ticklechin
Well-known member
Then why on earth stress the chin out by keeping them at that temp? Sorry I think that is cruel.
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Then why on earth stress the chin out by keeping them at that temp? Sorry I think that is cruel.
Stackie
I bite.
I agree with Peggy. Everytime I see you post about chins be able to live in temps of 80 degrees, outside in sizzling temps and hurricanes, I cringe. Can they? Maybe. Is it healthy for them? I can't see how when it has been proven that chins can easily overheat in those temps. I could probably live in a cage with a temp of 100 degrees but am I going to be comfortable? Um, probably not.
Forcing chinchillas to live in temperatures above their commonly known comfort zone is borderline cruelty IMO. Why would you force them to "acclimate" to temperatures that have been PROVEN deadly? I really hope someone doesn't see these constant posts about chins being ok in 80 degrees, do so, and come home to find a dead chin that has sucummbed to overheating.
Anyway.....I also agree that the chinchillas need to be kept inside, in a climate controlled environment. Save the space outside for some other animal that is more comfortable outside, and just keep them in their inside enclosure. I would take Moon up on her offer.
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Forcing chinchillas to live in temperatures above their commonly known comfort zone is borderline cruelty IMO. Why would you force them to "acclimate" to temperatures that have been PROVEN deadly? I really hope someone doesn't see these constant posts about chins being ok in 80 degrees, do so, and come home to find a dead chin that has sucummbed to overheating.
Anyway.....I also agree that the chinchillas need to be kept inside, in a climate controlled environment. Save the space outside for some other animal that is more comfortable outside, and just keep them in their inside enclosure. I would take Moon up on her offer.
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Spoof
Kung Fu Chinny!
Observation when I get rescues. Many people in the south keep their houses at 78 in the winter and only cool to 80 in the summer.
Chins that have not been acclimated will easily overheat. Your house is 65, chin goes to 80, it's going to have a stroke. Chin lives at 75, goes to 80 it's uncomfortable, but not fatal.
Shoot, the ones that live outside here are in 110+ degrees with high humidity. 80 is with the a/c on indoors.
Many large ranches have open air barns. The cobys had 5,000 animals and no a/c. Temps reached well over 110 in the summer and below 0 in the winter but they did spectacularly in the business. They had no heating nor cooling, I've attached a photo of one of their barns.
I don't think that a pet chin should be subject to those extremes, they're pets. They live where we do.
Attachments
ticklechin
Well-known member
That may very well be, but its not right and frankly something that should be kept to yourself, since it can give the wrong idea and kill chins.
alli713
..has a fleece addiction
I don't know, but at a scale like that with keeping them outside in temps like that, it almost is like a puppy mill. Can the chins survive at those temps and conditions? Perhaps, but it's obviously not ideal.
Ash
Trouble....
So because these animals are used for making money, they are not to be kept at temperatures that are deemed safe and comfortable for them? I agree with Alli, it sounds like the chinchilla equivalent of a puppy mill.
K
kellyzoo
Guest
chinchilla's at the zoo
Thank you all for the comments and advice. As I stated before, the two chinchilla's that we currently have will be brought inside when the temps would start to climb above 70 degrees/humidity levels rise.
However, after careful thought, we have decided to pull them off outdoor exhibit this weekend. We really don't want the public thinking they can just leave pet store chins outside without precautions.. We are able to carefully monitor the animals and bring them indoors in case of a weather/temp change. I don't think many pet owners are able to do so and we don't want our example to influence others to start keeping these guys outside..
I have started to plan out an indoor exhibit that will mimic as naturalistic as possible enviorment for them. They'll have to be house in a smaller enclosure inside until this is completed, but at least we don't have to worry about temp and humidity fluctuations while we get the exhibit ready.
I think I will take the one poster up on her suggestion and follow up with them for some advice/tips.
Thanks again!
Thank you all for the comments and advice. As I stated before, the two chinchilla's that we currently have will be brought inside when the temps would start to climb above 70 degrees/humidity levels rise.
However, after careful thought, we have decided to pull them off outdoor exhibit this weekend. We really don't want the public thinking they can just leave pet store chins outside without precautions.. We are able to carefully monitor the animals and bring them indoors in case of a weather/temp change. I don't think many pet owners are able to do so and we don't want our example to influence others to start keeping these guys outside..
I have started to plan out an indoor exhibit that will mimic as naturalistic as possible enviorment for them. They'll have to be house in a smaller enclosure inside until this is completed, but at least we don't have to worry about temp and humidity fluctuations while we get the exhibit ready.
I think I will take the one poster up on her suggestion and follow up with them for some advice/tips.
Thanks again!
Spoof
Kung Fu Chinny!
Thanks Kelly, that will make a better impression on the pet folks.
Puppy mill? How about chinchilla ranching? You do realize that Chapman kept his animals outside, right? Many ranchers still do. Chinchillas came to the U.S. long before air conditioning did. And yes, the point of ranching is to make money, it's a business. If chins hadn't been profitable in the past they would not be here as a wide-spread pet animal today.
This isn't just a pet forum, it's a neutral forum where we educate people. Part of running a herd in a place as hostile to chins as the south requires acute knowledge of what does, and does not kill chinchillas in regards to temperature.
Just out of curiosity Tara, what ranchers keep their animals outside without a/c? None of the large ones, or even smallish ones, that I know of do. I could rattle of a large list of names and none of them keep them outside. Do the ones that keep them outside live in a climate where they can?
Also, you're comparing apples to oranges when you talk about Chapman keeping them outside as compared to today. Look at HIS chins and look at today's chins. Also, when he first brought them over, was there even air conditioning to be had? Saying that Chapman kept them outside so we can too is like saying they should be fed the exact same diet that wild chinchillas are. These are domesticated animals and they have been for 50+ years. It is absolutely not the same as when Chapman first brought them here.
ticklechin
Well-known member
I would like to think that if one was going to have chins in the south, one would have a/c and a back up generator and not learn how to raise chins to live in 100 deg temps from one person on a internet forum. What is the point of raising thin fured skinny chins that are the result of being raised in 100 deg plus temps?
Ash
Trouble....
It's not a matter of making a "better impression" on the "pet folks". It's a matter of doing what is right by the animal. Chinchillas are NOT bred for warm climates. Can they adapt to it? Yeah, sure, but they are going to be miserable, and they are not going to have the thick fur for which they were originally bred for.
And um, who are the "Cobys"?
starleomach
Dawnna's Keeper
Messing with temperature is not good. they may be able to adjust but it is just cruel. You really have to also be careful about advice you give. It just takes on idiot to take your advice to justify no A/C and have a dead chinchilla. I would bet any chinchillas in the hotter temperatures are crappy quality part of what makes nice quality animals is the thick dense fur. Those "out door" ranch animals must look like Sh** to be blunt and would be a waste to even breed. Why breed low quality animals?
As to giving advice on the forum that things are safe..there are a lot of things I feel comfortable doing after years and years of chinchillas and I would not post many of them on here as it would not work out for someone who didn't know what they are doing. I treat many medical issues in my house myself but always recommend a vet to "pet people" it isn't because I don't love my animals and it isn't to just give a good impression to "pet people" it is because with life experiance you learn but it just takes one idiot to twist what you say.
so now there is going to be someone crying my chinchilla died I let it get to 80 but that isn;t too hot cause so and so said so....you really need to take the people your telling information to into account. I have seen chinchillas die in car rides home from people who after being told they need a/c cranked still drive home with just the windows down because they "read it on the internet" I had it happen twice this year with people picking up became a huge mess when I refused to replace an animal they killed by ignoring my advice when they heard somewhere else it was ok.
As to giving advice on the forum that things are safe..there are a lot of things I feel comfortable doing after years and years of chinchillas and I would not post many of them on here as it would not work out for someone who didn't know what they are doing. I treat many medical issues in my house myself but always recommend a vet to "pet people" it isn't because I don't love my animals and it isn't to just give a good impression to "pet people" it is because with life experiance you learn but it just takes one idiot to twist what you say.
so now there is going to be someone crying my chinchilla died I let it get to 80 but that isn;t too hot cause so and so said so....you really need to take the people your telling information to into account. I have seen chinchillas die in car rides home from people who after being told they need a/c cranked still drive home with just the windows down because they "read it on the internet" I had it happen twice this year with people picking up became a huge mess when I refused to replace an animal they killed by ignoring my advice when they heard somewhere else it was ok.
aznmexaggie
Chinchilla Chateau
I have visited four ranches here in CA, all of which have densely-furred, very nice quality animals. All of these ranchers have done very well at National Shows. None of them keep their chins outside or without A/C. I would bet anyone who raises their chins in an outdoor environment like that is not going to have the best quality chins. Even their pelts wouldn't bring in much if they are subjected to such warm temperatures. Acclimating a chin to warm temperarures would cause the chin to have much thinner fur. The number of follicles on the animal won't change but a warm environment will decrease the number of hairs growing per follicle. Plus, why stress the animal out in the first place? Even the wild chinchillas are not from a warm climate.
RDZCRanch
RavenousDeadlyZombieChins
While ranching is a business for making money, most ranchers respect their animals. Clearly, the animals kept in open barns and forced to "regulate" themselves were not even given the courtesy of being regarded as livestock.
Chapman's animals were directly from the Andes. Have you seen a while chinchilla? They look nothing like our domesticated chinchillas fur-wise. We have bred them for over 80 years to get thicker, plushier coats with larger chinchillas. They NEED to be regulated unless you are breeding for looser, lighter fur which is undesirable.
I know no rancher TODAY that would tell people to just let their chinchillas regulate themselves to temperatures in your area. I am in the desert and temperatures rise above 112 in the summer. I've talked to several ranchers about what it would take to keep chinchillas in their own building out here. They have ALL told me that I would need a building with an a/c and an evaporative cooler and to put a shade structure over the building with something to mist the building on exceptionally hot days and my building will stay below 70 on even the hottest days. Why, if they are all as you are portraying them, are they telling me to keep a building below 70 and not let my chinchillas get used to the desert temperatures? Obviously, because that is just NOT the way things are done these days. Bowen ranch has over 5000 chinchillas and not one of them has lived their lives above 70. It's cheaper to not spend the money on the cooling, but if someone with 5000 animals can do it, then I can do it for my small herd of 70 and not make excuses based on something some other idiot did in the past.
Chapman's animals were directly from the Andes. Have you seen a while chinchilla? They look nothing like our domesticated chinchillas fur-wise. We have bred them for over 80 years to get thicker, plushier coats with larger chinchillas. They NEED to be regulated unless you are breeding for looser, lighter fur which is undesirable.
I know no rancher TODAY that would tell people to just let their chinchillas regulate themselves to temperatures in your area. I am in the desert and temperatures rise above 112 in the summer. I've talked to several ranchers about what it would take to keep chinchillas in their own building out here. They have ALL told me that I would need a building with an a/c and an evaporative cooler and to put a shade structure over the building with something to mist the building on exceptionally hot days and my building will stay below 70 on even the hottest days. Why, if they are all as you are portraying them, are they telling me to keep a building below 70 and not let my chinchillas get used to the desert temperatures? Obviously, because that is just NOT the way things are done these days. Bowen ranch has over 5000 chinchillas and not one of them has lived their lives above 70. It's cheaper to not spend the money on the cooling, but if someone with 5000 animals can do it, then I can do it for my small herd of 70 and not make excuses based on something some other idiot did in the past.
Riven
Bad Chin
Chins living in building with no a/c or heat depends on the climate. I know many of the ranchers in South America ( perhaps all of them?) do not heat or cool. I can't verify the climate in those areas, but I know that on the pelt market South America is kicking our butts on quality, same in pelt shows, and if it was economical for them to bring live animals, I'm sure they'd be doing it in the live animal shows too.
Everything is relative. Know your animals, know their limits, and know your environment.
Chapman brought chins here less than 100 years ago... there are people who are still alive that were alive when that happened. Are they wild? No, but like wise they haven't been domesticated for centuries. If you figure a chin lives 20 years, that is only 5 generations removed from a wild chin. Comparing a shih tzu to a wolf is not even relevant. In 5 generations you can not go from a shih tzu to a wolf using selective breeding.
And lastly, the person who post pics of the difference in wild chins from domestic chins, you are ill advised. Wild chins look JUST like domestic chins, taking photos off people's online photo albums is not the ideal way to try to prove a point as that is not a wild chin.
http://www.wildchinchillas.org/
My point of view is know your animals, know your environment, know their limits. A zoo is not a pet education center. People keep monkey's as pets, but do they go to the zoo expecting to learn how to care for them? No. People keep parrots as pets, but again they do not go to the zoo expecting to learn how to care for them. If you are expecting the zoo to teach people how to care for chins as pets, you just as well tell them to get a FN and fill it full of hammocks and huts.
Am I saying zoos should keep their chins outside come **** or high water... I didn't say either way what I think, but I think that it's only ideal for people to know more facts before making decisions.
Everything is relative. Know your animals, know their limits, and know your environment.
Chapman brought chins here less than 100 years ago... there are people who are still alive that were alive when that happened. Are they wild? No, but like wise they haven't been domesticated for centuries. If you figure a chin lives 20 years, that is only 5 generations removed from a wild chin. Comparing a shih tzu to a wolf is not even relevant. In 5 generations you can not go from a shih tzu to a wolf using selective breeding.
And lastly, the person who post pics of the difference in wild chins from domestic chins, you are ill advised. Wild chins look JUST like domestic chins, taking photos off people's online photo albums is not the ideal way to try to prove a point as that is not a wild chin.
http://www.wildchinchillas.org/
My point of view is know your animals, know your environment, know their limits. A zoo is not a pet education center. People keep monkey's as pets, but do they go to the zoo expecting to learn how to care for them? No. People keep parrots as pets, but again they do not go to the zoo expecting to learn how to care for them. If you are expecting the zoo to teach people how to care for chins as pets, you just as well tell them to get a FN and fill it full of hammocks and huts.
Am I saying zoos should keep their chins outside come **** or high water... I didn't say either way what I think, but I think that it's only ideal for people to know more facts before making decisions.
mishalaa
Irish Chinchilla
Kelly - my mother is best friends with the senior keeper of the small mammal house at the National Zoo in DC. I have spoken with her and she is willing to do a behind the scenes tour with you. If you are interested in this, she will need your name, the name of your zoo/organization that you work for, and a time frame so she can put a request in for your visit. You can either give this info to me and I will pass it on, or I can PM you her contact info.
Unfortunately, their chinchillas passed away recently (I believe they were in their teens, but they are still waiting for test results to come back) and they are in the process of locating more from another AZA accredited institution. However, the exhibit is still there and the chinchilla keeper is willing to talk with you as well as the senior keeper.
I am glad you decided to keep them indoors. I was worried more about the dampness than the temps - I grew up in Maryland and know how slushy the winters can be. Nobody wants to see a soggy chin!
Unfortunately, their chinchillas passed away recently (I believe they were in their teens, but they are still waiting for test results to come back) and they are in the process of locating more from another AZA accredited institution. However, the exhibit is still there and the chinchilla keeper is willing to talk with you as well as the senior keeper.
I am glad you decided to keep them indoors. I was worried more about the dampness than the temps - I grew up in Maryland and know how slushy the winters can be. Nobody wants to see a soggy chin!
AZChins
Pro Cage Cleaner Champion
I've actually never met a rancher without air conditioning or at least with some type of cooling system for their chinchillas. It's news to me that anyone keeps chins outside at over 110 degrees! I hope that that isn't really the case. Even if they were acclimated to a higher temperature, I don't think that they would make it over 100 degrees for too long and if they do it could really harm them.
I, personally, receive maybe 20 to 40 calls a year with someone completely hysterical because their chin is dying from heat stroke. Here in Arizona air conditioning is a must...or at least a swamp cooler with someone around all the time to make sure that it doesn't get too hot or too humid in the house (people who are at home all day are few and far between!!!) Every person seems to know that the chins should have been kept cool...some people have it happen because the a/c goes out and some people intentionally turn off the air conditioning during the day to "save money." I'm sick of hearing about it...chins need to be kept cool and no one should try to think that the rules do not apply!
I keep my chins at around 72ish or lower...cooler in the winter since I don't use heat. They are happy and active and do really well. I could keep them at a higher temperature, but they really like being cooler. They'll live if you get them up to 80, but why keep them uncomfortable? They're fur starts to look really cruddy at that temperature...and the humidity would have to be exceptionally low!
I guess the bottom line is that these animals are bred for fur...fur keeps animals warm in cold climates! If you want pretty fur and a happy chin, you have to provide a cooler place for it to live. Really, the best any of us can do is provide a fairly minimal level of cool at even 70 degrees or thereabouts.
For nice fur quality it would stand to reason that it would be necessary for it to be cooler, right? The plusher the coat could get with cooler temps. I notice that in the winter when it gets under 60 degrees consistently in the chin rooms that they stop losing so much fur and they look a heck of a lot better than they do at 75ish. Plush coats don't do much good when it's warm because fur isn't really a cooling mechanism.
If you have the ability to keep them cool, why not keep them cool? Why push it up as high as possible? One lady I picked up chins from had them at 86 degrees and she was proud of herself for keeping them at that temperature...she thought it was wonderful that she kept her air conditioning "that low." The chins looked like crap and they were stressed beyond belief....why do that to them? (I nearly smacked her...and I got the chins into the car with ice bottles and right in front of my freezing cold A/C!)
I, personally, receive maybe 20 to 40 calls a year with someone completely hysterical because their chin is dying from heat stroke. Here in Arizona air conditioning is a must...or at least a swamp cooler with someone around all the time to make sure that it doesn't get too hot or too humid in the house (people who are at home all day are few and far between!!!) Every person seems to know that the chins should have been kept cool...some people have it happen because the a/c goes out and some people intentionally turn off the air conditioning during the day to "save money." I'm sick of hearing about it...chins need to be kept cool and no one should try to think that the rules do not apply!
I keep my chins at around 72ish or lower...cooler in the winter since I don't use heat. They are happy and active and do really well. I could keep them at a higher temperature, but they really like being cooler. They'll live if you get them up to 80, but why keep them uncomfortable? They're fur starts to look really cruddy at that temperature...and the humidity would have to be exceptionally low!
I guess the bottom line is that these animals are bred for fur...fur keeps animals warm in cold climates! If you want pretty fur and a happy chin, you have to provide a cooler place for it to live. Really, the best any of us can do is provide a fairly minimal level of cool at even 70 degrees or thereabouts.
For nice fur quality it would stand to reason that it would be necessary for it to be cooler, right? The plusher the coat could get with cooler temps. I notice that in the winter when it gets under 60 degrees consistently in the chin rooms that they stop losing so much fur and they look a heck of a lot better than they do at 75ish. Plush coats don't do much good when it's warm because fur isn't really a cooling mechanism.
If you have the ability to keep them cool, why not keep them cool? Why push it up as high as possible? One lady I picked up chins from had them at 86 degrees and she was proud of herself for keeping them at that temperature...she thought it was wonderful that she kept her air conditioning "that low." The chins looked like crap and they were stressed beyond belief....why do that to them? (I nearly smacked her...and I got the chins into the car with ice bottles and right in front of my freezing cold A/C!)
K
kellyzoo
Guest
Mish--sent you a PM.thank you!
VolunteerChin22
I <3 dustbunnies
Because it's cheaper and thus more money in the pocket of the breeder which is disgusting to me that someone would skimp on living conditions to save a buck.:vomit:
I consider it luck, not skilled judgement, that other breeders managed not to kill their whole herd at that temperature, I for one am not someone who would take the chance on that here in the south.
People can survive outside at 110 degree temps but you dont see many of them enjoying it and they aren't covered in fur.
I agree with your other points as well AZ.
Kellyzoo - glad to hear about your decision! I think they will do much better in the indoor enclosure. Please post pictures and keep us updated on your progress:thumbsup:
AZChins
Pro Cage Cleaner Champion
Yeah, I guess it isn't about money with me. I tend to name all the chins and remember them and talk to them like they are people...but then again, I am sort of crazy when it comes to my animals.
Didn't Chapman keep his chins outside in earthen shelters and at some people didn't he have some sort of cooling (and maybe heating system) that worked with the outdoor cages? I don't think they were every really outside like we think of just a cage standing alone under a tree outside. But, I could be very wrong about that.
I really don't want any new people, who could potentially adopt my babies, to think that it's okay to just wing it and let the chins get warm.
I am glad that the zoo chins will be well cared for!
Didn't Chapman keep his chins outside in earthen shelters and at some people didn't he have some sort of cooling (and maybe heating system) that worked with the outdoor cages? I don't think they were every really outside like we think of just a cage standing alone under a tree outside. But, I could be very wrong about that.
I really don't want any new people, who could potentially adopt my babies, to think that it's okay to just wing it and let the chins get warm.
I am glad that the zoo chins will be well cared for!
