Chin dropped off at rescue -- owner wants back when he gets back on feet?

[Riven]

There are things I just don't understand. From the past, not just this case, I've found that you tend to leave out things or change things. I recall seeing pics of a prairie dog and you saying it's not near the chins, but in one picture you posted before that there was a chin in the run right above it. With that said, what does the contract for petfinder have to do with this sale? Petfinder is for rescues and shelters, this was not a rescue, it was a pedigreed chin from a breeder. You say the contract was that way because of petfinder, so you use the same contract for your rescues and your animals that you breed, but you say that they are basically separate entities.

I don't know, like Claire said, this thread is hard to read and understand and I had troubles understanding the non-flowing email conversation in the first post. It sounds to me like you're running your breeders like your rescues. I in no way consider this a rescue chin, they sent it back per your contract, I guess to me a rescue is a chin you know nothing about.

 

[greychins]

But in their mind, no matter what happens, its still their pet.

I understand your viewpoint, but I would have to disagree. The point of surrendering an animal to a rescue is that you are giving it up -- it's no longer yours. That's just my viewpoint though.

There are things I just don't understand. From the past, not just this case, I've found that you tend to leave out things or change things. I recall seeing pics of a prairie dog and you saying it's not near the chins, but in one picture you posted before that there was a chin in the run right above it. With that said, what does the contract for petfinder have to do with this sale? Petfinder is for rescues and shelters, this was not a rescue, it was a pedigreed chin from a breeder. You say the contract was that way because of petfinder, so you use the same contract for your rescues and your animals that you breed, but you say that they are basically separate entities.

I don't know, like Claire said, this thread is hard to read and understand and I had troubles understanding the non-flowing email conversation in the first post. It sounds to me like you're running your breeders like your rescues. I in no way consider this a rescue chin, they sent it back per your contract, I guess to me a rescue is a chin you know nothing about.

May I ask why you feel the need to bring up the prairie dog/chin situation here? How is that relevant? The prairie dog/chin situation, which I completely explained at the time ,and feel that I do not need to do again, occurred when I lived in an apartment. I have been out of that apartment for the last 2, almost 3 years -- that's hardly recent. Further, it was one mistake. I would hate to think that by my making one mistake, people would start to think that I can never do anything right. After all, the situation was corrected and nothing similar has happened since.

I dislike your statement that I tend "to leave things out or change things." Really? Based on what, that one mistake, which I quickly corrected? Does that make you think that, because of that, now I must be lying and leaving information out about everything? I would hope one mistake would not have that kind of far-reaching effect.

Regardless, that's irrelevant.

The emails I posted in my first post were complete. Maybe they don't look it, but they are. I agree, they do not flow great, they are confusing. But that's real life, that's what was honestly said. They are there 100%, whether you choose to believe that or not.

The Petfinder contract has nothing to do with this sale. I was merely stating that part of the reason we have the contract, in the first place, had to do with petfinder. It was merely a digression and that's it. How it has become an issue, I do not know.

As for me "running my breeders like my rescues" -- I'm not sure I understand this. Do you mean because I ask both adoptive homes and people buying pedigreed chins to sign a contract? If so, it's simply for concern that the "breeders" (as you put it) stay in good homes. Probably 90% of the pedigreed chins we sell go to "pet" homes. If I was selling to a well known breeder, I would not worry about the contract, but for the average person buying a chin, I prefer the peace of mind that the chin will be cared for properly. If that's "running my breeders like my rescues," then I guess I do. But I see nothing wrong with that.

If you read my last post, I stated this:

so to clarify --> this is a pedigreed chin that was returned to us, the breeder, not a chin that was given to the rescue.

the point -- I agree that this is not a rescue chin. I apologize for my poor wording of the post and thread title. The thread should have been titled "Pedigreed chin returned to original breeder, but owner wants it back later." But, as I can't change the thread title, when I realized that the title did not accurately reflect the situation, I could not change it.

I guess to me a rescue is a chin you know nothing about.

I agree, to a point. I don't think that's necessarily always the case though. There are chins we get in where the people don't know how old they are or any health history or anything... those are definitely rescues. But we also get in some rescues that people can tell us where they got them, the type of food and treats they've been feeding, if the chin has ever been to the vet, what the chin has been to the vet for, how old the chin is, how long they've had the chin, if there were previous owners before them (versus them getting it from a breeder/petstore).... it's still a rescue... but we know information about it.

 

[Claire D]

There are chins we get in where the people don't know how old they are or any health history or anything... those are definitely rescues.

No, they are not rescues. They are re-homed chins - the taking in of chinchillas because the previous owner can no longer keep them.

Definition of rescue:
removal from danger or harm: an act or instance of saving somebody or something from a dangerous or harmful situation.

Your example does not fit with the above definition.

But we also get in some rescues that people can tell us where they got them, the type of food and treats they've been feeding, if the chin has ever been to the vet, what the chin has been to the vet for, how old the chin is, how long they've had the chin, if there were previous owners before them (versus them getting it from a breeder/petstore).... it's still a rescue... but we know information about it.

As above, this is not, by definition, a rescue.


I know some will see these comments as pedantic but, in general, these types of threads (on all sorts of forums) are the reason people become confused about the differences between rescue, re-homing, or (in some instances) a hoarder or broker (i.e taking in chins for free and selling them on for a price or breeding them for profit).

I've heard people say "so and so is a rescue" when, in fact, they are nothing more than a broker, taking chins in for free (or even a 're-homing fee'!) and then selling them on for profit - these kinds of people give true rescues a bad name. The same goes for 'rescues' who take in chins with unknown histories and breed them for profit.

 

[Godofgods]

I understand your viewpoint, but I would have to disagree. The point of surrendering an animal to a rescue is that you are giving it up -- it's no longer yours. That's just my viewpoint though.

I get that. But the emotional connection is still their whether you have the pet or not. Not that dissimilar from having a kid move out i would imagine. Just because hes not around anymore, doesn't mean he still ain't your kid. Just because they had to give the pet up, that emotional connection is still their. Theirfor it always feel like its still their chin.

 

[tunes]

Godofgods - The "emotional connection" wasn't there until the words "show the chin" came out. Re-read everything. They saw show chin and thought $$$.

 

[greychins]

Definition of rescue:
removal from danger or harm: an act or instance of saving somebody or something from a dangerous or harmful situation.

Going with this definition, then would you say that most of the animals at breed rescues should be simply called "rehomed animals"? I think the average person getting a dog from, say, "Dog-Breed" Rescue, thinks of the dog as a rescue, even if "Dog-Breed" Rescue tells the person that the dog came in as an owner surrender. According to your definition, this group would not be considered a rescue. Yet, I would never think to go adopt a dog from a Dog-Breed-Rehoming-Service. It's semanics, yeah, but I feel like it's also being very nitpicky on what is a rescue.

According to your definition, which I agree is a rescue (but I think could be expanded)... I can't think of a single "rescue" that fits that. The thing I think of is how Animal Cops goes in, gets the animals out, and turns those animals over to the humane society, which adopts them out. But, in that sense, neither Animal Cops nor the humane society would be a "rescue" itself because they, themselves, did not singlehandedly remove the animals from danger, nurse them back to health, and adopt them out. It would seem that there are very few "actual" rescues out there, as it's quite the task for one group to remove the animals from a bad situation (which, if it's that bad, could require police or law inforcement involvement), and then care for them, nurse them back to health, and adopt them out. Usually, I would think that's several agencies/groups working together, rather than one larger "rescue" organization.

Theirfor it always feel like its still their chin.

I understand what you are saying, but I don't think a kid leaving for college is the same thing as giving a chin to a rescue organization. But I do get what you're saying about the emotional connection. The thing is, though, they can feel like it's their chin, but that doesn't make it so that 5 years later, if the chin's adopted to a new home, they can go to the new home and say "hey, I want my chin back."

 

[Twilight Chinchillas]

I haven't read the entire thread, but if I take an unwanted animal in, house it, feed it, whether it came from less than desirable circumstances, or not I consider it a rescue.
With all the improper care out there of chinchillas (we see it every day) I could very well be doing that animal a favor.
If it was an animal bred here, well that does change things so yes would not go as far to call that animal a rescue, but any animal I know nothing about, yes.
Not all rescues go and seize animals, a lot are surrendered. Like for example the local pound. Some are surrendered, some found, but when I adopt that dog, I consider that animal a rescue.

 

[tunes]

I think the problem with throwing the word rescue around so much is it gets abused. For instance, in this situation, it's not a "rescue" in any sense of the word. You just had a chin returned to you that someone bought and no longer wanted to keep. If that's a true rescue, then I'm running one here because over the years I've taken back several animals that people could not keep that I bred, the latest would be two boys that had already switched homes once, and then the next home couldn't keep them either. I don't get it, it's two chins, not two mountain lions, but whatever. That's a topic for another day.

Then there are the folks who "rescue" chins from pet stores and want everybody to pat them on the back for it. That's not a rescue, that's a purchase. I have purchased rats from a pet store. I never called it a "rescue." I bought them because I wanted them.

I don't know that the term rescue applies in a lot of cases, but I'm not sure that it needs to be so distinct of a definition either. I do think that in general a rescue is an animal that has been removed from a dangerous/neglectful situation. No food, disgusting cages, etc. A rescue is not a chin that needs a dust bath or one that is turned over to someone simply because they don't want it anymore. Not in my book at least.

I just think too many people are looking for pats on the back with their "rescueing" rather than doing it because they actually care about the animals. I in no way mean that this encompasses ALL rescues. Many rescues, or let's call them rehoming centers for a more accurate description, pop up out of nowhere, declare themselves a rescue when they've never even HAD a chin before, and hold their hands out for freebies. Um, no? If you are going to run a rescue, then you need to be prepared to have that stuff on hand, to pay vet bills, and so on. Just like as a breeder, I don't expect people to supply me with free chins, free pellets, free hay, and free cages.

I know that was off topic from the original post, but seems to be the way the thread is drifting now, so I addressed that topic.

 

[BooBoo*TheKiddo*]

I agree with others, they have returned the chin to you, she is yours to keep or adopt out. Whichever you decide.

As far as them not being able to care for her properly, yet they will buy her food and other supplies while she is in your care is a bit contradicting. If they can't afford her, they can't afford her.

As far as the rescue debate:
A chin you bred and sold, would not be a rescue.

To me a rescue is taking in any animal in need. Say someone had a chin from a breeder that is no longer breeding and they wouldn't care for it any longer. They surrendered it to a rescue near them. Or even if the chin was bought from the pet store years ago and the owner couldn't care for it anymore.
To me, that is a rescue. If they couldn't care for the chin then who knows what would have became of it. Sold on Craiglists for a quick buck to someone who doesn't know the difference in a chinchilla and a rabbit. Bought for a small child as a cute fuzzy easter present where it was left running around the room and a dog got it.

So in my opinion, taking in an owner surrender is the same thing as a rescue. Just because the animal isn't extremely ill or half dead, doesn't mean it isn't a rescue. To that animal who maybe hasn't had enough food to eat in the last week, you are rescuing it.

 

[Riven]

The "emotional connection" wasn't there until the words "show the chin" came out. Re-read everything. They saw show chin and thought $$$.

I disagree, the first email says that maybe they could get her back later.

So in my opinion, taking in an owner surrender is the same thing as a rescue. Just because the animal isn't extremely ill or half dead, doesn't mean it isn't a rescue. To that animal who maybe hasn't had enough food to eat in the last week, you are rescuing it.

The reason they contacted the breeder was because it was in the contract, not because they needed to send their chin to a rescue. Honestly if rescues are flying off the shelves everywhere else there must be some sort of deficiency in this area for them. I've had people drive to my house from Denver ( 5 +hours each way ) to drop off chins they could no longer care for, and one of them I had here before nearly a year. Nothing wrong with him, sweetest chin ever, just that no one was looking for a rescue. With rescues full, I don't see why it would be un-reasonable to think that a chin maybe still be there several month later. There are several things in this thread that I just don't get, like what the age of the people who had the chin where and things like that.

If they couldn't care for the chin then who knows what would have became of it.

I'm also going to guess that since they got this chin this spring they didn't "check in" either, they could have eaten the chin and chances are the breeder wouldn't know. Most people don't stay in touch with the people who they get animals from, so really you rarely do know.

 

[addictedtochins]

Definition of rescue:
removal from danger or harm: an act or instance of saving somebody or something from a dangerous or harmful situation.

I think it does apply in this situation because the owner stated he could keep the room cool enough for the chin as well as being in a bad financial situation and not having enough time. So that could mean the chin doesn't have a proper diet incl. sticks housing, clean cage, clean water, vet care. It would be different if he had stated they lost interest in the animal

 

[ticklechin]

Did the owner ever sign the surrender form?

 

[greychins]

They never signed the form, no. It was emailed to them both by myself and the people who picked up the chin, but it was never signed.

Regarding the possibility that the chin might be at the rescue a few months down the road - that's very possible. I did tell them that if she was up for adoption when they were ready, they could adopt her. But I see that as a bit different than actually holding onto her and not putting her up for adoption on the thought that they might come get her at some point in the future.

 

[ticklechin]

If it has not been signed, you may have issues if you adopt the chin out, they did not give up ownership yet, they could say that you are just boarding the chin and want it back or could sue you for the amount they paid for the chin, the courts won't make you give the chin back, but they could award the amount of the chin. I personally would tell the owner to get lost and take my chances.

 

[Claire D]

According to your definition, this group would not be considered a rescue. Yet, I would never think to go adopt a dog from a Dog-Breed-Rehoming-Service. It's semanics, yeah, but I feel like it's also being very nitpicky on what is a rescue.

According to your definition, which I agree is a rescue

It's not my definition - it is a dictionary definition.

I gave my definition in the first post of the thread I linked to above and I think Peggy has pretty much summed up why I am so pedantic about the (mis)use of the word:

I think the problem with throwing the word rescue around so much is it gets abused.

The chins ultimately suffer and the fly-by-nights give true rescues a bad name.


To clarify, here is my personal belief, quoted from the earlier thread:

Personally I think that:
a rescue service is one in which knowledgeable individuals dedicate their time, resources, and emotions into rescuing (i.e. saving from harm or poor conditions), treating (with veterinary intervention/supervision/assistance), rehabilitating, re-homing, and providing a life-long home to any chinchilla which requires such help.
They also provide education and support to people on all aspects of chinchilla care, health, and husbandry.

.................................................


For me, there is a clear distinction between a rescue & a re-homing service. - a rescue is as I described above and they take all and sundry in terms of health, background, and current medical state - a re-homing centre is just that: they take healthy chins and re-home them, often for a fee. Sometimes those set-ups border on being dealers.



We have seen many "new" rescues set up over the years - newcomers to chins who have no idea about chinchillas and their care, let alone have the knowledge and skills to take on ill or injured or disabled chinchillas. They get out of their depth and cry for help, often when it is too late or they ignore basic advice and help - the chins suffer and die.

The reason I initially raised the issue in this thread was not to have a debate about what is or is not a rescue (there's a thread for that already!) but my original point seems to be lost in the melee now. :facepalm:

 

[greychins]

Personally I think that:
a rescue service is one in which knowledgeable individuals dedicate their time, resources, and emotions into rescuing (i.e. saving from harm or poor conditions), treating (with veterinary intervention/supervision/assistance), rehabilitating, re-homing, and providing a life-long home to any chinchilla which requires such help.
They also provide education and support to people on all aspects of chinchilla care, health, and husbandry.

I agree with what is said here.... the only point that I think remains at issue (for lack of a better word) is the whole "emotions into rescuing (i.e. saving from harm or poor conditions)" part. I do think it is rescuing if animals are taken from a place where they are being harmed. But I also think it's a rescue if it's coming from a bad situation/poor conditions. Just one instance -- we got in a chin that was eating a diet of potato chips, popcorn, chocolate, and with a bottle of beer hanging on the cage. I'm not kidding. Now, this was someone who'd contacted me saying they needed to surrender their chin to the rescue, and I went and picked up the chin. This was an owner surrender, but to me, I would consider this "poor conditions" and so this chin was a "rescue" to me.

I think the definition of "poor conditions" is maybe where I see wiggle room. What do you consider poor conditions? It may be better or worse (or simply different) than my view, or someone else's view. For me, a chin being fed the wrong food, given the wrong treats, sitting in a cage that's cleaned once a month... I see that as poor conditions. But I could also see a chin that highly needs a dust bath and has no food/water in the cage as poor conditions. Maybe someone else sees poor conditions as a chin being given wrong food and unhealthy treats, though otherwise is ok. Maybe poor conditions are a chin living in grime covered in its own urine and feces. I'm not trying to start an argument, I just think "poor conditions" can span so many different situations....

 

[halfstache]

Just one instance -- we got in a chin that was eating a diet of potato chips, popcorn, chocolate, and with a bottle of beer hanging on the cage. I'm not kidding.

what's wrong with some people? :facepalm: I see terrible things all the time, but this kind of stuff just makes me sick. Glad they surrendered their chin....

 

[liewwan]

Not having to read the entire thread, but I totally understand your situation.
Individuals that fully surrenders their chin(s) (not purchased/adopted from me) must sign the release form stating that they have no rights to the chins once the form is signed. At that moment they will be treated as a rescue in my books. There are chins that I have found on craigslist that obviously needs to be taken out of the situation they are in, those I also consider as rescues. Should a chin I have sold from my own line, than those would be considered as a surrender/rehome.
Regardless of which situation, you're SOL if you surrender. Once in my care, it's up to me to decide what to do with the chin, hold them back (if from my line), rehome (from my line) or adopt out. I have in 2 situations advised the individuals that I'll be more than happy to give them back only if you are back on your feet and prior to being adopted out. However those 2 individuals I know will provide a great home to the chins and I have no issues watching them. All in all, it seems as though the family you're dealing with is making the right decision on surrendering due to their situation. However battling with their emotions. Personally with or without the signed form, keep that email filed cuz that's evidence of the actual surrender. Now down the road should they get back on their feet, they can come back and get him but will still have to pay for the adoption fee. Good luck

 

[greychins]

If it has not been signed, you may have issues if you adopt the chin out, they did not give up ownership yet, they could say that you are just boarding the chin and want it back or could sue you for the amount they paid for the chin, the courts won't make you give the chin back, but they could award the amount of the chin. I personally would tell the owner to get lost and take my chances.

They could say I'm boarding the chin, but they wouldn't have anything to back up that statement. There's nothing on my website that says I board, the only thing close is that it says that I charge a $5 fee per week if a chin is not picked up after a 30 days. I would sure hope this wouldn't get to the point where they would sue.... at this moment, they haven't bothered me for several days, and I'm not planning on emailing them....so I'm hoping this is the end of this... but who knows. Some people are nuts.

liewwan -- I agree that the best thing for these people was to surrender. While they did have enough food, hay, dust, etc to last them some time... if they can't keep the house cool enough and are never home... that's just a bad combination there. If the air already isn't on cool enough, and the power went out, and they weren't home to notice... that might be it for the chin. I understand that they love the chin and would rather keep it, I mean, we get some people dropping off critters that cry -- cause they care about the critter and want to keep it, but they ultimately realize that it's better for the animal to be somewhere other than with them. And I have no problem adopting out to them again if they do get back on their feet. And say this chin was still here, they could adopt her. But we'll see how this all goes.

 

[mydoublechins]

I can sympathize with your dilemma, but being nice may only make this situation worse. It may actually help the couple move on without the chin to just let them know you will make sure the chin is fine and sever all ties.

Either they are naive or emotional about giving their chin up but I feel what they are potentially asking of you is unreasonable.

I agree with everything POOKINAROUND has said and if she is channeling Judge Judy to boot, let her assist in a letter! Any court is going to be satisfied with you giving them options and time to respond. Failure to do so appropriately will result in the chin belonging to you to do with as you see fit.

I agree with Riven's last post, however, I find the delivery a bit abrupt in his responses. That is an aside but I guess the "you have to be cruel to be kind" approach might apply here.

They must surrender the chin full stop. If you decide to keep/show/breed her then you may say to them that they are welcome to stay in touch from time to time but that you reserve the right to keep the chin when they are on their feet if you choose to do so. And don't feel bad about it if you do choose to do this.

You are not a bank nor lending institution and any and all expenses for that chin you are now taking on and accept responsibility for that. In fact in Judge Judy's letter (hehe) I would state if any vet bills are incurred for anything whilst in your care whilst they are responding to your letters, that the chin will not be relinquished back to them whilst they are taking time to respond. You might also charge a boarding fee during the response time so that they have to pay the boarding fee if they do relent and decide to pick her up and keep her.

Good luck, this is proof that nice guy's finish last! What a headache!!!!!

Kindest Regards,

Mel (and DUMBO and FRED my new baby chinnies xxxxxx)