chin with lost pedigree

[Vyxxin]

One of the problems, say I find a chin with malo in my herd. I purchased that chin from SparkleFairy Chins (creative I know). SparkleFairy Chins has been around 25-30yrs in the business. They've got a show record a mile long and all the "newbies" think they're god of all chins. I try "outing" the line. Guess who gets discredited? Best to be polite, tell your close breeder friends so that they can avoid it. We all do this, all of my good breeder friends have said things behind closed doors that I KNEW without asking was to be kept private. But again, you have to be "in the know" to some degree even to get this courtesy.

 

[Dreamlite]

That's where I think the chinchilla community needs to change. I've been breeding for years and have build a nice small herd. I can only go to 1 or 2 shows a year and don't talk well to others. So unless I become 'friends' with the people who know all these details I'm at the mercy of the person who I buy chins from. Its a shame that people can't see passed the reputations. I have bought chins from 3 different breeders that have come down with malo and it has made me very distrustful of any chin breeder.

 

[ticklechin]

I agree with you 100%, I can count on one hand how many breeders I would actually trust to buy a chin from.

 

[Riven]

What I call the "big chin world" is full of gossip and rumors. I've heard tons of them about me myself that have come back to me. I think in the end your actions and your reputation will outweigh the gossip and rumors. Malo is a part of breeding, how you handle it is what makes you different.

I culled out two entirely different violet lines, one was top national quality lines and it just broke me heart to do it, but the malo popped up, I told the breeder and she rearranged her lines as well. The second line was terrible, an entire line that went back to one chin all came up with signs after a move. Some of the chins were not here and I notified the person who had them, instead of culling them they just "watched them" then eventually passed them on to another breeder with no mention of the malo. The sad part is there are too many people like that, and too many people who breed only for the "money" or the "name".

 

[jags]

Let me just say that all chinchilla herds have the possibility of generic problems. No one is immune from it as there is no way I know of to test for any of it and the cost is to high for anyone to develop such testing. All you can do is cull to try to get away from problems and they will still crop up every now and then. And by culling I do not mean just removing them from breeding or selling them to someone else to deal with. They need to be euthanized and how many are willing to do that. I have done it when it was pretty obvious that they carried the problem, once eliminating an entire line that I had high hopes for from a male that I paid a great deal for as a herd improvement male. I could have spilled it on the forums and told everyone I knew this animal carried genetic issues even though I could not prove any thing. Now what would have been gained? The breeder would not be happy and to his knowledge as far as I know he tried to sell me one of his best animals to improve my herd out of a line that had many top show animals which were the foundation of many other herds that showed no problems that I have ever herd about. So now I would have discredited this breeder with no real proof other than what I saw on my ranch. Say I found others out of this line that showed the same issues. Would these other breeders be willing to cull their animals based on what my animals showed? If not then the lines would now be promoted under a different ranch brand. Would other breeders stop buying from the original breeder? From other breeders that had this line? After all he was winning all the top show awards at all the shows.

 

[Encantadora]

I euthed a beautiful violet show winner due to teeth. Fortunately she had not yet bred for me. I wonder if she was from the same lines. It was a crying shame.

 

[Vyxxin]

Mine were all standards, "herd improvement" variety. Good show lines, awesome looking animals. But again, in the same boat as JAGS. What would doing a public bashing do? Make the breeder (who was bigger, wiser, and longer term than me) angry with me? Discredit ME? Most likely. So what'd I do? I mentioned to anyone I knew who worked with those lines that I had malo pop up. I gave them the suspected carrier ancestors and told them to watch those lines. Sure I couldn't prove it genetic, we rarely rarely can. We can assume they're genetic based on the age it showed up...the history of the animal (diet, injury, etc.) and the history of the lines (other animals with same ancestors also showing malo) and make a genetic ruling. BUT, we can't prove it. So it makes it difficult. I did mention to the breeder, and he really didn't seem surprised by it. Simply offered replacement animals, one of which confirmed my theory of a tainted line by having the same ancestors and the same malo. I culled, and yes, like JAGS said...I humanely euthanized. What good does it do to ANYONE (the future buyer, the future offspring, and the animal which clearly has malo) to allow it to live and breed?

As I originally said, if more WERE willing to cull...sure, genetic problems wouldn't be eradicated...but they'd be reduced. Regardless of knowledge, and gossip, and what we could spread by word of mouth...the best measure is still and always will be "self policing" of the issue. Sadly MOST are not willing to take the loss (and it's always a great one).

 

[ticklechin]

I agree with JAGS, cull means CULL, not selling the animals or giving them away. That means taking a loss, that does not mean selling your crud to pet owners, other breeders, wholesalers, CL or wherever. Malo is not a dirty word and should not be treated like one, you have chins you have a chance of malo, period, its how breeders deal with it needs to change, and that means CULL. If you can't handle a loss, get another hobby or job.

 

[Godins Chinchillas]

I agree with Dawn and Randy. Cull, cull, cull. Ange, I don't think negatively of breeders who have malo. You can only do so much when it pops up. Doesn't mean I won't go back to that breeder if they had a case pop up. It's hard. Malo happens everywhere. I just hope if people have bought my animals they would be kind enough to tell me. Some of my Shoots lines are over 5 yrs old. Anyhow-like I said I personally don't go behind their back talking about it. Malo is devastating to anyone's herd.

 

[Vyxxin]

I told the breeder, I didn't think less of their animals but DID question their breeding practices after their less than concerned response. Some of my Longenecker lines go back to "the beginning" MY beginning...some of them are 8, going on 9yrs old! I'm still breeding a few of my "originals" and just now retiring some of them. I don't think badly of breeders that have malo pop up, otherwise I'd have nowhere reputable to buy from. BUT I DO think badly of breeders who have it and either don't care or don't acknowledge they have it. I cull. Everyone knows it, it's no big secret. You dont think that in itself has caused a black mark on my reputation?!? It has. Putting it plainly, I KNOW it has but, alas, I will not suffer any creature the torture of malo. Put it down, put the whole line down, warn the owners of offspring. Offer to replace. That's about what one can responsibly do. If you go back to my original comments on this thread, one of the things I stressed was beign willing to "deal" with ANY genetic issues in the appropriate way should they pop up. Problem being, too many people disagree on what's an appropriate way to deal with it As far as going behind one's back, I don't try to badmouth people. I really don't in that respect. When I had malo pop up, I knew other breeders working with the same lines. If the original breeder would've been the type to notify, sure, I'd have kept my mouth shut. The breeder wasn't, I'm sure of it. SOOOO...I kindly warned other breeders by saying "I have several animals with THESE ancestors all come down with malo, I know you breed animals from these lines so please keep an eye out. The other lines have proven safe, and their animals are top notch, just avoid these ancestors when possible" I knew the breeder had what I needed to start a good breeding herd, I also knew this breeder had lines with malo and had I chose to not recognize that early on my whole herd would be rampant with it by now as one was a male and I breed in runs.

An ETA to the judgy- I have pelted chinchillas, it's a pretty well known fact. What is NOT a well known fact is that many that were pelted (if not all) were casualties. Death from disease, euthed for malo or other serious abnormalities, beaten (to death) by cagemates...and yes, we pelted them. We haven't pelted any chin in quite some time, but I come from a hunting, fishing, trapping, farming community. Some things are a way of life here in the country. My chinchillas, especially those who've been with me a LONG time are my buddies, they're my pets and very much loved. They're given treats, special toys and fleece goodies...but when raised in such a community, we don't "waste" much when it comes to animals. When they died, they were pelted. Some of my beloved were made into roses. I've been ridiculed, I've been blacklisted, but at least I'm open and honest about my practices. That's all I need to sleep at night

 

[Encantadora]

I've seen some really beautiful fur items at shows. I personally would have a hard time putting an animals face to the fur but I'd consider buying a fur item from someone else's herd. I just get too attached. I considered it for the euth girl but didn't.

 

[Godins Chinchillas]

Why would you be blacklisted for pelting them out? It's such a shame not too. There fur is gorgeous. I pelted a few of mine. I'm hoping to get enough to have a teddy made. In fact I plan on showing my very first pelt at Nationals this year. Grant it she wasn't completely primed before she developed issues but she is still gorgeous just the same.

 

[Riven]

I have pelted animals put down for illness, disease, malo, or casualty loss due to other things like massive injury if the pelt is good. I have a bag of them I need to send in. If not it's a waste of beautiful fur! I have a couple of my favorite animals I pelted when I lost them and someday I'll have something made of the pelts. I don't see what is wrong with that, even pet owners should understand that there is a difference between someone who breeds to pelt (which is rare in the US anymore) and someone who pelts an animal who is ill/injured/ etc. I understand that some people have their views on fur and if they don't believe an animal should be killed for their fur, I understand that is their view, but in the case of many smaller breeders it's about pelting after death, not death for pelting.

 

[Vyxxin]

For any of us it would be impracticle to pelt for profit. Even if we pelted our BEST animal the pelt would bring less than we could sell the animal for at pet prices. BUT, there again is my point people breeding crap animals, selling crap animals...it's always the same thing. People sell their crap. I'm not talking about selling the wedge shaped chin off to a pet only home. I'm talking about selling the malo lines to other KNOWN breeders and not mentioning the malo. Crap breeders realize they get a better price for a live chin...than well, a dead one It's not about bettering chins, it's about making a quick buck

 

[Riven]

The pelt breeders wouldn't even have crap chins because they couldn't get a good pelt off of them! LOL

Unfortunately there are a lot of people who are just about making a dollar, I don't know why they think chins is the place to do it... I think in 2011 I made about $400, of course that's not paying myself for any work I did, lol. Last year I took a loss when I sold the majority of my herd.

 

[Spoof]

I'm talking about selling the malo lines to other KNOWN breeders and not mentioning the malo.

If you look at it from a pelting perspective, if the line maloccludes at 3 who cares? You pelt most of them at one year and by 3 the females have produced 10-12 kits and you pelt them if/when they start looking sickly. If those pelts get you $20 more than your next best, of course they are going to keep using those lines.

Many of these animals don't start maloccluding until they are 4-5 years old. Few old-time breeders kept them that long, it's just very recently we've started expecting everything to live and be healthy 15-25 years. It will take the smaller breeders as a whole 20-30 years to shift from short term, excellent pelt animals to long lived dual-purpose animals. By dual purpose I mean animals that both show well and live a very long time as pets.

I don't remember if I've answered this thread, but I take the risk and breed anything I think looks amazing. In all honesty I've never experienced an issue with an unknown line like that. Some of the ones I have pedigrees on from well known breeders... definitely.

 

[ticklechin]

but I take the risk and breed anything I think looks amazing

And this is Ok when other breeders buy from you or is it just when you sell to pet people? You would breed CL chins, rescues, pet store or whatever, is that what I am reading?

 

[Spoof]

You would breed CL chins, rescues, pet store or whatever, is that what I am reading?

Yes and my answer to this hasn't changed in 15 years, and you always ask, and I always say yea, so what? I'll take them, in 3 generations have more pedigree than you get with a ranch animal and win at show with them.

And this is Ok when other breeders buy from you or is it just when you sell to pet people?

The breeders who have purchased from me have never had an issue with it. I provide pedigrees ahead of time and an often very lengthy ramble about the genetics involved in each animal.

I don't provide pedigrees to pet people. I also don't sell new lines to them. I haven't seen an unknown worth bringing into my herd in about 5 years but if I did, you bet I'd snatch it up. Petco, craigslist, who cares. They all come from the same sources. Heck, Ronda wholesaled Blue Diamonds and carriers for several years before she knew what they were. Someone got some interesting genetics in their pets....

 

[ticklechin]

So just like the threads trend, its WAY OK to breed whatever without a pedigree as long as it looks good. So what? I don't have to answer that, its pretty obvious what I think about it.

 

[RDZCRanch]

The threads trend has not been "breed whatever, if it doesn't have a pedigree, it's ok!" That is Tara's personal opinion and it has been for years, she doesn't reflect my personal opinion or the opinions of most other breeders I have talked to.

We are saying that if a chinchilla HAS a pedigree (note, this is NOT an unpedigreed chinchilla from an unknown source) and that pedigree is lost, it doesn't mean the animal should never be bred. Say I've bred a female two or three times and all she had were males that I couldn't use, so I sold them. She chews up her pedigree and I decide this female doesn't work in my herd so I want to sell her. I have no pedigree for her and can't get in contact with those I sold the offspring to for her pedigree information and the original breeder is now out of the business and their records/pedigrees are with a new breeder that can't make any sense of the written records. Based on what other people are saying, this female that I know the history on and remember who I bought her from and when and how much I paid for her and possibly even show winnings, should not be sold for breeding because I don't have a physical copy of a piece of paper.

We are not condoning running out to your nearest pet store and buying an animal without a pedigree. We are not saying that pedigrees do not matter, but we are saying that it is a piece of paper. The pedigree does not guarantee health or even show a background free of genetic malady. A pedigree is not some golden ticket that approves an animal for breeding. What is most important in determining a breeding animal is knowing who bred it, what their breeding practices are, and the qualities of the individual animal. In the end, you are trusting the word of the person who bred the animal, so you need to make sure they are trustworthy. It is a good idea to have pedigrees when you are starting out to know what is and isn't related. When you've been in for a bit and have a little "know how" it's not the end of the world or horrible to buy and use an animal with a LOST pedigree.

I have two older females in breeding that have lost pedigrees. One came from Furball ranch and her pedigree fell too close to her cage during the transition to Bowen and she ate all but the sire's information. She was put into breeding at Bowen and then I purchased her and put her into breeding here. She has had several healthy kits, all who are adults now and healthy. I even have her grandson here who is almost a year. Based on what I've read here, I should just cull this entire line though. I don't know enough about their history so I'm probably creating problem chinchillas and ruining years of breeding practices.