How did this come about?

[ChinMom]

Like many of my other critters, my own family tree included, I am very interested in the genetics of everything. Now I know there are split opinions on breeding chinchillas with a lethal factor. Some of you say it is no big deal and others are strictly against it. Personally I do not encourage it and avoid it. Recently I met someone who bred a Wilson white and a mosaic. To my knowledge, this is breeding two whites which creates a lethal factor. I did try to explain this to her. If I'm correct, a Wilson white has the dominant white gene and the recessive standard gene. A white mosaic has the dominant white gene and the recessive beige gene. Breeding these two together creates the fatality, the white, or the standard. Now I am a bit confused, if the parents were as they said, how this baby came about. I thought if he was a tan wrap, then he would have the dominant beige gene and the dominant ebony gene. What are your thoughts on what he is, or what the parents COULD have been if they weren't what they thought or had something else in there.

FULL VIEW, NO FLASH
http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/sstes/media/2014-11_cosmo03.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0

FRONT VIEW, NO FLASH
http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/sstes/media/2014-11_cosmo05.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1

FULL VIEW, WITH FLASH ON
http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/sstes/media/2014-11_cosmo06.jpg.html?sort=3&o=3

BELLY VIEW, FLASH ON
http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/sstes/media/2014-11_cosmo07.jpg.html?sort=3&o=2

 

[jags]

Pics of the parents would help! Also the grandparents colors. The lethal factor is not as much of an issue to me as breeding white to white brings many undesirably traits and does nothing to improve quality.

 

[Stackie]

Standard and beige are not recessive genes. The offspring looks beige to me, which means at least one of the chins was probably a pink white.

The term "Wilson white" generally refers to a predominantly white chin usually a cross between a white and a standard. White mosaic could be all kinds of combinations of white and another mute or just standard. Like jags said knowing the true genetics of the grandparents would help.

 

[Dreamlite]

A wilson white and a white mosaic are the same colors. Its genetically a white plus a standard. White is a incomplete dominant, so it mixes with whatever other color it is crossed with. White+standard=mosaic or wilson white, white+beige=pink white.... and so on. If both parents are mosaic like you state, then only white and grey kits are possible. I can not open your pictures but I'm assuming by your dscription on of the parents may actually be a pink white. So that would make a beige kit possible. Ebony can be carried in a line especially a white without being easily noticed. I'm assuming neither of these chins has a pedigree.... so in most cases a white ebony will look the same as a mosaic.... so yes a tan kit is very possible

 

[TaylorMadeChinchillas]

Ok the chinchilla in the picture looks the be a hetero beige (beige + standard). Like others have said before me Wilson white is more of a description rather than a genetic combination. If one parent carries the beige gene, so a pink white for example (white + beige) then pairing it up with a mosaic (white + standard) could lead to making this kit.

 

[nikkik0720]

Personally, the kit looks to be a Hetero Beige like several others have said. I have one, and she looks identical.

 

[Zoaea]

Everyone answered most of your questions so I'll just add to it; there is only one type of white currently being bred (the other types are obscure and only confuse people less familar with genetics). Hat being said, people use many descriptive words for this one gene as it expresses it's self so diversly.

Wilson white, mosaic, silver, white, and pink white all are genetically the same white gene, it is indeed lethal in homozygous form. The main reason breeders avoid crossing two whites is related to it's texture being passed on. Better to cross with a standard or w/e that can strengthen the fur.

 

[ChinMom]

I will post these pictures that I was given of the mom and dad. Sorry they are not clear or good quality but it is all I have.

Mom

Dad

Again, I would like to have some kind of friendly discussion about this because it interests me. Please don't talk to me like I am some kind of imbecile just because I am new to posting on this forum. Maybe that isn't your intention but it sure makes me feel as though that is the case.

As you can see in the pictures of the parents, they appear to be a Wilson white and a mosaic just as they claim. Now if they were both nothing more than the plain old white, then they would carry the dominant white gene (A) and the recessive standard gene (a) creating "Aa." For babies, this would produce only the fatality (AA), the white (Aa), or the standard (aa). Correct so far? If one parent carried the dominant white gene (A) and the dominant beige gene (A) then the parent would be a pink white and would have "AA." The pink white (AA) and Wilson white (Aa) could produce babies that are the fatality (AA), the pink white (AA), the white (Aa), or the hetero beige (Aa). Neither parent looks like a pink white though. If the baby were a tan wrap he would need parents that were providing the dominant ebony gene (A) and the dominant beige gene (A) to produce AA. There are many possibilities and the parents themselves could have already been hybrids themselves. It is like a big puzzle and as such is interesting to me and I would like to figure out the possibilities and potential genetics involved. I have no idea beyond the parents, which makes it even more of a puzzle to solve. This is just something that caught my interest and I wanted to share and have fun with. Any fellow puzzle goers appreciated.

 

[ChinMom]

A white mosaic has the dominant white gene and the recessive beige gene.[/url]

Pardon my thought train here. I was mixing up my thinking on what the mom could be with what a mosaic could produce. So change this sentence to "A mosaic could provide the dominant white gene and the recessive standard gene." Then it would give the resulting babies mentioned. If the mom was a mosaic with the dominant white gene and recessive beige gene she could pass that along to her young which would explain where that came from, which was my train of thought at the time I was writing this.

 

[ChinMom]

No idea why the above posted photos of the parents are not showing up. Here are the links to them.

Dad
http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/sstes/media/DADwilson_reduced.jpg.html?o=0

Mom
http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/sstes/media/MOMmosaic_reduced.jpg.html?o=1

 

[ChinMom]

I do understand the concept of the whites in chinchillas, but allow me to elaborate for anyone reading who wants to know more. When referring to the way a chinchilla looks it is called the phenotype. When referring to their genetics it is called the genotype. In the dominant whites, the phenotype can refer to a Wilson white (so named after the Blythe Wilson ranch where it was first born in the 1950's) which should have dark ears and dark eyes with a predominantly white body. The genotype of the Wilson white is the dominant white gene and the recessive standard gene. Another is commonly called mosaic. A mosaic carries the dominant white gene and one of several other recessive genes such as standard, beige, or ebony. It can be difficult to tell the white/standard apart from the white/ebony without a pedigree. A Wilson white and a white/standard mosaic are essentially the same, except in the phenotype a mosaic usually has a patchy colored body while a Wilson white does not. There can also be what is referred to in phenotype as a silver, which gives the animal an overall gray appearance. There are varied patterns in the fur of the dominant whites and depend on how strongly the white gene expresses itself. You can also have what is known as a pink white, in which there is the dominant white gene and the dominant beige gene. Their phenotype is usually a white chinchilla with pink ears. A chinchilla with the white dominant and the beige recessive (as discussed previously) can be referred to as a beige mosaic or a pink white mosaic. This is not an all inclusive list of whites and there will undoubtedly be more types in the future as mutations continue, as well as a wide variation of the names that they are called. I am nowhere near an expert in any of this but hopefully I am correct in my understandings and have expressed it clearly.

I do have one question now in regard to the original discussion. If a parent has a recessive gene such as beige for example, can the baby inherit that gene but in them it will be dominant? Or is it only inherited the same as recessive?

 

[Narcissus]

Standard and beige are NOT recessive genes.
White is an "incomplete dominant gene" which is why you get the "mosaic" look when white is involved. For right now, you need to forget the term "wilson white". It is making it confusing. Wilson white and mosaic are the same genetically, those terms are used to describe patterns.
I can't see the pics of mom and dad, but I'm making an educated guess that one is a white mosaic (standard and white genes) and one is a pink white (white and beige genes).
so in this pairing the white mosaic threw it's standard gene and the pink white through its beige gene. Creating a hetero beige kit (beige and standard genes).
it is possible (I can't see the pics) that one or both of the parents have an ebony gene, which is hidden by the white gene. Which could have created a tan kit (beige, ebony and standard gene) the ebony gene works in very complicated ways.

 

[Narcissus]

I forgot to add. When you have a chin who is a white mosaic or a pink white they are showing both dominate genes. White mosaics show both standard and white. Pink white show both beige and white. Because white is an incomplete dominate gene it allows some (a little or a lot) of the other dominate gene (standard or beige) to show. Creating the "mosaic look or patterns"

 

[Stackie]

Whoah there, no one was making you out to be an imbecile and I don't see any posters that were out of line or rude. Not sure where you got that from or why you took on that attitude. But once again, standard and beige are NOT recessive genes. Ebony is NOT dominant, only recessive. I appreciate the "puzzle", but you need to do a bit more reading on chinchilla genetics if you're going to come here and try to educate people because you are incorrect on several things.

From the pictures of the parents, I don't see a pink white. But you also can't say that they are "wilson white" or "mosaic" or whatever just through pictures (and like it was mentioned, a white is a white is a white.) You need pedigrees. The chin in question doesn't look to be tan to me, as his belly appears white, making him a beige. One of the parents therefore HAS to be some form of beige. I'd question the breeders on this one.

 

[Narcissus]

Now that I can see the picture of the parents.... neither looks to be a pink white.... I would definitely question the breeder. Two mosaics can't produce a beige kit. One would have to be a pink white...

 

[Dreamlite]

Both parents are mosaics. So a beige is not possible. Beige does not come in a recessive so it can not be carried. A mosaic to mosaic pairing could only produce mosaics and standards. They have the wrong parents, wrong kit picture, or the female was bred to a different male and they are mistaken..... No one is saying you are an imbecile so chill out. We are trying to explain. The kit is clearly a beige and not a tan so you can forget about the ebony gene.
Just so you know white chins are whites. Mosaic is just a term to describe a white chin. Its not different genetically just cause it shows more or less markings. White is an incomplete dominant. Standard grey and beige are dominant genes.

 

[Narcissus]

Technically.... Sullivan beige is a recessive. But i don't think many breeders are working with it in the US. Let alone a small hobby breeder...

 

[Dreamlite]

That's why I don't even bother mentioning it. No need to confuse this person even more

 

[chinsNdobermans]

Any chance the father is not actually the father? I see two mosaic chins there, which means there'd be no chance of a beige/beige wrap being thrown. Unless the pictures of the parents are just that poor in quality that a pink white is being made to look like a mosaic, but that's taking a leap...

 

[ChinMom]

Apparently everything I have ever read is entirely false. Allow me to apologize for all the inaccuracies of the world. If you would be ever so kind as to point me in the direction of a professor or anyone who has studied chinchilla genetics on a scholarly level, any quality books written from an educated point of view, multiple web sites with studies or other reliable information, or anything in general that would be reliable sources to further my education I would surely appreciate it. Nothing would currently make me happier than to learn the correct information.