chin with lost pedigree

[ticklechin]

If I was one of the newbie breeders and read these phrases, in this thread, I would say its ok to breed whatever. The ones who are against breeding without a pedigree are the ones getting picked on by those who aren't.


once bought a family of 4 that came from "one of the OH breeders" but the guy couldn't remember which one

We got a herd and had no history on the animals

I have no clue what any of his animals are out of because he didn't keep pedigrees

but I take the risk and breed anything I think looks amazing

you bet I'd snatch it up. Petco, craigslist, who cares

 

[Pookinaround]

Find me someone willing to part with a pedigreed one of these and I will gladly buy in in a heartbeat... In the meantime she is over 4 healthy as a horse and is huuuuge so my biggest concern is improving her color not stressing over not having her pedigree.

 

[symphle]

Dawn this thread isnt about breeding whatever. Those phrases are out of context.

 

[RDZCRanch]

Any serious newbie breeder would read the entire postings and not pick and choose random sentences to support practices that have been clearly stated as not proper or ethical. A BYB or "breader" would do exactly what you did and pick and choose sentences that they can take out of context to support whatever the heck they want to do. We can't change their minds regardless. I'm not going to go onto public forums and lie about what I have in my herd or my practices or beliefs just because of the fear that possibly, somewhere out there is an incredibly dense newbie breeder who can't comprehend a paragraph. I like to think that serious newbie breeders are smart enough to understand the difference between it being ok to breed an animal with a lost pedigree that you know where they came from and an animal with no pedigree from a pet store.

The last two sentences which would be 40% of your "argument" are from Tara and I've already said that Tara's opinions are her own. They don't reflect mine or many other breeders I have talked to.

Danko's lines are well known to not have a full history. His animals are deep in the pedigrees of many of the mutations we have today and I know of several herds that were founded on Danko animals. If there were genetic maladies from his herd, we would have seen them pop up long before now.

 

[ticklechin]

I don't care if you all are whacking on me, this thread sucks with its message and I am not the only one in this thread who thinks so, but since I am just a skuzzy pet owner I get whacked. Typical of this community, protect regardless of practices. You would think that with all the yacking about picking on newbie BYBS about breeding more would be said about what is going on in this thread against breeding practices. Nope, won't happen.:banghead:

 

[symphle]

No one is whacking you and def not because your a pet owner. Your opinion is just as valuable as everyone else. I have yet to see a thread in this community that protects regardless of practices! This is one of the most open communities Ive been in...if you are doing something that is consider bad for chinchillas you will be given an honest opinion about it.

IMO, I would not most likely not breed without a pedigree. Unless i knew it was a show stopper. But id have to know the source of the chinchilla...the mystery background is spooky. These guys have been breeding a while and Im sure they fully comprehend the risks and are able to take them.

 

[RDZCRanch]

What you just wrote makes no sense at all. I'm not defending anything, to defend something I have to feel I'm in the wrong. I'm trying to explain that there is a difference between a lost pedigree and an animal with no pedigree. You seem to think they are one and the same and consider breeding a lost pedigree animal just as bad as breeding a rescue.

There is only ONE person on this thread that is outspoken about breeding animals with no pedigree or no known history. I am not defending her practices and I don't see anyone else who is. I've already stated I don't agree with her...I don't see how that is defending her practices.

I don't breed rescues, chins off CL, or pet store chinchillas. All of my animals, whole pedigree or less, have come from reputable breeders that I know and trust. I have had a few malo chins over the years, but so has everyone else. I culled and informed the breeders who also split pairings and culled animals.

 

[CTChin]

I would never tell a newbie to breed without a pedigree. However, I think if you have been in chins for a long time, you have a much better eye for quality. I look back on pics of some of my first chins and I thought they were gorgeous. Now I can look at them and think...not a full enough neck, color is off etc.

Some of my pedigrees from large ranchers are the most vague lol. I can match up the letters and know who the bloodline is but unless you pick the ranchers brain, you really don't know what you have.

Pedigree chins will have malo too. Unfortunately there is no escape completely from that. When I buy an a young chin or adult, the first thing I do is check out their jawline with my fingers and check the front teeth. You can learn a lot from doing that with your herd.

 

[Pookinaround]

Dawn, nobody is whacking on you just because you are a pet owner. I think that what people are saying here is to look at the big picture as a whole not just one element of how someone chooses breeding stock. There is a biiiig difference between trying to use a select few animals in their herd and someone just grabbing any ol' cheap chin they can just to make babies and not having a care in the world about overall quality.

 

[Riven]

I wouldn't breed a chin that I have no idea on the background on such as a rescue or what not, but I have gotten nice chins out of herds that the pedigrees got lost during a move/water leak/ or eaten. I knew that the person I got them from was comfortable enough breeding them and had previously had the pedigree.

Things that upset me is people breeding with no idea of pedigrees AND no idea of quality animals, fur or health wise. I will breed an animal that is not ideal because of it's pedigree. I sold a male, he was a smaller male, but I told the person he'd pass on size, and he did, because I knew his pedigree I knew what his offspring would be like as it was lines I'd worked with for many years. When I sold the majority of my animals apparently the buyer didn't care about keeping the pedigrees straight because there are animals being sold that I know didn't exist such as offspring of certain animals with my ear tags in them, animals I know didn't produce for me or didn't produce anything that could be the animal that it supposedly was. I offered all my resources and to help fill in or replace pedigrees as needed and sent a pedigree for every animal that had one. My help can attest to that as she was worried about making sure they did not get lost while the herd was being loaded. The problem is, I can't verify any of those animals unless they have my herd tag in them. There are people I know who have sold animals with false pedigrees, and I would not trust a pedigree from them unless the animal matched what I know that line to be.

 

[tunes]

I want to address a couple things.

First, Dawn's comments. Dawn, I agree with you. I would not breed any animal from CL, rescue, pet stores, or anywhere else, regardless of who says they have had champions and whatever from their pet store/CL/rescue offspring. It's not my thing, but neither is run breeding. You aren't going to convince anyone not to do it if they want to.

Second, Tab's comment. I agree. A lost pedigree from a once pedigreed animal is different than breeding a rescue, CL chin, or pet store chin. I also have had, over the years (as have many others) animals from Butler's in breeding. Butler's have never and probably will never provide pedigrees. They think it's too much work and they are primarily a wholesale and pelting herd, so why bother? I knew where they came from though, and could always go back if need be if there was a health issue.

Three, in response to Tara's post. Gary Neubauer spoke in open chat back on CnQ when it was around, many moons ago. He said he separated breeders into three categories - rancher, hobbyist, and backyard breeder. In his opinion, rancher's and hobbyists did the best they could to practice the best breeding practices they could and that backyard breeders are those who breed anything and everything, no matter where the animal came from. He stated (at that time, I don't know if his opinion has changed) that he would not put an animal in his barn that did not come with a pedigree or known lineage, and he would always consider someone who did a backyard breeder.

 

[Spoof]

The Butler's opinion on pedigrees is sadly common. Some of them don't even keep birth dates, too much work seeing they either pelt in prime or wholesale at weaning. THAT is aggravating! So much potential and they don't even bother.

I'm the only vocal person I'm aware of that is open to breeding without pedigrees and regardless of genetics. I'm also the only person I know that openly breeds mute x mute lines unabashedly for many generations. It works for me and keeps me in the industry producing healthy chins (so far). Never had anyone report back to me on any of my lines having a genetic issue but I hope they do if something ever cropped up.

(at that time, I don't know if his opinion has changed) that he would not put an animal in his barn that did not come with a pedigree or known lineage

lol, don't get me wrong, I love Margot and like Gary, but I've also had him lie to my face at a show. That statement is not similar to the ones he has made year after year at shows. If he sees something that he thinks will make him a buck... you bet he'll be on it. They're businesspeople through and through.

However, I do agree with the categories. The people Dawn is most concerned about (rightly so) sadly won't bother getting on this forum and learning to begin with.

 

[Vyxxin]

The people Dawn is most concerned about (rightly so) sadly won't bother getting on this forum and learning to begin with.

Sadly this is not true. I have seen many BYB's on this forum over the years...and the other forum before it. Many have continued to breed even once they were "outed" as such. I'm sure many will remember a gentleman from the Harrisburg area. Claimed he had lost his chins in fire (looking to get sympathy, discounts and freebies in the form of new animals) posting on here. He was banned if I recall correctly and re-registered under a different alias I think. Regardless, after his final banning he went elsewhere. He's still breeding, still "rescuing" and still "rescuing" to breed

Furthermore, I know a few different members CURRENTLY on here, doing about the same. They aren't here to learn I don't think. They're here to look for animals, including in the rescue section. They're here to talk chins...while breeding whatever behind closed doors. They don't show animals. They don't know quality. They may even attend shows, pretend they want to learn...but mostly they just like looking at chins. Like dog hoarders, breeding dogs because they love dogs...not because they love improving dogs. They'll take free dogs, cheap dogs, occasionally they'll buy dogs...they attend dog events and get togethers...they like to chat dogs but don't like to be told they shouldn't be breeding their dogs and they do so behind closed doors.

I get the attitude that we're better trying to educate...but I also truly believe many of these people don't want an education. They want justification.

Oh, and I'm not sure what the actual color of the chin in that last picture is...but I'm sure I could find one pedigreed to breed. I have a hetero ebony that's 1050g+, you can tell she's a hetero ebony. She's not terribly off color even though age has taken it's toll on her. She's pedigreed and I didn't have to pay a whole paycheck for her. Many of my breeders are 800g and over. Size, I've always been told, is one of the easiest traits to breed in. You can always find the qualities you want in a pedigreed animal. Furthermore, finding ONE trait in an unpedigreed chin isn't justification to breed. Most breeders I know will not breed a 3rd place or lower even if it DOES have a pedigree. I've never seen an unpedigreed chinchilla that had a quality my herd couldn't live without. But...if you want as many animals in breeding as you possibly can...then I suppose anything and everything will do.

 

[Pookinaround]

But...if you want as many animals in breeding as you possibly can...then I suppose anything and everything will do.

What is this supposed to mean??? I like the look of my girl plain and simple. I personally want to see for myself the improvement in her color that I can make myself. I never said she was perfect. That is a learning experience that I want to experience for myself. I go to great lengths to obtain quality animals and am not afraid to invest time, travel or money. Currently most of my females are shut off till after Nationals so if this statement is directed towards me I don't understand why...

Here is a female who I bought when I first started who I am getting ready to sell to a pet home and she IS pedigreed...If you ask me I'd prefer the other one hands down...

 

[Vyxxin]

As my time for editing seems to have expired, another point I want to bring up.

I see a LOT of mention on how newbies, those with little experience breeding should not do so w/o a pedigree. Ummm...okay, what about someone who can't even judge quality to any extent because they've never shown an animal? They haven't purchased many high quality animals from reputable sources?

I think there are too many "fine lines" to get outside people, reading this thread, to understand who should and shouldn't breed w/o a pedigree. I feel like I'm talking to my teens. You give them a chore like wash the dishes, and say sometimes it's okay to go a night without (meaning, in your experienced mind, a day every few weeks) and they take it to mean whenever they don't feel like doing the dishes. We have to draw hard lines I feel. Take a stance. Too many people are lax on what they truly believe in or lack the conviction to show what they truly believe in...that we just aren't sending a strong message.

I understand people will do what they want regardless, but I'll have no hand in helping them justify it to themselves. I don't believe breeding without a pedigree is the right thing to do. I don't think anyone should do it, but especially those w/o time in both breeding and showing chinchillas. I don't feel there's a proper excuse to not know your animals inside and out when you have ten or less of them. If you spend that little time with your chinchillas, pick a new hobby. These are MY convictions regarding breeding chinchillas.

ETA- the quoted comment was not to anyone in this thread, it was to EVERYONE wanting to breed as many chins as they can because they have the correct reproductive parts and an empty cage or an opposite sex chin to put them with.

AND- anyone can reference any number of pictures. I can tell you which animal has what qualities. I can tell you which I'd prefer to breed. But that doesn't mean I would breed any of them...if they didn't have a pedigree. Why? For what purpose? You want to see improvement for yourself, you can do that with two first place pedigreed animals. Improve to GSC and that's a heck of an accomplishment. No need to breed ANY unpedigreed animal. I can always compare two animals and usually tell you which would place better on a show table. Doesn't mean EITHER of the two should be bred. Better doesn't mean good enough sometimes.

 

[Pookinaround]

No it doesn't but the point I was trying to make by putting up the 2nd picture is that girl's mother came from your herd Angie so having a strict policy such as you are stating doesn't mean a gorgeous chin every time either. As I stated before ALL but 2 of my animals HAVE pedigrees and are from great lines but sometimes you might just want to see what happens if you try something juuust a little different. You can put two GSC's together and you are certainly not guaranteed to have GSC offspring.

 

[Spoof]

to get outside people, reading this thread, to understand who should and shouldn't breed w/o a pedigree.

This is an interesting point.

I never write a post for anyone other than the people currently involved in any given discussion. Forums are always read at your own risk.

Here we have an OP that I assume has shown, has a good number of chins, has or is developing a good eye that wants to breed an animal out of a known breeding herd. I say yea, breed it. If you don't, please send me pictures and if I like them I'll have them flown down. I need some outcross violets. )

 

[Dreamlite]

I have shown off and on for 8 years. I go to at least 1 show a year and am always a animal handler so I can ask questions and learn more. I have never bred or shown a violet. I usually breed for beige and pink whites. I was looking to possibly get into violets since I had a ebony vc male that I'm growing out and will be showing. Shejust gave birth last night to 2 standard vc kits. I'm not expert on violets but she has great coat, great color and a bright white belly. I'm not a newbie to breeding but it is a new color to me. I realise lost pedigrees have to happen everyonce in a while which is why I figured I would ask before desiding what to do with her.

 

[ticklechin]

I see the future of the chinchilla industry going down the toilet in the USA, it will be all bybs breeding anything will legs and herd improvment chins will be a joke, there will be none.

 

[Vyxxin]

2nd picture is that girl's mother came from your herd Angie so having a strict policy such as you are stating doesn't mean a gorgeous chin every time

Just going to wager a guess that her father is some 497g sapphire? She's definitely bluer than your first pic...but you can pair the nicest GSC with crap and get more crap One parent doesn't make a kit. I cannot help what people pair my chins with. Nor can I prevent people from claiming they purchased chins from me that they haven't (not pointing fingers)

But still, the point has nothing to do with this tread. I'm not about breeding just what's in front of me. It's not about "how nice the animal is" It's about genetics. PART of which are right in front of you. It's also about moral policy.

Here we have an OP that I assume has shown, has a good number of chins, has or is developing a good eye that wants to breed an animal out of a known breeding herd

You know what happens when you assume I'm not sure how much of this we can actually take for granted.