Darn It - Should Have Went to the Vet Sooner - Probably Giardia

[Angelyco]

I'm going to be picking up some acidiphilus while I'm picking up the medication tonight. I've give them 3 doses of Pectillin (just started it 1.5 days ago), no help so far. The vet told me I could stop the Pectillin if it's not helping.

I already wash the water bottle every time I give them water.

 

[AZChins]

That's good. Get the highest organism count that you can find in the probiotic. You'll need to go to a vitamin store or a very well stocked grocery store to find something that will work well. I've been using the "PB8" brand for quite awhile and I really like it. It's not the absolute highest organism count but for the price and the fact that it is shelf stable it's a good product.

It's good that you're washing the waterbottles. A lot of chins end up with serious diarrhea because of dirty bottles or dirty water nozzles. Bacteria grows like crazy in waterbottles because it's wet and at room temperature at all times...not to mention that if you have a chin that is ill it can dirty up the waterbottle and recontaminate.

 

[Angelyco]

I picked up this probiotic from GNC: http://www.gnc.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3630796

None of the plain acidophilus supplements had a high enough count. This should be good though, the acidophilus alone has a 10 billion count.

Can this be given while they're taking the Flagyl? I read some info about staggering antibiotics and probiotics, but not sure if there is any interaction between these two. Also, since this is for treatment and not maintenance, how often/long should I give them the acidophilus?

 

[Spoof]

Stagger them to be on the safe side. I have also used acidophilus from GNC - the type that doesn't need to be refrigerated lasts the longest. )

 

[Angelyco]

Okay, now I'm getting a little frustrated.

The metronidazole is basically gone, it should have been a week's worth and it fell about 2 days short. Pearl's poop looks like it's almost better, but no real change with Diamond.

I spoke to the vet again and he needs to "brainstorm" more. I asked him about fenbendazole and he told me he has no solid reason to give it to her since it's purely anti-parasitic and nothing came back in the fecal test, but he said it wouldn't hurt either, so I can go pick some up from the office if I want to try it while he comes up with a better plan.

This sticky poo thing is getting old really fast :banghead:

 

[mishellyshel]

ok lets revisit. what exactly to you give her to eat. mention everything by brand and amount and when. maybe all these changes are just stressing her.

i have had chins get soft poop for a week or so from the stress of moving location or a food change.

i am thinking that you have too many changes and medications going on.

stick to the basics ONLY. good quality pellet, good fresh hay and clean water only.
do that for 2 - 4 weeks and see what the poop looks like. no treats except wood sticks. and no more meds. no probiotics, nothing but pellets, hay, & water.

that is what i would do instead of keep adding meds, changing food, moving the chin around, taking to vet. etc...

 

[Angelyco]

There were about 2 weeks with nothing but Oxbox hay and fresh water. No changes, no pellets or treats or anything else, and there were no changes in her poop.

Here is the full time line, though:

Feb 19 - Brought Pearl home

Feb 28 - Brought Diamond home. Both were eating Kaytee pellets and Kaytee hay. Pearl's poop was always good, Diamond's poop was always a little sticky and soft. They each had 1 raisin twice the first week.

March 16 - Diamond had bad diarrhea, smeared poop EVERYWHERE. There was nothing obvious that changed here. Diamond had only had 2 raisins the first week, no treats after that, so the week leading up to this was no changes - same food, hay, and water.

March 17 - Went to the vet, fecal test came back clean. I was told to separate them, and give Diamond nothing but hay and water. I switched to Oxbow hay. Diamond had a few hours of perfect poop, then back to the same soft, sticky consistency as before, but no smear-y diarrhea. This was the ONLY time she had normal poop, I don't know what the difference was.

March 22 - Put them back together in the cage, Pearl managed to escape from the smaller cage and they were unhappy apart. I started giving Shredded Wheat. Still only hay besides that.

Around March 25 (not sure exactly when) - gave a small amount of Oxbow pellets. I was told to get rid of the Kaytee cold turkey. The next morning, the cage had the smeared poop all over again from Diamond, Pearl was still normal. Immediately removed the pellets. Still gave hay and Shredded Wheat, poop went back to "regular" soft and sticky.

Around April 1 - Stopped giving the Shredded Wheat, it wasn't making a difference.

April 8 - Tried a small amount of Oxbow pellets again, more smeared poop. Took pellets away again.

April 12 - Pearl's poop got soft, and has been soft ever since. The only thing I gave her was a few nibbles of a dipped apple twig from Camphor Chins, it had either rosehip powder or dandelion powder. I only gave it to her once though, she hasn't had it since. I started giving both girls Pet Pectillin per some advice here.

April 14 - Gave both acidophilus in some shredded wheat. Stopped the Pectillin, both had 4 doses total. No difference.

April 15 - Started the metronidazole and put the pellets back in with acidophilus. Someone told me the poop gets worse with the pellets because her stomach needs to adjust, and that it will never adjust if I keep taking it away. They've had pellets with a little acidophilus ever since. The poop hasn't gotten worse, but hasn't gotten better either.

So between April 1 and April 12 (except for the few hours I gave pellets on the 8th) ALL they had was hay and water, and they were together. Nothing else changed. They only went to the vet once, the rest of the conversations were done over the phone.

It seems no matter what I do, her "baseline" that she keeps returning to is soft and sticky. I would love to know what triggered the one blessed morning I woke up to regular poop. I don't know why Pearl's poop changed last week though and hasn't gotten back to normal yet. Her poop was normal ever since we got her.

EDIT - One more thing - I got them both from PetSmart, not from a breeder, so their health and conditions before I got them is unknown.

 

[ticklechin]

I may have missed it but did you give the albon?

 

[Angelyco]

No, I asked the vet about it but I didn't pursue it, especially since he prescribed the metronidazole.

 

[AZChins]

I guess if the current meds don't work, you could try Albon. It's really strange that nothing at all helped at least a little.

 

[ticklechin]

Its a pretty mild antibiotic used to treat inflamation of the digestive tract, IMO it would not hurt to get it.

 

[Angelyco]

Would it be wiser to try Albon or the Fenbendazole (Panacur)? The Fenben. is waiting for me at the vet right now, but I could ask for Albon instead if that might be a better idea.

 

[ticklechin]

Since the vet said they found no parasites I don't know if the Panacur has any other anti inflamitory properties like albon besides being a antiparasitic.

 

[Angelyco]

I have a question though, if a chin DOES have parasites, isn't it possible that a single stool sample might not have any parasites in it? I've been curious about that for awhile.

 

[ticklechin]

Do you know what test you paid for to detect parasites? A fecal float or ELISA or both? When I treated giardia moons ago the treatment regiment was 5 days on, 3 days off, 5 days on and a recheck but that was with a diagnosis of giardia. I am assuming your vet did not go with the normal regiment for treatment since no parasites were found. I am not sure why if there was none found he did not move on to treating enteritis and checking for bad bacteria in the poo. I also wonder if this is all just stress related and all the different things being tried is just mucking things up, just a thought on my part but since I am not there to actually see and smell and observe the poo and chins its hard to say.

 

[Angelyco]

He was very certain that it was just stress or diet. I'm pretty sure it was just a fecal float, but I don't have the invoice with me right now.

 

[Sycamore Chins]

I have a question though, if a chin DOES have parasites, isn't it possible that a single stool sample might not have any parasites in it? I've been curious about that for awhile.

Yes, definitely - and some parasites don't show up in fecals period.

I would scrub the cage down again, scrub water bottle again, put them on straight hay. Then do 3 fecals in one week. Ask them if they have different fecal solutions they can use, because each fecal solution has a different specific gravity and are more useful at targeting different parasites (though there is some overlap).

 

[Angelyco]

I understand that trying all these different things probably didn't help much now, but it doesn't answer why it happened in the first place. At the beginning, we had her for a full 2 weeks, her poop was always soft and sticky, and without ANY changes, she had the one night of really bad diarrhea. Everything else started after that, but there is nothing that I can see for what caused it in the first place.

 

[ticklechin]

Stress in the pet store, you do not know how long or short she was there or what she went through prior to getting there or during her stay.

 

[Angelyco]

But for the bad diarrhea to come up 2 weeks later?