handfeeding richie

[mishellyshel]

As I have posted before my Richie has Malo and I have been handfeeding him.
I started last monday and he only weighed 615 and last night he weighed 638!

I started out feeding him just the critical care, wasnt a huge fan, but with lots of suggestions, i bought a coffee grinder and I grind up his pellets and mix them with one jar baby food squash and about 1/3 jar of apple/pear/bannana baby food(i cut this to 1/3 from almost a whole jar) I stopped adding the honey & dyne. He seems to be ok with this mixture.

Yesterday I got 72 cc's in him, which is the most so far. He has stopped eating pellets on his own though and while he will eat some treats it is not with the enthusiasm of before and i find when i give him even 1/2 a shredded wheat it decreases the moisture in his poo.

Now to my point! lol He still really hates being force fed, although he loves the after result which is 3 times a day playtime!! he has started hiding from me in his cage and making it much more difficult especially at night to get him out of the cage. in the am & usually in the afternoon, he is laying in his bed so i just pick that up with him in it.

I am also taking him to his regular vet tomorrow for her to evaluate the xrays and do an exam based on the others vets recommendation, plus he is almost out of metacam and i think he still needs it. as he is still pawing at his face occasionally (although it could be from it being sticky!)



It is harmful for them to be on metacam long term?
Is the mixture I am giving him okay?
Should I not handfeed him for a day and see if he eats on his own? (when he was eating the pellets it was in small amounts and he crumbled them)
He is still on the baytril for at least another 2 weeks
And lastly, he had such a beautiful coat and now it is green stained and sticky and missing patches..........is there anything i can do. I wipe his face after each feeding and every few days put drop of baby shampoo and water it down to get the sticky away. plus i comb his fur almost every night (which he likes).

overall he is doing ok. and should be moving into his new cage this weekend, which has lots more room and fun new stuff.
it is a little harder on me, because my free time at home is basically consumed with feeding him and because he gives me the sad look, i let him play for a long time which not only ties up the bathroom but my time, but he is worth it. He probably wont be with me for the time I had hoped so I want to make his life happy.
thanks for listening.

 

[tunes]

It is harmful for them to be on metacam long term? Metacam can affect the kidneys, so no, I would not want a chin on it long-term. When I have had to use it, I try to use it one or two days and that's it.

Is the mixture I am giving him okay? If he's gaining and it works, then use it. I'm a little confused though, you're not using the critical care at all? Just making up your own? If you are, I hope you are adding probiotic to it. I would still recommend the critical care over ground up pellets, but that's me. I don't give my chins a choice in whether they like it or not. They eat it because they need it.

Should I not handfeed him for a day and see if he eats on his own? (when he was eating the pellets it was in small amounts and he crumbled them) That rarely works. You just end up with a chin who eats nothing. Will he eat the mixture you are making from a bowl or a spoon, instead of a syringe? If he will, then mix it up and put it in the cage along with chunks of his pellets (not fine ground), then gradually up it to the normal size.

He is still on the baytril for at least another 2 weeks Why? If he has malo, Baytril isn't going to help. It's possible I'm not remembering something from the other thread, but why is he on Baytril again? You say "another 2 weeks" but it seems to me this has been going on for quite a long time. I don't know as I would keep a chin on Baytril for that length of time unless it was really, really necessary.

And lastly, he had such a beautiful coat and now it is green stained and sticky and missing patches..........is there anything i can do. I wipe his face after each feeding and every few days put drop of baby shampoo and water it down to get the sticky away. plus i comb his fur almost every night (which he likes). I think after extensive hand feeding, especially with the mess you are mixing up, it would be one of the times I would consider a water bath. I'm not a fan of them, but I think it reaches a point where it's just nasty all over them, and the pulling and irritation of the food on the fur and skin makes it worth giving it a shot. I would want to do it when the course of antibiotics and hand feeding is over, but since it doesn't look like that may be happening any time soon, you'll have to use your best judgment.

 

[AZChins]

I agree about the Baytril. Normally a week on Baytril is plenty to kill anything and have it gone for good. I don't like giving more than a week at a time because it is really harsh on the intestinal tract and can cause irritation and even small ulcers (that is if it is given orally.) Besides that, if given orally, it can really mess with appetite and destroy the bacterial balance of the intestines. Sometimes it can take months to get a chin back to normal even after just a week or two of treatment.

It took me six weeks to get a healthy female chin, who had a c-section, to get to eating on her own again after the baytril...be really careful with it. It's a wonderful tool when it's needed, but it can cause so many other problems.

 

[mishellyshel]

he has been on baytril for 3 weeks! and metacam & cisapride. i feel so bad.
i am seeing his regular vet tomorrow.
the original vet thought he had a mouth infection & gave me the trimeth (pink stuff), he still had the symptoms and i misunderstood and thought she didnt do xrays, so i brought him to an exotic specialist and she did the xrays and determined malo and started him on the baytril, metacam & cisapride.

no i stopped using the critical care because i thought i would be doing this long term so i figured he would be better off getting the nutrition from his pellets. Oh and yes I do add lifeline into the mix.........forgot to mention that. I have to mix up a batch today and I will add some xtra probiotic. i usually make enough for 2 - 3 days.
i tried the food on a spoon & food ina bowl route but that didnt work.
when i am ready, i will get advice on how to do a full bath, because he really needs it and he even bites at his fur sometimes where it is clumpy.

i feel so bad that he has been on these meds so long. what should i do to start getting his belly back to normal?

 

[Claire D]

I'm going to echo much of Peggy's post really.

You really should be feeding him OCC not a mixture that contains sweet fruit/veg baby food etc - just because he seems to like it does not mean it is good for him. Sweet fruit and vegetable baby foods can ferment in the gut if there is a lack of fibre and slower GI transit - this can lead to bloat and stasis.
That mix of food stuffs combined with the gut being stripped of flora by Baytril is a potential for disaster.
It is certainly worth persevering with the OCC rather than using a home made concoction. It is nutritionally balanced, specifically created for herbivores, and also contains probiotics.

Any medication decisions must be made in conjunction with your vet but I totally agree with Peggy & AZ Chins. Your chin should not be on it for as long as this.

 

[fluke]

thought standard antibiotic treatment was two weeks? either way, baytril seems way more effective if given subquetaneously and doesn't have such a negative effect on the GI tract.

I'm sorry to hear about all the problems Richie's been having, but he couldn't be in better hands. Good luck.

 

[Mt. Zion Chins]

My vet told me that giving baytril subq for awhile can cause the skin to died where the shots are being given. She said if you are giving for more than a few days, it really needs to be intermuscal

 

[mishellyshel]

Thank you all for the advice. I am going to do a combo of the Critical Care and the ground up pellets.....but I am going to cut out the fruit and just use the squash.
The Dr. also recommended that I try a mix with the ground up pellets and some baby green beans or some other green mix like spinach.

 

[fluke]

My vet told me that giving baytril subq for awhile can cause the skin to died where the shots are being given. She said if you are giving for more than a few days, it really needs to be intermuscal

you're right. sorry i just totally forgot...but baytril is supposed to be given IM. I dunno why I was thinking subq. either way, injections are better than giving it orally and also doesnt seem to suppress appetite as much.

 

[Chinniechantel]

If he is still in pain ask the vet for some tramado/ultram. It is better for long term use and works great for pain. I use it on my dental chin, and it does wonders. No fighting to get it in him either!

 

[mishellyshel]

If he is still in pain ask the vet for some tramado/ultram

she prescribed Torbugesic......is that the same??
I will definitely ask her about the other one if its not. Thanks so much!

 

[tunes]

Chantel - Do you mean Tramadol? I've never heard of Tramado, but Tramadol is an analgesic.

 

[Mt. Zion Chins]

I think she means tramadol (since Utram is a brand name of that) - I have taken it for 15 years for my arthritis - good stufff

 

[Godins Chinchillas]

Baytril can be given sub q. I treated usagi for 4 weeks when she had that aweful abscess in her groin. We injected sub q. I was also giving her sub q fluids so I would inject the baytril in her fluid pocket. Just need to make sure you dilute it down and give it deep sub q.

I'm with tunes. CC is better for animals that are down.

Jessica

 

[mishellyshel]

so he is off the baytril, only on metacam 3 x week & the cisapride & torbugesic 3x daily. i make a batch of critical care (with lifeline) and a batch of ground up pellets & a mix of baby food that contains mostly green beans, some squash & a spoonful of apple-pear-banana & of course lifeline. this mixture usually lasts about 3 days. He LOVES it!
He is finally getting accostomed to being syringe fed. still fights me at times, but actually reaches for the syringe when ready. i dont force him unless he has less than 20 cc's per feeding. he is less messy which makes him happier.
BUT.........he is still not eating any pellets and all weekend, he really wouldnt eat any treats. last night he did eat some oats and a small piece of shredded wheat.
should i just give him time on the pellets?
wait until he is at a higher weight and then try not to handfeed as much to see if he will eat if he is hungry?
i did add a different hay this weekend and i think he ate a little.....but its hard to tell with hay! i was going to try a variety of hays this week to see if that helps.
any other suggestions???

 

[Claire D]

i make a batch of critical care (with lifeline) and a batch of ground up pellets & a mix of baby food that contains mostly green beans, some squash & a spoonful of apple-pear-banana & of course lifeline. this mixture usually lasts about 3 days. He LOVES it!

He may love it but it's not a nutritionally balanced pellet substitute. Just because he likes it does not mean it is good for him - it is a really messed up diet in terms of nutrition.
Why are you persisting with the fruit and vegetable baby foods instead of straight OCC with a drizzle of black strap molasses or a taste of canned pumpkin? People have posted their suggestions and you seem to be ignoring them. *shrugs*

 

[mishellyshel]

i do give him the CC. he will not eat it with black strap molasses tho.
why are pellets not nutritionally balanced, if he wasnt sick that is what he would be eating. the green beans/squash were suggestions from 2 different vets & several members on this forum and it is just enough to get the pellets moist.
his poop is finally normal opposed to small or dry. and he actually doesnt try to fight me the whole time. i wasnt planning on doing this long term just until i can get him comfortable with the syringe feeding process.
But his prognosis isnt good and his life will probably be short anyway, so i am just trying to do anything to get his weight up. i will try the pumpkin and see if he will take that. thanks

 

[Claire D]

If you did the OCC on it's own or just soaked pellets on their own then yes, it would be nutritionally balanced. You could even use a combination of pellets and OCC. It is the fact that you are combining so many different foods (OCC + pellets + fruit and veggies + .......) in different combinations which makes it all unbalanced. It is too rich for the digestion and has the potential for fermentating in the gut.
I understand your reasoning for giving him what he likes, I really do, but he is never going to go back to a bland diet because he will be used to eating this rich stuff. It's not the right form of diet for a chinchilla - use the Lifeline in combination with the OCC/pellets but ditch all the rest except maybe a little pumpkin for taste.
Fair enough you are using the squash to add flavour but I would certainly cut out the green beans and the "apple-pear-banana". If that green/sweet stuff ferments in his gut he will become bloated and is at risk of developing stasis - that is something neither you nor he need on top of everything else - cut the risk by dropping those sweet and veg bits.

Please don't get me wrong - I've been here with maloccluding chins enough times to know how frustrating it is trying to get them to eat but feeding them a rich diet does not do your chinchilla or you any favours in the long run. You are far better off sticking to a bland, high fibre diet with an additional boost of flavour or calories by using pumpkin or black strap molasses and/or Lifeline.

I wish you all the best with him.

 

[mishellyshel]

hmmmmmmm.............maybe the reason he isnt eating the pellets! will start adding more ground pellets & less of the baby food mix and continue w/the lifeline and critical care.

is there a reason that the pumpkin is preferred over the squash? does the squash have more sugar? just that the cans of pumpkin are SO big and I can just get little baby food jars of the squash.......and make the mixture fresh.

 

[Claire D]

hmmmmmmm.............maybe the reason he isnt eating the pellets!

Yes it could well be - if his pain is being controlled and he can actually eat then I'd suspect he is preferring the sweet/rich stuff to his "boring" pellets.

will start adding more ground pellets & less of the baby food mix and continue w/the lifeline and critical care.

is there a reason that the pumpkin is preferred over the squash? does the squash have more sugar? just that the cans of pumpkin are SO big and I can just get little baby food jars of the squash.......and make the mixture fresh.

I guess you could use squash but I think pumpkin is a little more flavourful - chins certainly seem to like it. The canned pumpkin is just pure pumpkin puree and you can put it into icecube trays to freeze it - each cube is the perfect size for 2 feeds.

Good luck.