what they are used to having. A lot of it is the size of cage they are accustomed to having. When they are placed in a smaller holding cage at a younger age they tend to prefer that size of cage. There have been times where it has been nearly impossible to move chins to larger cages because they literally freak out over it.

Just wanted to add... I throw out all the wood every few months. All the ledges and chews and toys actually end up getting burned in the woodstove over the winter. Wood can get very dirty and harbor bacteria. Cleaning here is necessary and constant. The chins can get very sick if things aren't kept clean enough for them.

I've picked up rescues before where people have kept the same wooden things in the cage for years and years. It's not good for the chins for dirty wood that has been urinated on to be kept in the cage.

 

[Essentia]

Erin, you might want to purchase the new Rubbermaid Reveal Spray Mop. They are fantastic. They work like a Swiffer Wet Jet, but you can clean with anything you want. It doesn't even come with a cleaner, just an empty bottle for you to fill with whatever you want to clean with. That way, if you wanted to, you could even just go over it with vineger in between play times. Plus the pads are washable, so cost wise and easibility wise it's economical.

http://www.rubbermaid.com/Category/Pages/ProductDetail.aspx?Prod_ID=RP091920

I sound like an ad, but I LOVE mine. It's so much better than having to buy the specific Swiffer Cleaner, their pads, etc.

 

[RDZCRanch]

Fanciness is a little of an overstatement. I'm not necessarily advocating an overload of unnecessary knick knacks, but I do wonder about the psyche of the animals. True, they are just that - animals - but I assume they can be influenced by stress and lack of stimulation just like any caged animal would. The main point that we agree on is that they are animals, however the difference in conclusion is that I think they are more perceptive than may be believed. They are high energy, wild animals that are evolved to run in large open spaced in large herds. How can they live their lives in a small enclosed space?

To put it simply, you can't miss what you never had. Chinchillas today come from over 40 years of being bred in small runs. I've actually seen ranch chins that live a lot longer than a lot of pet chinchillas do. Heck, the pet chinchillas that do live much longer lives typically were born and raised on a ranch. Stimulation is a great thing but it is not the be all end all of the chinchilla world. My chins get hammocks, because I like the bright colors and how soft they are. I am slowly working on getting hammocks into my runs, but that is a much more difficult task. And as much as I would LOVE to give my chins a new wood chew every day, it is not cost effective. Not to mention, I also have to worry about pesticides in the wood affecting the health of my chins and their babies and their reproduction. Anything you might have to worry about with chinchilla toys or anything like that...I would have to worry about that times 70. For me, the health of my breeders and their babies comes before toys or run time. It is great mental stimulation, but chinchillas are very smart creatures, they know how to mentally stimulate themselves. Often times, a radio being on in the room is enough mental stimulation for them.

 

[Sandi]

Hidey homes are also pet misconceptions. If your animal is running to hide from you; you are frightening them. If you want them to become more social, I dont think that putting a home for them to hide is is very wise, since they will run from every moment you can bond with them.

Not true. Every one of my chins has a hidey house and where I have multiple chins in a cage, there are at least 2 or more hidey houses in there. All of my chins have great personalities and ALL of them come running up to the cage door, if their awake, when I enter their room. I do still have 1 or 2 that will not want to socialize too much with me yet, but I'm working on that, yet they do NOT run into their hidey house terrified of me. I believe hidey houses are a staple when you get a chin. I also believe it makes them feel safe. I'm so glad I had houses in the cages as a couple of my boys started fighting and the one that was getting picked on would run into the house. He could defend himself just from that small opening if he had to.

 

[Dusty Foot Prints]

This is an extremely interesting thread, thanks for posting.

 

[caiti]

Erin, you might want to purchase the new Rubbermaid Reveal Spray Mop. They are fantastic. They work like a Swiffer Wet Jet, but you can clean with anything you want. It doesn't even come with a cleaner, just an empty bottle for you to fill with whatever you want to clean with. That way, if you wanted to, you could even just go over it with vineger in between play times. Plus the pads are washable, so cost wise and easibility wise it's economical.

http://www.rubbermaid.com/Category/Pages/ProductDetail.aspx?Prod_ID=RP091920

I sound like an ad, but I LOVE mine. It's so much better than having to buy the specific Swiffer Cleaner, their pads, etc.

Yes, you do sound like an ad. But an ad that makes me want to buy you!!! Actually, I might show this to the guy who runs the lab I work at because I have to mop every monday and bird seed/chin dust (yes they take dust baths with chin dust hehe) always gets in between the ropes on the regular mop. This might be a good solution, if IACUC doesn't freak out about it. But I have digressed.

A big sign of unmanageable stress in animals is stereotypic behaviors. The stereotypies people hear most about are pacing, bar chewing and the stress can escalate to become behaviors like self mutilation. I think if chins were very stressed out in small cages they would exhibit these. One could say bar chewing is seen, but knowing that chins really interact with their mouths, this very well could be a normal behavior for them--an example of it being a stereotypy are in pigs that mouth the bars on their stall doors constantly. I do understand the confusion because I look at my chin who has a cage my bed could fit in and she zooms around in it and utilizes all the space when she gets active. And it's hard for me to imagine chins not doing that since that is what I'm exposed to.

I think pet owners have created our own arbitrary standards as to our chin's housing needs. I realize now that my chin doesn't need a cage bigger than my bed to be content but it certainly doesn't hurt and I don't regret making it because I could. I don't have to worry about my other 90 chins having cages that my bed fits in because I only have one. But breeders are more practical. They can't get sucked into the "if you don't give each chin an entire room and 19 hours of playtime a day you are a horrible chin parent!!" trap. Because they know it's ridiculous.

All in all, I don't really know how it effects chins to live in runs. I would guess not too horribly, because they are healthy and act normal.

 

[ticklechin]

How do breeding chins live? Better than alot of pet chins I have seen, at least they are clean, actually have fresh food and water and get to go to the vet when needed, not just when the owners parents think its ok to feed them or take them to the vet.

 

[Dragonflye]

Not true. Every one of my chins has a hidey house and where I have multiple chins in a cage, there are at least 2 or more hidey houses in there. All of my chins have great personalities and ALL of them come running up to the cage door, if their awake, when I enter their room. I do still have 1 or 2 that will not want to socialize too much with me yet, but I'm working on that, yet they do NOT run into their hidey house terrified of me. I believe hidey houses are a staple when you get a chin. I also believe it makes them feel safe. I'm so glad I had houses in the cages as a couple of my boys started fighting and the one that was getting picked on would run into the house. He could defend himself just from that small opening if he had to.

Same here Sandi!

Hidey houses are everywhere in my chin room. I stock up on them...

 

[Essentia]

How do breeding chins live? Better than alot of pet chins I have seen, at least they are clean, actually have fresh food and water and get to go to the vet when needed, not just when the owners parents think its ok to feed them or take them to the vet.

Agreed 110%.

 

[monarch]

Thanks for all the responses guys! What stuck with me the most is the comment about domesticated dogs vs wild dogs, and comparing them to chins. You're absolutely right, I hadn't considered breeders to take account behavior into their breeding qualities.

I have to say breeding is quite an extensive and intelligent hobby. Kind of cool to think about how you can influence and completely change an animals' characteristics.

I do want to point out that I don't give treats to my chin. There's no real point to, other than to make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside, but that's a little selfish And I feel warm and fuzzy when he comes up and nudges my feet, so that's good enough for me.

I do think that hidey houses seem to be appropriate for the chins though. From what my newbie eyes have observed, I can see they seem to like going to small enclosed spaces if they feel threatened, or even to just sleep and feel safe. Yes I know, we can go into debating on whether the animals have 'feelings' or not, but regardless of feelings we can try to do what we can to make them calm at least.

 

[tunes]

Monarch, this was a very good topic to discuss. I don't think people ever really think to ask breeders, especially hobbyists, how their chins are cared for or what their point of view on the overall scheme of things is. It was good to be able to educate nonbreeders somewhat on what goes on in our lives.

And, nothing wrong with giving your chin a treat now and then, especially if it gives you gratification. They are your pets and they are there for you to enjoy.

 

[mishalaa]

I'm just now seeing this thread. I guess my reply comment (two plus years ago) could have been a bit more elaborate - but I was trying to point out that I was a breeder and not a pet owner, so my chins don't get the luxuries I WISH I could give them, but would be unfeasible to do with so many animals for cost reasons, safety reasons, and so on which has already been explained in this thread.

I will say that, like quite a few hobby breeders, I started out as a pet owner with 4 foot tall cages filled with shelves, ledges, toys, wheels, hammocks... and everyone got out of cage time. Once I made the switch to breeder - after having been to shows and talking with other breeders and reading everything in the breeding section of the old Chins-n-Quills forum - I knew I would have to give up those luxuries. I believe that *I* miss those things more than the chins do.

I LOVE seeing pet chins in huge cages with all their toys and I feel a bit guilty mine don't have those things, but at the same time, I'm honestly and earnestly trying to do something to better the species on the whole, so if a few individual animals have to put up with runs so that future chinchillas are better than what we have now, I'm okay with it. It's kind of a lame justification, but I do at least give all my chins ledges or hidey houses (such as the one Cedric was flipping over), even in the runs. <=)

As Tanya said, you can't really compare breeders to pet owners. As someone who has been both, I understand the difference - but because I have that guilt, I find it hard to explain to pet owners why chins kept in small cages with no play time, etc., is acceptable.

 

[shaeway]

My boys are all pets. I do have a rather large cage for two of them, but the goal was to get all four in it together so they could cuddle and/or be apart if needed. But alas, the best laid plans, I now have them housed in three smaller cages and one in the large one. :cry3:They get playtime maybe once a week now due to my new schedule, but they get fresh hay, food and water daily. They get shredded wheats when I come home, so I talk to them and pet them through the bars. Three of them have seemed to thrive and grown bigger and even fluffier. (Susan I need to get you pics of Syd, he's not only huge but B-E-A-UTIFUL) And oddly enough, more lovable. :hmm:Only Moche seems to need more time with me. Of course he was a pet store chin, so who knows how he was raised and we bonded pretty tightly...

The point is that the pet only owners lavish attention on the animals and begin to think the animal needs it. No, we do. They do need interaction, but not like we do to feel satisfied with our pets. Lol I feel bad that mine don't have tons of toys and fleece, but the breeders don't need them and their animals are goregous and amazing, so mine are just fine. Plus I don't have the funds for that.

And I must thank all you breeders that posted on here. It does get rid of the misconception that you're a bad owner with out constant treats/playtime/toys and what not.